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You took the bonus - now what?

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by kirby, Apr 4, 2005.

    Apr 4, 2005
  1. kirby

    kirby Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Healthcare
    Location:
    USA
    OK, say you deposited $50 and got a $100 bonus. You've got a x20 playtrhough so you're going to have to wager $3000 without losing that $150. Rules probably prohibit or restrict the use of blackjack, video poker or craps to meet that requirement.

    I can sometimes get up $1000 or maybe $1500 on slots before I'm broke.
    I question whether anyone can actually consistently outlast the house odds, but if you have a strategy, I'd love to hear about it.
     
  2. Apr 4, 2005
  3. Vesuvio

    Vesuvio Dormant account

    Location:
    UK
    With a 20x playthrough on slots, assuming a 5% house edge, you're expected to lose everything (in this case $150) i.e. 3000x0.05=150. That could be why you're struggling to make a profit ;)
     
  4. Apr 4, 2005
  5. realwtfsup

    realwtfsup Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Laborer
    Location:
    Tacoma
    I take bonus to gamble with. Gamble to me means I might lose all my money =)

    Have had some luck especially with my firt two Lucky Nugget and The Gaming Club. It is a slots only bonus deposit $50 get $200. Cashed out $1500 total at both.
     
  6. Apr 4, 2005
  7. Pinababy69

    Pinababy69 RIP Lisa

    Occupation:
    Crusader
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario - Canada
    Sometimes I win with a bonus, but more often than not I lose it all. I'd say I win about 10% of the time if I'm lucky. And I am a strictly slots player, don't play anything but slots.
     
  8. Apr 4, 2005
  9. Nomad

    Nomad Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    There is a way to make these profitable if you can handle the variance. Essentially, you bet everything on one hand of blackjack, red/black on roulette, or some other essentially 50/50 bet. Check the T&C, but some places will allow you to play these games, just not to count them towards the WR. At this point, you've either doubled or busted. If you double, play through the WR and cashout. If not, you're out a hundred bucks. Basically, the effect is cutting the WR in half. If you wanted to, you could go further than just doubling. Just a personal preference. This strategy is not one that I devised, but it does work mathematically. How well it workds depends on the terms of the particular bonus.

    [edit] Due to the variance, this requires a substancial bankroll, especially if you expect to try to make this significantly profitable. A somewhat smaller bankroll is ok if your goal is to simply increase your odds a bit, but not to necessarily guarantee a long term profit. [/edit]
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2005
  10. Apr 4, 2005
  11. buck

    buck Experienced Member

    Location:
    Midwest USA
    Bonus WR

    If you can get some decent build up even playing BJ most MG will have some double line non jackpot slots that pay close to even money. Have used this in the past. But normally skip the bonus. Be careful that specific games are restricted from WR but no prohibited.

    Buck
     
  12. Apr 4, 2005
  13. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Well, I only deposit when I get a bonus, and I make profit 9/10 months.
    So I guess the answer is yes, I can consistently outlast the house odds.

    I don't have a specific strategy, and I very rarely play Blackjack or Video Poker that so many others seem to advocate (even when it is allowed in WR).
    The main thing is don't lose too much on any one game, but quit when you're ahead, and switch to a different game.
    This should especially be applied to slots. I know we all think 'the feature hasn't hit for ages - it MUST come soon!' But when you've done 400 spins of Thunderstruck without ever hitting 3-Rams, and lost half your bankroll - you are WAY past the point you should have stopped!
    I recently did a deposit $100, $300 bonus, 20x WR = $8000 on MG slots only - and came out the other side with $475 in the bank (no mega-wins). So it can be done! Mind you - it took me over a month! ;)

    Good luck! :thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2005
  14. Apr 4, 2005
  15. Black21Jack

    Black21Jack Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Courier driver
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    It took over a month to make a $475.00 profit? and you had to risk your tiny $100.00 deposit with $8000.00 in wagers? Holy cow! no wonder I stay away from bonuses.
     
  16. Apr 4, 2005
  17. kirby

    kirby Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Healthcare
    Location:
    USA
    Thanks to all for the comments thus far. I had thought about the all-in bet to boost the bankroll so it's interesting to see that for some it works. Need to check the T&C as backjack is the only "table" game tht I know how to play.

    The other comments go to my ambivalence towrds the bonuses. It is gambling and, yeah, expecting to lose it all is part of the game, but the deck seemed stacked against us (so to speak) at 20x. Seems like a lot of work for something "free."

    Thanks again
     
  18. Apr 4, 2005
  19. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Well it wasnt like that was the only casino I used or that played it every day for a month!
    I usually play 10-15 different casinos per month. But I do stick to very low stakes as I recall, I think that $8K took over 13,000 spins!
    I love gambling, but hate losing my mission is just to finish every month in the black.
    (PS: Actually it was $375 profit - I can see maths is not your strong point! :D )

    The Blackjack experts (like Black21Jack!) will assure you 20x WR is extremely good if Blackjack is allowed and youre dealt a fair game. If you flat bet the WR the maths say you should come out with a profit. But I (and many casinos) consider that to be a) Bonus Abuse, and b) Extremely boring and sad!
    Casinos are for gambling and having fun so have a go at slots, stud, or 3-card poker you never know, you might catch a big one! It works for me! :cool:
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2005
  20. Apr 4, 2005
  21. sirius

    sirius Senior Member

    Location:
    UK
    The 'boost your bankroll by playing BJ or roulette' method is actually flawed and some casinos seem to believe in it and have banned those games totally. They should just be excluded from counting towards the wagering and not banned altogether. It doesn't make sense to stop new players from playing the popular games. All the games have a house edge so any play on those games will help the casino in the long run and reduce a player's bankroll on average. They would still need to play enough on the allowed games to cashout.

    It is true that there is an advantage in boosting your bankroll before finishing the wagering (in effect treating it as a sticky bonus that is lost after wagering) but most players will actually have a higher chance of *really* boosting the bankroll playing the allowed slots due to the extreme variance! You should be doing ok on the slot-only bonuses, and you don't even need to bet big on them.
     
  22. Apr 4, 2005
  23. sirius

    sirius Senior Member

    Location:
    UK
    Can anyone post their wins on the slots bonuses? I'm sure there will be a lot of very big winners. Of course, most of the time you will lose but you should be ahead on average if you play enough of them. It does help to bet big on them but it is not necessary.
     
  24. Apr 4, 2005
  25. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    This idea is not flawed, you can increase your expected profit by this method at the expense of increasing the variance. I don't know how many people actually use it.

    I think most slots-only bonuses don't have a positive expectation for the player, but I don't know the probability distributions to make the calculations. You should certainly bet big to increase your expectations.
     
  26. Apr 4, 2005
  27. chalupa

    chalupa Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Loaf
    Location:
    USA
    "Boost your bankroll" strategy absolutely works, and in fact is the only way to make money in the long run with many of these bonuses.

    Assume this:
    $50 deposit + $100 bonus with 20x wagering required on slots

    Expected loss on a 5% slot machine is 20x(50+100) x 5% = $150


    Results without bankroll boosting:
    $50 deposit + $100 bonus - $150 expected loss = $0
    Net profit/loss: -$50.00


    Results with maximum roulette bankroll boosting (first risk it all on 1 number in roulette, then play out slots if you win):
    36/37 times = $0
    1/37 times = $5400 win - $150 expected loss = $5250
    Average = 5250/37 = $142
    Net profit/loss: +$92.00


    This extreme example of bankroll boosting turns a $50 LOSS into a $92 PROFIT, in the long-term.

    That is why casinos don't allow roulette with bonuses. :)
     
  28. Apr 4, 2005
  29. chalupa

    chalupa Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Loaf
    Location:
    USA
    By the way... don't try the above example at home unless:

    1. You are comfortable with the extreme variance (you can go a long time before you hit that one number... the Theory Of Probability can be a harsh mistress in the short term).
    2. You are certain the casino will pay out if you do hit the big one.

    You should always bankroll boost first in this situation (unless you're just playing for fun... bankroll boosting tends to shorten your playing time considerably in the short-term :)), but perhaps in a less extreme fashion.

    If you risk it all on less of a longshot, your profits won't be as high, but they will be more consistent and you will be less likely to run into raised eyebrows upon withdrawal.

    No matter what you do, you of course always need to follow the casino's Terms and Conditions to the letter, because the casino doesn't like smart players.
     
  30. Apr 5, 2005
  31. sirius

    sirius Senior Member

    Location:
    UK
    What I was trying to explain was that you are just as likely to increase your bankroll by that amount or more playing the slots (most players will have more chance of boosting it a lot playing the slots as they need to bet big in the other games). It is flawed to ban roulette and blackjack. Slots actually have much higher variance so the house edge isn't a significant consideration for many thousands of spins.

    The expected loss you calculated for slots assumes you will wager $3000 but, due to the variance, the player loss is more likely to be less than $50 on average because many times the bankroll will be wiped out well before even a third of the requirements are wagered. Betting big will increase the average profit for the player but it probably isn't necessary to have an advantage.

    I hope you understand why it is flawed for casinos to ban these popular games. The average player can easily hit tens of thousands on the slots due to the variance but are unlikely to 'shoot that far' playing blackjack and roulette. The odds of hitting a certain target in blackjack and roulette will be slightly higher due to the lower house edge but the max target a player will aim for will not realistically be as high as is possible playing slots. Obviously for all these games, the average result will be negative due to the house edge in all of them.
     
  32. Apr 5, 2005
  33. sirius

    sirius Senior Member

    Location:
    UK
    Basically, I am saying that it's not a bad idea to play slots for the 'phantom/sticky' bonuses (including other bonuses where you are expected to lose the lot in the wagering), especially if you bet big. When playing with the bonus, you want to have the possibility of winning a high amount to maximize the average profit. The fact that you will lose the whole lot most of the time isn't something you should worry about because it minimizes the average wagered amount.
     
  34. Apr 5, 2005
  35. chalupa

    chalupa Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Loaf
    Location:
    USA
    I'm sorry, I think you have this exactly wrong. The more you play slots, the more likely it is that the high house edge will grind you away into oblivion.

    Your only hope is to hit a huge win -- and the chance of that happening is much smaller than the 1/37 chance of hitting a single number on roulette. A small win here or there won't do it, because you don't have the option to cash out early. You still have to complete your wagering requirements.


    Huh? In this case the player loss is not less than $50 -- it is exactly $50.


    You are correct, I believe, about the average player

    The average player is going to bet small and stretch their gaming experience. Regardless of what game the average player chooses, unless they get absurdly lucky, they are doomed.

    Clearly, the casino is not worried about the average player.

    The casino IS worried about the bonus hunter, to whom the 36:1 leverage offered by roulette is a potent weapon.


    The average result on your total balance is negative, yes. There is no way around that.

    But you don't care about that. What you care about is the result relative to your initial deposit. And as I showed in my example, it is possible to show a substantial long-term profit by leveraging the bonus money.

    ------

    Some of the above also brings up another point about large wagering requirements, specifically the "risk of ruin".

    Risk-of-ruin is the chance you will be wiped out before completing the wagering requirements, even if the bonus amount is higher than your expected loss for those wagering requirements.

    Even a good game like blackjack has a high risk-of-ruin if you are required to wager a large amount compared to your bankroll.

    Look at the seemingly generous 32% sign-up bonus at You must register/login in order to see the link. that allows blackjack. Then check out this table at You must register/login in order to see the link.. Do you think 32 Red picked those wagering requirements and minimum bet sizes by sheer coincidence? :)

    And when you compare blackjack to a high-variance high-edge game like slots, you can imagine that your risk-of-ruin goes through the roof. Especially when you consider that a 5% slot machine may actually be closer to 10% if you don't count the extreme longshot of the jackpot.

    Again the solution, is... LEVERAGE that casino bonus money while you have it, before the wagering requirements grind it away. Double-down, and double-down again, baby!
     
  36. Apr 5, 2005
  37. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    I really like your positive attitude, baby! :D

    But I can't believe you're really serious about the 'one number at roulette' plan. Losing 36 out of every 37 deposits would grind down even the most hardened of gamblers!
    Have you ever actually tried it yourself? I doubt it! :rolleyes:
     
  38. Apr 5, 2005
  39. chalupa

    chalupa Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Loaf
    Location:
    USA
    Of the top of my head I don't know any place that allows roulette with a match bonus currently, but when they did I have taken my long-shots -- never more than $100 per number though. :)

    Currently about the only time I play roulette is for promos where you get cash back on losses, as it is usually allowed. Again, in those situations, it is to your advantage to take a long-shot. Generally I go for about a 6x return.

    For match bonuses, I routinely risk hundreds where I have roughly only a 25% or 10% chance of winning.

    The 25% is typically all on Pair Plus in three-card poker. The 10% (roughly) is to bet $100 multihand video poker and double it 3x.

    And yes, you are right, it can be brutal in the short term -- I just lost about $1000 today. But I do have a nice long-term profit to show for it.
     

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