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Yes that Video Poker game IS rigged!

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by bernynhel, Mar 27, 2010.

  1. bernynhel

    bernynhel Dormant account PABnononaccred PABnoaccred

    This rant moved from here http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/354873-post15.html to avoid further derailment.

    This OP pasted from above:

    Video Poker games, online and in b&m casinos, are all slots. All slots perform, not only according to how they are programmed by the manufacturer, but how they are played. The player has an active role in play to play performance by making various selections of combinations of lines bet + coins per line. All contribute to the algorithms used by each game to determine how much it is taking in vs how much it is paying out. Since there aren't multiple lines on most video poker games, additional player input is derived by the players choice of coin size, for multi denomination machines or games, the number of total coins bet per hand, usually 1 - 5 coins and the choice of cards held by the player.

    Since programming is written left to right, for video poker, the user interface programing is also led from the left in terms of the five cards held. The dominant card in influencing the cards drawn is positioned on the left of the screen as this is the first instruction in the line of programming by the player which is the 5 cards held or discarded and the remaining 4 cards are weighted with diminishing influence for each of the four places moving left to right. This is why strategy for live cards is useless on video poker.

    I will post the strategy for Jacks or Better single hand video poker that I was taught in B & M casinos which has held 100% true for any Jacks or Better VP game in casinos or online. I have had over a dozen royal flushes in the last year online and in b&m casinos. The following may not seem to offer the best odds at a royal flush of 4 of a kind in every instance of gameround but the cumulative effect from a series of hands played in the following manner will cultivate royal flushes and 4 of a kinds as well as a higher percentage of lessor winning hands playing Jacks or Better. On Friday I hit a $1 x 5 RF online playing double double bonus poker holding the 10s, As which paid $4,000 and several weeks ago hit a RF on a B&M Super Aces quarter machine from holding a single Ah which paid $1,000 on a $0.25 x 5 bet.

    First of all the main strategy is never hold unsuited face cards. If dealt a Jc 2h Qd Ks 9c discard everything but the Jc, the card on the left end of the 5 card array. Leaving the maximum number of slots open for the draw means more opportunities to draw more Js. By holding all 3 of the unsuited faces only 2 slots are open to catch either another J, Q or K and the chances for a four card draw to flush, full house, four of a kind, straight flush or royal flush are eliminated. The exception to this rule is an A in the far right slot when no 10, J, Q or K of the same suit is dealt. In this instance only hold the A dealt to the far right. Otherwise the face card on the left end is always held when all of the faces dealt are unsuited. Additionally, the left slot being dominant, or first in the equation dealt, you will find, over time, that you will draw substantially more Js, as in this instance, than Qs or Ks which were discarded from less dominant slots to the right of the Jh.

    In bonus Jacks or Better games where the As are given prominence in the payout schedules, hold the single A regardless of position. Otherwise, all of these rules apply.

    Only hold two cards of a suit if they are 10 - A and no pair or higher or was dealt.

    Only hold 3 cards of a suit if they will reach to a straight flush. Holding 3 suited cards for a regular flush is not worth the payout in exchange for lost jacks or better hands potentially sacrificed for this practice

    Bet max bet or 5 coins on each consecutive hand if Js or better is the final outcome. If Js or better are not realized, bet one coin on the following hand and immediately revert to 5 coins no matter what the outcome of the 1 coin bet hand was. Continue to alternate between 1 and 5 coins unless Js or better are realized in consecutive hands.

    If, after several gamerounds, Js or better are not realized after alternating for 1 to 5 coins, change coin denominations, if available (as on .05, .10, .25, .50, 1.00, etc VP games). Raise or lower coin denomination depending on regular, bankroll management practices. If the game is single denomination and Js or better cannot be achieved buy alternating between 1 and 5 coin bets, quit.
    bonus jacks or better this is also true.

    Never hold 3 suited faces in favor of pairs. You can test this by playing in play mode at any site offering play mode and hold 3 cards to a royal while discarding a pair and you will notice the game offer you more and more of the same. I've seen 3/5 hands dealt as a pair + 3 suited faces - every hand a loser if the pairs discarded, over a period of a dozen or two dozen gamerounds. Just like any computer, "garbage in, garbage out."

    On occasion you may be dealt low pairs from 2-6 and 2 suited faces in a long series of consecutive hands. In this case, alternate between holding low pairs and the two suited faces starting from an even money payout from either holding the pairs and drawing trips or holding the suited faces and drawing Js or better.

    If I can think of anythng to add I'll post again.
    2 people like this.
  2. bernynhel

    bernynhel Dormant account PABnononaccred PABnoaccred

    I've taken a few screenshots to illustrate the rule in Js or Better VP of holding only the unsuited facecards dealt to the left end of the five card lineup or the #1 position. These are all in real money mode, a single session, spanning the night of 3/25/2010 and morning of 3/26/2010.

    For simplification, going forward, 10s will be always be included in all references to "facecards".

    The first hand depicts the Qd which occupies the dominant left end position is held while everything else, including the unsuited Kc, are discards. The draw, in this case, conveniently shows that the Kc proved not to be needed.

    The next had is another example of the strength of the card farthest to the left, or #1 position, after the deal. Again since no hand was dealt without any suited faces, the Qc is held as that is the #1 card position while all others to the right, including the Kh, are discards. Upon the draw, once again, the argument that the Kh was never needed at all gains a modicum of credibility.

    The only exception to the only-the-unsuited-facecard-on-the-left-is-held-rule in non bonus versions of Js or Better is if an unsuited A is in the # 5 position, farthest to the right. In this case, all other unsuited faces in positions 1 - 4 are discards. In bonus versions of Js or better, where As are given extra weight in the paytable, unsuited As are held in lieu of all other unsuited facecards no matter the position.

    The sunny outcome of these hands are not to be expected in the earliest hands of a session. These draws are cumulative effect of playing precisely in this manner over not less than one hour at a gameround rate of about 1 hand/8-10 seconds or 6 hands/minute or approximately 360 hands. The cards held, along with the bet denomination, and number of coins bet and total bet amount, combined with the cumulative gameplay within a single session constitutes input by the player resulting in final outcome.
  3. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    I would think this would need to be tested properly over a LOT of hands to see if it holds true.

    If this whole 'programming from the left' idea is correct, then you are saying it possible to 'outsmart' the game? Im finding it difficult to accept that any software provider would leave such a simple 'loophole' for a player. Im not saying its not possible, just that Im having trouble accepting the idea.

    When we look at the cards on the draw, we also have to assume that those cards would have been given regardless of what was being held. i.e. When you say the Kh was never needed, how do we know that 2 more Ks wouldnt have been given if, in fact, the VP game pays like a slot.....maybe it was going to give you 3OAK anyway? Just thinking out loud here lol

    Im tempted to try it out, but it would be better to have something statistical to back it up. Saying that one has hit x amount of RFs and x amount of 4AOKs may just be the result of a large number of hands played and may have been experienced if the traditional methods were employed anyway.

    Interesting stuff.
  4. Jasminebed

    Jasminebed Closer to 100 than Birth

    I do know that keeping less than perfect strategy increases the variance, even with a random deck. For most of us, we are not looking to break even over 10's of thousands of hands, but to win over a session of 10's of dozen's of hands, or 10's of hundreds.
  5. bernynhel

    bernynhel Dormant account PABnononaccred PABnoaccred

    EXACTLY! Why the first thing to do, if an option, is turn off the auto hold feature because it LOVES holding unsuited facecards! I'm not guaging my success in total hands played, either. Besides, those autoholds and video poker coach programs and tables all work on the assumption of a real deck of cards actually shuffled, randomly, and dealt properly - so it's running on criteria that has nothing to do with any of the instructions programed into these machines!

    BTW I was taught this strategy by a woman I knew from the Spa Casino and Resort in Palm Springs in the early nineties. She she was there a lot with a large group of friends, all very upscale country-club types and every one of them hip to this same set of rules for VP. Ever since, no matter where, online or off, I haven't found a VP game that doesn't dictate these same actions. The exceptions are VPs with less than usual paytables, which should just be avoided. But, in the case of Js or Better, as long as the table pays 250,50,25,9,6,4,2,&1 for descending hands from the royal flush to a pair, everything has been consistent for over 20 years.

    I have more screenshots but CM isn't sizing them and I have to edit the originals.
  6. bernynhel

    bernynhel Dormant account PABnononaccred PABnoaccred

    It's been tested by me for over twenty years. The hands pictured are the typical cumulative effect of gameplay as described. VPs not played in this manner penalize the player, meaning there is no cumulative results as I illustrated. Also, if unsuited faces are held, there are that many fewer openings to even make a pair let alone anyting higher. If trying this out, the thing to watch for, and most easily noticed, is how seldom the unsuited discards are re-drawn. As in both examples, you may surprised at how seldom another K is drawn after an original K is discarded in favor of holding the Q, on the left. As long as its a good payable for Jacks or Better, for example, ie, descending from RF to a pair, 250,50,25,9,6,,4,3,2,1. I've found the results convincingly consistent.

    In answer to your wondering if more Ks wouldn't have been dealt to give me the 3 OAK had I held the K, I don't know. But if they were, why weren't dealt when I held the Q, since by your example I would have played wrong by making the wrong choice? Ad infinitum! It's like heaven and hell. No one is coming back with pics snapped on their cell phone cams.

    Why not try it in fun mode somewhere for an hour and see if you don't notice any difference from what auto hold suggests, for example, or any other strategy you are familiar with.. Then, if you see any merit, get out the slide rule. LOL.

    I believe that RTP is RTP. That one player can achieve a better result than another doesn't change anything. Consider the slot standing in a B&M casino. That one player can play for an hour and lose an entire bankroll just to have someone else immediately walk up and jackpot on the next pull is a familiar scenario to all of us. Did the second player know any tricks? Not likely as the only user interface possible is the bet size and combinations of lines played and coins per line - hardly anyting that could be applied to slots in general considering the variety of games, lines, symbols, etc. On the other hand we have all been familiarizing ourselves with decks of cards since early childhood. In this case the "slots" in the form of VP games are decipherable and we quickly form opinions or are easily frustrated with a "dealer" with luck seemingly much too good to be true. When, on the other hand, while no one likes losing to a video or reel slot, we haven't the bias in place to hold much of a grudge as we do when cards are obviously turning against us. We just grip about "tight" slots or some other vague expression whereas we can recount exact hands won and lost in VP or BJ because they employ a vocabulary most of us are familiar with.

    Keep in mind, one can't beat the RTP settings, but one can maximize their slice of the contribution alloted to the overall playtime spent by all players during the RTPs regular cycling. BTW, doubling up after wins voids all warranties. LOL
    4 people like this.
  7. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Thanks for sharing this Bern - its been a great read! :thumbsup:

    I always thought the RTP was achieved via the payouts for each hand vs the actual odds. It certainly sheds a different light if the RTP is actually achieved in a more concocted fashion!
  8. slafs

    slafs Dormant account

    This one is too far fetched for me.. ;)

    Do you really think that EVERY VP-impementation since the early 90s has been done in the same way, with the same "loophole"? :confused:
    1 person likes this.
  9. Stovetopp

    Stovetopp Senior Member MM

    I dont kow if its a software program that deals the hands and have always thought that the cards were randomly generated. However, I know from experience, that in the case of dble bonus where one holds for an outside straight and the hand contains a pair (6 7 6 8 9) ,( 8 9 10 8 j ) for e xample holding the first card generally produces the desired result Of course I have no way of knowing , had I held the inner card if the results would have been the same.

    As to holding the left most unfaced card of a 2 unsuited FC hand, I have watched people doing this but assumed they were just going for the RF.

    Nothing wrong with this but it sure does magnify the variance I sat behihd a lady once playing $1.00 dble bonus and she threw away every non paying pair to hold the Ace if there was one dealt in the hand She was going for those 4Aces no matter what it costs Think I will try this in dble dble jackpot at 3 dice but will play the 10 cent denom.:-
  10. rockycatt

    rockycatt meistercatt CAG MM

    :D:thumbs up::D i'd like enzo to comment on this :eek::eek:
  11. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Speak for yourself mate:p

    Attached Files:

  12. bernynhel

    bernynhel Dormant account PABnononaccred PABnoaccred

    Oh sure, Enzo's gonna give up the game like that! If you believe that then you'll believe any of the available data on Zeitgeist. Not that I'm saying it isn't all true. I just don't get the motive for it if it is. Call me a cynic.

    My point is this: What official, objective, regulative body has verified that the claims made by any online gaming operator that the performance of their casino games are consistently true and accurate by having knowledgeable inspectors who are also capable of fully understanding every command in every line of text of software programming be allowed access to and scrutinize every page of programming used to operate those games? Until that happens I take any such claims I take with a grain of salt.

    That said, bring Enzo on I wouldn't mind hearing his view, either.

    What I meant to say was: "Did the second player know any tricks? Not likely unless it was vinylweatherman" that is!
  13. rockycatt

    rockycatt meistercatt CAG MM

    i see 5.00 a spin :p
  14. retlaw

    retlaw Meister Member


    As you have much experience with VP, I would be interested in your opinion (and the opinion of other players) about the following:

    I play VP on a daily basis on MG casino's and there is some strange thing happening during years, for which I have no explanation at all.
    When I get a pat 4 to a RF or 4 to a SF, I usually don't get the RF or SF.(much less than the 1/47 statistically expected)
    However the next hand I get the missing card (for the RF or SF) on exactly the same place where I needed it for the RF or SF.
    I don't write it down, but I think this happens about 1/5 times (much more than statistically expected)
    Sceptics will say it is pure coincidence, but it is hard to believe.
    1 person likes this.
  15. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Hey Vinyl - are putting in a bid for the most posted screenshot of all time??

  16. bernynhel

    bernynhel Dormant account PABnononaccred PABnoaccred

    If you had, during previous gamerounds leading up to the situation you are describing, been consistently holding unsuited facecards, I might say that the game is telling you, "See! This is what you could have had if you had been discarding unsuited faces like bernynhel says!" But that might be a bit over the top even for me. However, I do believe that if you had been holding the unsuited faces on the left and discarding all others, you might have had a better chance of drawing the fifth card to those royal and straight flushes. I play MG VP too. Nearly since they've been in existence. But I have always played the way I've described and haven't had the software taunt me so viciously.

    I've only had a few royals and straight flushes come from four cards pat dealt. Some have been a dealt pat straights with one card unsuited to the other four. For example 10h,Jh,Qc,Kh,Ah. But I have also drawn four cards to royal and straight flushes when I held only the one face card on the left or, the exception, the A on the far right. Recently I held suited 10,A and drew the other three for the rf.

    In any case, as VP is actually a slot as opposed to a "live" card game, players with expectations of the cards behaving as cards which are randomly "shuffled" between every hand are often disappointed. And I would remind your "skeptics" that there's no such thing as a coincidence. I would tend to believe that the game is deliberately taunting you before I would believe that!
    1 person likes this.
  17. bernynhel

    bernynhel Dormant account PABnononaccred PABnoaccred

    That screen shot is from the 21st century, at least, right? :lolup:
  18. 4 of a kind

    4 of a kind Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll

    In the past year I've seen this exact scenario at least 50 times at least, probably way more. In fact I've seen this more then once during one session.
  19. bernynhel

    bernynhel Dormant account PABnononaccred PABnoaccred

    I have too, actually. Sometimes the draw pulls a card to pair, sometimes a straight, sometimes a flush and probably most often, no hand. Rarely has that deal ended in a straight or royal flush for me. Next time it happens, I'm going to try discarding all 5 cards. lol
  20. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Actually (and I dont have written stats here...) I have noticed that I am dealt more 4-to-a-royals at 3Dice than any other software by at least a factor of 3. I have still not hit one to date btw.

    Ive lost track of how many times Ive played 3Dice VP and said "oh geez not again" and my wife has said "what happened?" and I explain that once again Ive been dealt this hand and didnt get the RF.

    I can pretty much gaurantee Ive had that dealt hundreds of times to me without success, so it does make one wonder about the coding theory.

    Ive always used correct strategy but Im considering giving it a one month trial with Berns idea. Of course, Bern will also be receiving a visit from Rocco and Benny if I happen to lose my shirt...... :p
    1 person likes this.

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