XXLClubCasino V Me Opinion wanted

[uungy]

Yes the terms were there at promotion time, and yes we added the max cashout info to any subsequent free chips no deposit promotion (New Year Gift) to be absolutely clear.

It is not in our intention to foul our players or to raise wrong expectations. We do want happy returning players we are here for the long run and we would have absolutely no benefit in tricking players out.

This free gift was at absolutely zero risk to the player so I honestly can't understand why a player would feel abused or tricked into anything. Why not simply enjoy the free 100 you got and be happy?

An interesting discussion could be if legally any inner link would be predominant to the main link to the T&C. We could also only give a link to the T&C page and leave the player pick the right right T&C for the bonus given. "All free cash" is pretty clear to me and can't be misunderstand and confused with "Monthly Loyalty Bonus".

But they werent there for th Xmas promo

 

[Pinababy69]

But they werent there for th Xmas promo

Is that true XXL? If those "Free Chip Rules" were not at the bottom of the terms page when Uungy received the free chip, I'd do a complete 180 on my position. Did you only add them after the Xmas promo? Or update them after the Xmas promo? If it was an update, what EXACTLY did they say originally? Did it state that there was a max cashout on the free chip?

 

[XXLClubCasino]

Is that true XXL? If those "Free Chip Rules" were not at the bottom of the terms page when Uungy received the free chip, I'd do a complete 180 on my position. Did you only add them after the Xmas promo? Or update them after the Xmas promo? If it was an update, what EXACTLY did they say originally? Did it state that there was a max cashout on the free chip?

No it's not, the all free chips rule has been there from day 1 and was never updated except to include pokerthree as restricted game. KK surely could confirm it with a screenshot.

We only updated subsequent promotion emails to have the max cashout rule in the email body instead of only providing a link to the T&C.

 

[Pinababy69]

No it's not, the all free chips rule has been there from day 1 and was never updated except to include pokerthree as restricted game. KK surely could confirm it with a screenshot.

We only updated subsequent promotion emails to have the max cashout rule in the email body instead of only providing a link to the T&C.

So they have always been exactly where they are now? And they stated that there was a max cashout of $100 on a $10 free chip? If so, my original opinion stands.

Yeah, I'd like to see a screenshot if KK or anyone else has one. Wonder if a wayback search would do the trick? How long before pages get archived in Google?

 

[XXLClubCasino]

So they have always been exactly where they are now? And they stated that there was a max cashout of $100 on a $10 free chip? If so, my original opinion stands.

Yeah, I'd like to see a screenshot if KK or anyone else has one. Wonder if a wayback search would do the trick? How long before pages get archived in Google?

Well trust me on that one cause the All Free chips T&C with max cashout was needed from the first day we started the online casino.

Uungy just didn't scroll down or it was simply more convenient to believe the monthly bonus to be the valid T&C and have a case.

google cache unfortunately from the 15th of July 07: Outdated URL (Invalid)

 

[Pinababy69]

Answered My Own Question

From December 3, 2006.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

All Free Cash Promotions
The FREE Cash Bonus mentioned in the promotional email will be given only to the first 200 players who initially received this email.

Some of our bonuses are given automatically, and others have to be requested. If you have not received your bonus automatically please send an email to support@xxlclubcasino.com.

Please note that:
In the interest of fair gaming, you must wager at least 25 (twenty five) times the FREE cash amount before making any cash outs.

Players who play in GBP, are required to wager a minimum of 35x (thirty five) times the free cash bonus before cashing out any amount higher than the initial free cash amount.

Bets placed in the games Craps, Roulette (American, French & European), Blackjack (all sorts of blackjack), Video Poker (all sorts of Video Poker), Sic Bo and Baccarat does not fulfil the player's obligations with regard to the minimum wagering requirements.

The above mentioned restricted games CAN'T be played before fulfilling the wagering requirement or all winnings will be void.

Money won on restricted games before the completion of the bonus wagering requirements will not be available for withdrawal.

Provided that the /$/10 has been wagered in full, any balance over and above the original /$/10 will be considered winnings.

A maximum winnings of /$/100 may be withdrawn.


I could have taken a screenshot, but just copied and pasted. However, the link goes directly to that page on that date. I understand Uungy's frustration about the link in the email taking him to the wrong "spot"...however, as you stated, there is no confusing a deposit bonus with a no deposit/free chip bonus. And the terms were there.

Edited to correct: The home page link was for Dec. 3/2006. The bonus terms looks like it was from August of 2006, which is even earlier.

 

[uungy]

Well trust me on that one cause the All Free chips T&C with max cashout was needed from the first day we started the online casino.

Uungy just didn't scroll down or it was simply more convenient to believe the monthly bonus to be the valid T&C and have a case.

google cache unfortunately from the 15th of July 07: Outdated URL (Invalid)

as i said earlier

The link didnt take me there, it took me to a particular part on the page, so when i clicked the link, all i saw were those terms and conditions. I abided to them and the the terms sent in the email, I dont think thats too hard to comprehend.

The free cash or something terms, a I said to you earlier, I didn't even see those terms, so why do you expect a customer to go searching through your site, if the link you gave took me to a specific set of terms.

 

[vinylweatherman]

The terms that applied to the Xmas bonus was and still is
--------------------------------------------
All Free Cash Promotions

The FREE Cash Bonus mentioned in the promotional email will be given only to the first 200 players who initially received this email.*(1)

Some of our bonuses are given automatically, and others have to be requested. If you have not received your bonus automatically please send an email to support@xxlclubcasino.com.

Please note that:
In the interest of fair gaming, you must wager at least 25 (twenty five) times the FREE cash amount before making any cash outs.

Bets placed in the games Craps, Roulette (all sorts of Roulette), Blackjack (all sorts of blackjack), Video Poker (all sorts of Video Poker), Sic Bo, Poker Three and Baccarat does not fulfil the player's obligations with regard to the minimum wagering requirements.

The above mentioned restricted games CAN'T be played before fulfilling the wagering requirement or all winnings will be void.

Money won on restricted games before the completion of the bonus wagering requirements will not be available for withdrawal.

Provided that the /$/10 has been wagered in full, any balance over and above the original /$/10 will be considered winnings.*(2a)

A maximum winnings of /$/100 may be withdrawn.*(2b)

For full Casino Terms and Conditions please click here
--------------------------------------------------

The link to it is: Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)
in the Xmas promotion the link Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) was given.

note the difference at the end of the link #gop instead of #lb

Also common sense would say that a free Xmas promotion as absolutely nothing to do with the monthly deposit bonus and any player would recognize it and accept the email to have had a typo.

We are fair and we stick to our T&C saying we are not fair and honest because of an obvious wrongly formated anchor is going a little bit too far!!

PS: The T&C were updated today to remove the unpopular 25/35 WR for UK resident with accounts. Nothing else was added or changed.

1) This is not something that applied to the Xmas gift.
2) (a & b) - gives specifics for a free $10 chip, leaving a max cashout of 10x
It could be argued that since the specifics have to be adapted to apply in the general sense (as in striking out the "first 200" proviso for the Christmas gift), this term needs to be interpreted due to the fact this chip was $100 and not $10. If it was taken that the generality of a 10x max cashout applied, this means that for a $100 chip it would be $1000 of winnings.

Confusion is effected by trying to make a term for a specific promotion also to apply to a general case, so with each line the reader is jumping from the general to specific, and back again. This leaves the terms open to interpretation and debate, which is what happened here.
It would be better to have an index at the top of the terms page, itself providing inner links to the specific terms. These terms should specifically name the promotion, OR be written completely in general terms without reference to anything specific related to any single mailer (such as $10 and first 200 to reply).
Lastly, and ideally, the mailer should contain the FULL promotion specific terms, so there would be no need to use inner links other than to confirm general terms. It seems this has been done for future mailers, which is a result.
This would have never been an argument if this were a Microgaming Xmas gift though, there would be NO argument about max cashout (there being none), and EZBonus would show whether WR was complete or not.
There has never been a convincing reason given as to why MG can do this, yet not go bust, while Playtech and RTG simply cannot for fear of too much being won.
If I went into Vegas, cashed in my loyalty free chip on the last day, I bet I would not be stopped at the door for hitting a big win on it & told I had to give some of it back because I had won too much! All it does with online casinos is give the impression that casinos with restrictive max cashout rules & low weekly payout limits have issues with cashflow, which would worry any serious high roller, and many players of progressive games. It is one issue that puts MG ahead of the rest, as well as the MG "insurance fund" in case the worst should happen with an MG branded casino going bust.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

1) This is not something that applied to the Xmas gift.
2) (a & b) - gives specifics for a free $10 chip, leaving a max cashout of 10x
It could be argued that since the specifics have to be adapted to apply in the general sense (as in striking out the "first 200" proviso for the Christmas gift), this term needs to be interpreted due to the fact this chip was $100 and not $10. If it was taken that the generality of a 10x max cashout applied, this means that for a $100 chip it would be $1000 of winnings.

Confusion is effected by trying to make a term for a specific promotion also to apply to a general case, so with each line the reader is jumping from the general to specific, and back again. This leaves the terms open to interpretation and debate, which is what happened here.
It would be better to have an index at the top of the terms page, itself providing inner links to the specific terms. These terms should specifically name the promotion, OR be written completely in general terms without reference to anything specific related to any single mailer (such as $10 and first 200 to reply).
Lastly, and ideally, the mailer should contain the FULL promotion specific terms, so there would be no need to use inner links other than to confirm general terms. It seems this has been done for future mailers, which is a result.
This would have never been an argument if this were a Microgaming Xmas gift though, there would be NO argument about max cashout (there being none), and EZBonus would show whether WR was complete or not.
There has never been a convincing reason given as to why MG can do this, yet not go bust, while Playtech and RTG simply cannot for fear of too much being won.
If I went into Vegas, cashed in my loyalty free chip on the last day, I bet I would not be stopped at the door for hitting a big win on it & told I had to give some of it back because I had won too much! All it does with online casinos is give the impression that casinos with restrictive max cashout rules & low weekly payout limits have issues with cashflow, which would worry any serious high roller, and many players of progressive games. It is one issue that puts MG ahead of the rest, as well as the MG "insurance fund" in case the worst should happen with an MG branded casino going bust.

- All free chips have a max cash out of 100, not 10 times the amount of free chips. If you get 20 in free chips you still only can cashout 100. I'm not sure where the 10x free chips comes from.

- Playtech is developing a new bonus system which will take a lot of players and operators input into account. It is really needed but not available at present time so operators are left with the current system and try to do the best out of it. The current system leave a maximum of possibilities to the operators but unfortunately players do not receive an accurate feedback during play.

- All progressive jackpots are being paid out of the pool which growth with every players spin. There is absolutely zero risk to a playtech operator should a player hit the jackpot as the contribution to it was already paid in the jackpot pool.

- How many playtech casino went bankrupt? To my knowledge not a single one.

 

[vinylweatherman]

- All free chips have a max cash out of 100, not 10 times the amount of free chips. If you get 20 in free chips you still only can cashout 100. I'm not sure where the 10x free chips comes from.

- Playtech is developing a new bonus system which will take a lot of players and operators input into account. It is really needed but not available at present time so operators are left with the current system and try to do the best out of it. The current system leave a maximum of possibilities to the operators but unfortunately players do not receive an accurate feedback during play.

- All progressive jackpots are being paid out of the pool which growth with every players spin. There is absolutely zero risk to a playtech operator should a player hit the jackpot as the contribution to it was already paid in the jackpot pool.

- How many playtech casino went bankrupt? To my knowledge not a single one.

Action Online folded this February. The writing was on the wall at the time, however "Playtech fiddled while Rome burned", and contacted Action Online, who NEVER replied, yet Playtech simply gave them more time, until May, when it was so obvious they had folded that nearly everyone here at Casinomeister knew about it.

A more appropriate question would be to ask how many casinos went bust through NOT having a max cashout rule on bonuses. Playtech casinos (as well as RTG) say it is needed, but never specify why.
What if a player hits a progressive with a max cashout chip, they could win a MILLION, but be denied it because they were unlucky enough to be playing with a max cashout.
I recently looked at Fast Win, and a recent update has turned ALL BUT ONE of the slots into a progressive, making it almost impossible to play a non progressive slot.

Given the belt, braces, chastity belt and padlock approach of Playtech (sticky bonuses, huge WR, max cashouts down to 1x chip or less), it is surprising that ANY Playtech would go bust, however this is not the right way to stay in business. Far better would be "honest" bonuses, invariably less attention grabbing, but without built in disappointments such as max cash-in, disappointments that CANNOT be entirely avoided if players are obliged to play high variance games such as slots.
A few players here are wise to the statistical con-job that is the max cashout rule, and it has generated MANY complaints, with players being "lucky" with great wins, only to have it snached back because they won "at the wrong time".
One answer, of course, is for players to refuse such bonuses, but then the casino has lost it's main marketing tool. The other perk, comp points, is a pathetic 0.1% rebate in many places, even on slots with a 5% hold - even this mean offer is often further demeaned by further WR, max cashouts, etc.
The impression is that it is only bonuses that offer any chance of players winning on slots at least. At least with Blackjack and some VP games play without any bonus can give a decent win with a bit of luck.
Playtech slots never seem to pay out large wins nearly as often as MG, so play is usually a slow decline to zero, with a few minor upward peaks of 10 to 30 times bet - more than this is rare.

Playtech is a brand that I mostly avoid, recently only having played at FastWin, and probably not for much longer after recent changes to their T & C. When Playtech develop their new bonus system, they should rid us of max cashout bonuses altogether for existing players, and only have them for new player no-deposit offers.

 

[uungy]

Strong points!

The wierd thing is, XXLClub are prepared to give $500 back to someone who tried playing the system (refer to earlier thread) who had no terms to back the player up, however when someone comes with a qualified reason, at least understandable reason, they take no interest.

While again this is not an answer, and doesnt add any side, it just puts some weight anyway!

In regards to max cashouts, as vinylweatherman put it, its there to confuse the players, and should a big win be hit, the casinos take no intrest, and put it far out of a players sight. I never play casinos with max cashouts, even with free money, its more hassle then its worth, and I feel casinos do it to confuse players.

The kickback offer which XXL have, while they sound nice, again, there are wagering requirements, and max limits which never entice me to play. I like easy bonus systems with a reasonable amount of games allowed.

That is my opinion, but the max cashouts, like my case, is there to confuse a player, and especially when the wrong terms are given in the email and link in the email, if not why was that done?

 

[XXLClubCasino]

Strong points!
The wierd thing is, XXLClub are prepared to give $500 back to someone who tried playing the system (refer to earlier thread) who had no terms to back the player up, however when someone comes with a qualified reason, at least understandable reason, they take no interest.

This can't be compared as the player deposited his own $ and take a risk while in your case you had NOT to risk anything (except your time gambling) and could cash in the 100 for free. Also absolutely not comparable with respect to the net casino income; 500 versus -100!

In regards to max cashouts, as vinylweatherman put it, its there to confuse the players, and should a big win be hit, the casinos take no intrest, and put it far out of a players sight. I never play casinos with max cashouts, even with free money, its more hassle then its worth, and I feel casinos do it to confuse players.

I just can't understand this, if you know you can only cashout 100 and you don't have to risk any of your own money why would you not play it! Every one in the world would jump on the free occasion and try to make 100 out of nothing! Maybe it's just the limit that is too low for your taste and 100 does not mean much to you. Would you play the bonus if the max cashout was 1000,5000 or 10'000, i guess yes!

The kickback offer which XXL have, while they sound nice, again, there are wagering requirements, and max limits which never entice me to play. I like easy bonus systems with a reasonable amount of games allowed.

The kickbacks given highly depend upon your VIP level. VIP kickback bonuses have no max cashout and a human 12x bonus WR. Standard kickback given to players that deposit the minimum of 20 receive a kickback with a max cashout, doesn't this make sense to you?

That is my opinion, but the max cashouts, like my case, is there to confuse a player, and especially when the wrong terms are given in the email and link in the email, if not why was that done?

Again we do not want to confuse any one, it's not our purpose.

Honestly what would have change for you, knowing the max cash out to be 100 before you started playing, it would have change absolutely nothing! The only change is your disappointment after cashing in and learning about the max cashout on that bonus. I fully understand this and made a move to compensate this disappointment but you obviously value it more than the offered 150 in bonus (with no max cashout).

You should also not drag any unrelated facts in this case. Your different claims about playtech, microgaming, RTG have absolutely nothing to do in this thread. What matters here is the wrongly formatted anchor link within the free bonus given to you and whether or not the casino can be held responsible for it and if yes to which extend. The T&C where in place before, during and after the promotion and were not changed.

My position is that players with a minimum of common sense would/could understand the typo and follow the rules that apply to the all free no deposit chips given.

I think we should wait a couple of more input on the subject from other members and then decide in a common agreement on a resolution, or we can ask the meister!

 

[vinylweatherman]

Just get rid of max cashout rules for existing players altogether. This applies to ALL casinos.
The WR and other terms have not been an issue in this case - everything revolves around the max cashout.
If players "take the piss" by depositing a mere $20 to work the system, just don't give out the kickback.

These more complex rules only help "advantage players", who will make damn certain to extract maximum value within T & C.
If an advantage player "won too much" they would use the surplus to build a few comp points and cash in the exact maximum. They would have scoured the T & C with a microscope, and would have NEVER made the mistake of taking offers at face value. They will, of course, also try some of the tactics you believe uungy guilty of, continually arguing a case for further movement on your part on the compromise agreement (as an alternative to building comps). They would certainly have played, rather than refused, this bonus - most likely scouring the game exclusions for any games not mentioned that offer a chance to get a big head start - in fact, the ONLY way to have a fighting chance to win from a sticky bonus.
Until the software can control "undesirable" play, this will always happen, and ill written T & C will be taken apart by savvy players (it's their JOB, just as it's the casinos job to fool players with grand offers that are really in the casinos favour).

When Playtech produce this new bonus system, it should be SIMPLE, and enforced by the software such that a breach of bonus terms is IMPOSSIBLE. They should learn from the mistakes made by MG with EZBonus, simple, but did they ask operators what they really needed first?

 

[Pinababy69]

or we can ask the meister!

I had been going to suggest that very thing myself.

I have to totally agree that there is a world of difference between a deposit bonus, and a non-deposit one. The only relevant issue here is the link sent in the email. It led to the correct page, but the wrong spot on that page.

I agree that max cashouts are a sucky rule. But if the T&C's are on the website, then both parties should abide by them. Even seasoned gamblers get burned on occasion by not fully reading them...it doesn't change the fact that they are there. Work on getting them to change it, but it can't be retroactive.

 

[happygobrokey]

i still don't agree that the "right place" on the page was clear enough that it was applicable to the xmas promo. i know it says "all free cash promos" but does that mean that every free cash promo is limited to the first 200 claimants, and they are never told this in the email? and every free chip from $1 to $10k is maxed out at $100?

at any rate, the casino should be able to point a member to the proper place on their website to see the correct terms stated clearly and using the same language as the email offers. same page or not, the whole thing was made utterly too confusing and including "xmas" onto the page, a mere four letters, would have given a clear indication where to look for the xmas bonus terms. and putting the entire terms onto the email would just be giving the cutomer a time-stamped hard copy of their obligations, increasing the chance they'll read and abide to it. but then it also gives them ammo to hold the casino to anything contained therein. so we couldn't have that, now could we?

 

[uungy]

i still don't agree that the "right place" on the page was clear enough that it was applicable to the xmas promo. i know it says "all free cash promos" but does that mean that every free cash promo is limited to the first 200 claimants, and they are never told this in the email? and every free chip from $1 to $10k is maxed out at $100?

at any rate, the casino should be able to point a member to the proper place on their website to see the correct terms stated clearly and using the same language as the email offers. same page or not, the whole thing was made utterly too confusing and including "xmas" onto the page, a mere four letters, would have given a clear indication where to look for the xmas bonus terms. and putting the entire terms onto the email would just be giving the cutomer a time-stamped hard copy of their obligations, increasing the chance they'll read and abide to it. but then it also gives them ammo to hold the casino to anything contained therein. so we couldn't have that, now could we?

and a mere changing of the anchor doesnt seem too hard to do either!