WPT Casino not paying aprox. $3300

mariuspkr

Dormant account
PABnonaccred
Joined
Nov 24, 2011
Location
Vaslui
I read all the past posts on this thread [here] and I decided to write my similar story .
Firstly you have to understand I DON'T CLAIM I AM INNOCENT , I just want to show how Party group takes advantage of those T&C against players.
Of course I didn't read "Standard terms and conditions apply" , my mistake .
Standard terms and conditions apply :
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My amendaments to WPT Casino are :

In good faith relationship with customers/players all decisive conditions are pointed blank and not covered up.Isn't strage that they consider more important the rule of "This offer is for a limited period only." written in front of "9.Payment of bonuses / 9.2." ?!? Is there a reason ? Of course there is !
Due to this situation, WPT Casino has a big advantage over players : apparently less annoying conditions = more payers = more profits.

Using logic & argumentation I will proof that those rules contradict each other.

Note : B - Balance ,D - Deposit, Bo - Bonus, Bonus type :50% up to $250 ALLGAMES500, Deposit+Bonus = Balance . For 500 D receive 250 Bo => 50% of the bonus = 16.(6)%B

WPT Casino consider 'irregular playing patterns' under conditions like :
1 {9.2}. "We consider low margin betting, equal betting, zero risk bets or hedge betting to be irregular gaming when deployed to exploit bonuses"
We conclude next bets are allowed :
* more than low margin ( > 0%B bets ) less than 16.(6)%B bets . We can not define the exact allowed limit of bets.
* unequal betting
* risky bets



2 {(i)} . "placing single or multiple bets of a value of fifty percent or more of the bonus on any single game , individual hand, or round, building a balance and significantly changing play patterns (bet size, game types, bet structures etc) in order to meet the bonus release requirement"
We conclude next bets are allowed : less or equeal than 16.(6)%B and followed by the same bet size , game , bet structure , etc...

3 {(ii)} . "placing large bets which result in a substantial gain followed by a drop in bet size equal to or more than seventy five percent of the previous average bet size until the bonus release requirements have been met "
We conclude next bets are allowed: placing bets less than 75% of the previous average bet size if we gained a substantial amounth

To get the right sow by the ear , we are allowed to place bets that are more than low margin (1), less than 16.(6)%B if followed by the same bet size , game , bet structure , etc... (2) , unequal (1) , risky bets (1) , placing bets less than 75% of the previous average bet size if we gained a substantial amounth (3).

Next I will simulate a situation that proves those conditions gives the player zero chances to be right accordingly "Standard terms and conditions apply" .

A.Let's place bets more or equal than 16.(6)%B . We have two situations the one we loose during the game , and the one we build a balance .
The one we build a balance : We are allowed to play if we keep the same bet size , game , bet structure , etc... due to rule no.2 that contradicts rule no.1 ("We consider low margin betting, equal betting, zero risk bets or hedge betting to be irregular gaming when deployed to exploit bonuses") . So , we can comply with rule no.2 because we'll brake rule no.1
Accordingly we can not make bets more or equal than 16.(6)%B .

B.Let's place bets less than 16.(6)%B .We have two situations the one we loose during the game , and the one we build a balance .
The one we build a balance : (Here rule no.2 doesn't apply) Due to rule no.1 we are not allowed to bet equaly so we have to change the bet size to respect this rule .Due to rule no.3 we are forced to place bets less than 75% of the previous average bet size if we gained a substantial amounth . Supposing we still have credits into the account , we are forced to bet everytime less than before bet due to rule no.3 . Supposing our first bet was the maximum 16.(6)%B , to respect the condition no.3 and no.1 , next bet should be less than 12,5%B and so on .... Shortly , after a few hand we brake rule no.1 (low margin betting).


If there is still any chances to escape from this , please tell me I am really curios .
Regarding the absence of those conditions from the front bonus page it's well known as a marketing technique , It's like fake publicity and it's punished by law , what law ?!? If I knew about those conditions I woudn't play at WPT Casino at all .

Before they closed my account I requested history of game play , I was contacted on dec.1 and since then I have no reply to this matter:
Dear Marius,
Thank you for contacting Customer Service.
First of all, I would like to apologize for the late response.
I have escalated your request to our concerned department for further assistance. I can assure you we will do our best to provide the logs as soon as these are available, but this will unfortunately take longer, because the logs are archived every 7 days. We will get back to you as soon as we have the response from our respective department.


Also I know a story of a player who broke those conditions playing at Party Casino ( same T&C ) and he get paid ( around 1900 $ ) . I don't know if this changes something , that some players are paid and some not. I'll try to contact him to be sure that some evidence could be shown to sustain his story.

I consider:
WPT Casino has to mediate those players that had similar situation and give them part of the winnings
WPT Casino has to place in front bonus page the most important conditions.
WPT Casino has to define terms like "low margin betting" , "significantly" , "good grounds" for a clear interpretation , like in law articles .

I DON'T CLAIM I AM INNOCENT , I CLAIM THAT PARTY GRUP FORCES PLAYERS HAVING THE "OPPORTUNITY" TO BROKE SOME OF THEIR RULES AS I POINTED UPPER.
THE ONLY WAY YOU COULD AVOID THIS IN BIG WINNINGS CASES IS NOT TO PLAY AT THESE CASINOS : WPT , PARTY AND OTHER CASINOS WITH THE CAME T&C.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

SlotsLover

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Location
California
another issue

Yet another issue is the speed and amount of payment offered by most online casinos. I like to gamble on slots pretty big. Sometimes that results in a win of several $k (of course, most of the time I lose). Now, what do I do, for example, in the following situation:

I hit for 3 - 4k on a good spin and have approx 5k left to go on the wager req. Well, ideally, I would prefer to keep betting large, but continuing to bet large means I will either a) lose back a large portion of my win, or 2) hit again and win a lot more, maybe even 10k. Well, with casinos that pay in low installments, that means if I hit big I'll be waiting quite some time and if I don't hit, I'll lose a lot back. Seems much better to me if I lower the bet and keep to approx a 2k or so cashout.

Now, if the majority of online casinos would just pay in full within a week or so, no matter what the amount, then there would be much less reason to drop the bet. As I said, I love to play big, but when I hit big I am often just as concerned about hitting again big as I am to losing too much back because of the installment plan that many casinos offer.
 

zanzibar

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2008
Location
Earth
3 {(ii)} . "placing large bets which result in a substantial gain followed by a drop in bet size equal to or more than seventy five percent of the previous average bet size until the bonus release requirements have been met "
We conclude next bets are allowed: placing bets less than 75% of the previous average bet size if we gained a substantial amounth

To get the right sow by the ear , we are allowed to place bets that are more than low margin (1), less than 16.(6)%B if followed by the same bet size , game , bet structure , etc... (2) , unequal (1) , risky bets (1) , placing bets less than 75% of the previous average bet size if we gained a substantial amounth (3).

...

Due to rule no.3 we are forced to place bets less than 75% of the previous average bet size if we gained a substantial amounth .


You have misunderstood that condition. It means the exact opposite of what you think.

You are NOT allowed to place a bet that is 75% smaller than the last bet placed when you had a big win.

For example, lets imagine you are betting $100 per spin and you win $5000. Your following bets must be more than $25, not less.

This is their way of attempting to prevent you from minimising variance after you have a big win in order to "grind" out the wagering requirements and keep the majority of your win. Once again, the casinos should be programming these limits into the software as it is clear from this post that there are people that don't understand the terms they are agreeing to. Not to mention that the term "substantial gain" is totally up to subjective interpretation, and we all know who is going to win that fight between casino and player.
 

mariuspkr

Dormant account
PABnonaccred
Joined
Nov 24, 2011
Location
Vaslui
thankyou

Thankyou , As you can see is hard for a bad english speaker to understand that .
 

Realitybitez

Full Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Location
New Zealand
I would support a player on this one. Look - one has to read through this huge text to find out about the 70% rule:

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Why isn't it mentioned in the specific promotion terms ? It is an obvious trap for the not very cautious players.

There is one more strange thing here. Usually casino informs about this rule in the next form:

Intercasino: "In the interests of fair gaming, players may not place individual bets equal to or in excess of 10% or more of the value of the bonus credited to their account until such time as the wagering requirements for that bonus have been met."

Mummysgold: "Other examples of irregular game play include but are not limited to, placing single bets equal to or in excess of 30% or more of the value of the bonus credited to their account until such time as the wagering requirements for that bonus have been met"

Royal Vegas casino: "Placing single bets equal to or in excess of 30% or more of the value of the bonus credited to the account prior to the play-through requirement for that bonus having been met;"

Now look how it is presented at Party casino:

"placing single or multiple bets of a value of seventy percent or more of the bonus on any single game with the intention of clearing the bonus until the release requirements have been met; "

So even if the cautious player will try to read through this huge rules' section- he will look for percentage numbers (not words) and most certainly will miss it here. Smells not good at all! First , they hide this VERY IMPORTANT bonus rules deep into the 15 pages long rules section. And as if that was not enough- they use a trick of "words instead numbers" to make it even more difficult to find. Now you decide if the players is guilty or not.

I've run across that term in quite a few casinos where you are only allowed to bet a certain percent of the bonus. Perhaps, it happens with every casino? I have 'no' idea. I havent played every single casino.. hehe:D

But if you look at it, the casinos that you presented and their percent of the bonus you are allowed to wager is alot lower then what Party Casino offers. I've never played at Party Casino but considering they allow you to wager up to 70% of your bonus seems pretty good to me?:confused:

Please correct me if Im wrong:cool:
 

jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
Thankyou , As you can see is hard for a bad english speaker to understand that .

Damn, it's tough enough for even English first language speakers to wade through and understand some of the stuff that's out there :rolleyes:

Regrettably, over the years those who make a business of legally or illegally exploiting the T&Cs are primarily responsible for the continual ratcheting up of requirements and increasingly complex T&C language...it's attack and counter-defence for the operator in many cases, and your average recreational gambler unfortunately gets caught in the cross fire and endures a less enjoyable bonus experience as a result.

But for as long as bonuses continue to attract business in a competitive industry, I don't see things changing much.
 

TheLastCylon

Banned User - violation of rule 1.19
Supporting the player

I know this is old news, but I strongly support the player in this. I don't think it has anything to do with an escalating cold war between users and casinos. I think it has everything to do with numbers. Casinos want certain numbers and they are willing to do anything to achieve those numbers. If what they need to do sounds bad and would drive peopel away, they hide that in the T&C and then claim innocence when users get angry. I don't buy it. They aren't innocent. These bits of data should be HUGE, plain, and easy to read. I'm glad that I read this. I will never use this casino, I tell you what.
 

mariuspkr

Dormant account
PABnonaccred
Joined
Nov 24, 2011
Location
Vaslui
My complaint to EGBA against WPT no succes

EGBA to me :
Dear Sir,
We thank you for your email.
As previously mentioned in our email and since a satisfactory resolution cannot be found, we hereby advise you that, under the EGBA Standards, an independent third party is available for mediation or resolution of disputes. This service is provided by eCOGRA and is funded by the EGBA. To submit your dispute, please contact eCOGRA using the form available through the following link:
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. You will be contacted within two business days by a Fair Gaming Advocate.
We hope that you will be able to resolve this matter with them.
Best regards,
EGBA Team


me to EGBA :
Thankyou for investigating this .
How can I get a satisfactory answer from an institution under EGBA as long as EGBA culdn't find one ?
In this case please present me the actual , unsatisfactory resolution of the case and I will contact eCOGRA after.
Kind Regards ,
Marius


EGBA to me :
Dear Sir,
We thank you for your email.
Regarding the investigation, bwin.party remained on their position previously mentioned to you in their email (see below).
Again, please contact eCOGRA which is a service funded by EGBA for resolution of disputes.
We cannot help you further in this case.
Thank you for your interest in EGBA.
Best regards,
EGBA Team


this was strange , EGBA advice me to contact eCOGRA , also WPT happly advice me to contact eCOGRA to mediate this .
Who is EGBA ?

The EGBA is a not-for-profit association set up by the seven leading online gaming operators in Europe: PartyGaming, bwin Group, Unibet, bet-at-home.com, Expekt, Interwetten Gaming Ltd and digibet. EGBA believes that it is the right of its members who are all licensed and regulated within the European Union to be able to provide their services in those EU countries on a non-discriminatory basis as compared to any state-owned provider and also subject to restrictions which are aimed only at legitimate objectives. We believe that any anti-online gambling legislation which is proposed or upheld by individual member states is likely to be breaking EU law. The EGBA is fighting against this discriminatory legislation as we believe that it is being introduced primarily to protect state-run monopolies. A competitive environment, especially in the online world where technology reigns and trust in a brand is paramount, also helps promote consumer security and game fairness.

Now I understand I have no chance with EGBA , PartyGaming it's a member of them . Also ECOGRA is highly involved in european gaming activity . EGBA concerned at EC Green Paper on online gambling (
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).

Do I have a chance with eCOGRA ?
How independent is eCOGRA as lons as " eCOGRA which is a service funded by EGBA for resolution of disputes" ? (
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)

Sincerly I do not trust these guys anymore , please advice me who can I contact further in this matter . EUROMAT ? , Gaming Regulators European Forum ? Any comments and suggestions are welcomed . Thankyou all .
 

kavaman

Senior Member
PABnononaccred3
PABnononaccred3
MM
Joined
Dec 2, 2001
Location
finland
I think you have a chance with ecogra. Make a dispute with them when you can. 20th feb is the earliest, for some reason they seem to not be taking disputes now. Dispute process can be started from ecogra website
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. Just fill out the form when it comes available hopefully on feb 20th .
 
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