Resolved Winnings confiscated, deposit refunded.

[Copperpot]

Hello,

I recently made a thread saying about my gambling problem, since then I decided to deposit at another casino (I know..) to which I won and decided this would be my last ever one (Long story short, stopped gambling around '09. A few weeks back I had a couple of relapses, luckily I no longer get the 'empty my bank account' urge and it's a couple of deposits. Obviously I chased this one and managed to win my losses back and then some)


I registered on or around 23/05/2012 and made a withdrawal a few days later. *The withdrawal was in the pending state for a couple of days and today I was told my account has been blocked due to being on a negative database that their payment provider runs on, and as a result my winnings are cancelled and my deposit will be returned in 'due-course'

Now my first deposit to this casino was on 23/05/2012 according to my statements and several small one's thereafter so I cannot understand why I was stopped from signing up, and making a number of deposits? Only when I make a withdrawal am I told that I'm on a negative database.

Do you think I'd have been refunded had I lost? Why did it take this long? And most importantly, would this have only came to light when making a withdrawal? If so then I have my answer and tis all resolved, but given that it was flushed and waiting for over a day I'm not sure they couldn't have found out sooner.

Thanks

 

[skiny]

Maybe their payment provider doesn't look at your account unless it needs to umm.... Pay something?

 

[Copperpot]

Good thing I made a withdrawal then. For some reason I kept thinking the 'provider' was what dealt with deposits to the casino.

I guess this is all resolved now.

 

[Nifty29]

Hello,

I recently made a thread saying about my gambling problem, since then I decided to deposit at another casino (I know..) to which I won and decided this would be my last ever one (Long story short, stopped gambling around '09. A few weeks back I had a couple of relapses, luckily I no longer get the 'empty my bank account' urge and it's a couple of deposits. Obviously I chased this one and managed to win my losses back and then some)


I registered on or around 23/05/2012 and made a withdrawal a few days later. *The withdrawal was in the pending state for a couple of days and today I was told my account has been blocked due to being on a negative database that their payment provider runs on, and as a result my winnings are cancelled and my deposit will be returned in 'due-course'

Now my first deposit to this casino was on 23/05/2012 according to my statements and several small one's thereafter so I cannot understand why I was stopped from signing up, and making a number of deposits? Only when I make a withdrawal am I told that I'm on a negative database.

Do you think I'd have been refunded had I lost? Why did it take this long? And most importantly, would this have only came to light when making a withdrawal? If so then I have my answer and tis all resolved, but given that it was flushed and waiting for over a day I'm not sure they couldn't have found out sooner.

Thanks

Thing is, these checks are done after a withdrawal is made. It's not viable to do it beforehand, or when you signup, for reasons that have been outlined many times before.

When it comes to negative databases, it will be related to chargebacks most likely. Did you make any? Otherwise it might be an exclusion issue.

It's a good reason to quit again.

 

[Copperpot]

Thing is, these checks are done after a withdrawal is made. It's not viable to do it beforehand, or when you signup, for reasons that have been outlined many times before.

When it comes to negative databases, it will be related to chargebacks most likely. Did you make any? Otherwise it might be an exclusion issue.

It's a good reason to quit again.

They told me it was due to a self-exclusion, I'm guessing the recent casino I played at.

The only reason I asked was because I wasn't sure if they were 'having me on' as I had made a few deposits over the course of a week, but now I know the payment provider deals with withdrawals it all makes sense.

And it is a very good reason to quit again, if I did decide to have another gamble, this would make me think twice.

 

[Deeplay]

Hi this is why some casino groups do have blocked lists. Although it is questionable that they were ok to take your deposits and only spotted this when it came to withdraw. Either way in the long run its good for you if you really want to quit gambling as you are wide open to not being paid even if you do win. A great block to have in place for anyone fighting to quit online gambling.

I know myself even if I was desperate to deposit it would be pointless as im barred almost everywhere ha ha and even if a deposit did get through and I won the risk is not being paid. So whats the point in gambling in the first place ect. Anyone who is serious about needing/wanting to quit gambling due to it being a problem has to put in place as many blocks and stoppers as possible between themselves and the casinos. It can make all the difference. Good luck with it all

 

[Copperpot]

Hi this is why some casino groups do have blocked lists. Although it is questionable that they were ok to take your deposits and only spotted this when it came to withdraw. Either way in the long run its good for you if you really want to quit gambling as you are wide open to not being paid even if you do win. A great block to have in place for anyone fighting to quit online gambling.

I know myself even if I was desperate to deposit it would be pointless as im barred almost everywhere ha ha and even if a deposit did get through and I won the risk is not being paid. So whats the point in gambling in the first place ect. Anyone who is serious about needing/wanting to quit gambling due to it being a problem has to put in place as many blocks and stoppers as possible between themselves and the casinos. It can make all the difference. Good luck with it all

The payment processor I seem to be blocked from is 'Datacash' which from memory is what a lot of the casinos use. Which is good news for me and I'm sure they could probably be contacted directly to implement some type of block?

And any time I deposit the first worry is getting paid so now that's just multiplied and I've made a list of all the accredited casinos and I'm going to send a bulk email with my name and details. Which should further be another reason not to play anywhere.

The casino in question was Butlersbingo. They've contacted me to tell me that the 'block' at the other casino didn't take place until after I made my deposits, so they're looking into whether or not they can pay my winnings. They've been very helpful and remind me of 3dice i.e non-robotic reps.

 

[IanO]

Hi Everyone,

As the OP has pointed out the site in question was Butlers Bingo, and I've been in touch with him via PM to explain the situation.

Just to clarify for the rest of you, it would appear he made his deposits with us, then subsequently requested self exclusion at another site who use the same processor as us. His financial accounts were all immediately blocked as he was added to their database of excluded gamblers. This meant he was also blocked from making any further deposits with us.

Once the account with us was discovered it too was closed, but that did not happen until a couple of days later by which time he had already wagered and requested a withdrawal of his winnings. It was not actually the withdrawal request that triggered anything.

I hope that clears things up, and am glad this had been a further discouragement to the OP from a return to online gambling.

Ian

 

[Copperpot]

Update:

Butlersbingo sent me the winning funds, which is great. Really helpful and where it feels like other casinos wouldn't have looked into it and just not paid, Butler's took the correct route and came back with a verdict, regardless whether or not it was to keep the winnings. All proper.

 

[chuchu59]

Update:

Butlersbingo sent me the winning funds, which is great. Really helpful and where it feels like other casinos wouldn't have looked into it and just not paid, Butler's took the correct route and came back with a verdict, regardless whether or not it was to keep the winnings. All proper.

I am not sure whether they should have paid you. If you played and won before you self-excluded yourself at another casino then I tend to agree you should get paid. Otherwise, it may seem it could be a case of self-exclusion then play and if you lost you get your deposit refunded. I am not saying this is the case but the casino has to safeguard its own interests and yours as well. So though the casino has paid up I would dearly love to know whether this player made his bets before or after self-exclusion at another casino.

 

[IanO]

I am not sure whether they should have paid you. If you played and won before you self-excluded yourself at another casino then I tend to agree you should get paid.

That's exactly what happened Chu, otherwise he would not have been paid. The last thing we want to do is encourage someone with a gambling problem, but we also didn't want to hide behind that as an excuse not to pay legitimate winnings. Had he been abe to deposit and play after his exclusion request this all would have ended differently. I explained this to the OP straight away, and the only reason this dragged on for a bit was we had to double check the exact timings of everything and make sure we were doing the right thing.

Cooperpot, I'm glad you're satisfied with the resolution, but as I said in my PM and as you rightly pointed out yourself other operators may have taken a different line, and you should take this as a warning to stick to your convictions to stay away from online gaming. Best of luck.

IanO

 

[raj]

It's great that this customer got paid, and I had no doubts that Ian O would look at the situation and reach a just and sensible decision, as Butlers are a good, fair and genuine operation.

What still would seem unclear though is when you self exclude from an operator, what are you self excluding from? Is it solely from the company your are dealing with? Is it from anyone who uses the same payment processor? Is it from any other casino who happens to discover you are excluded somewhere else? Is it from anyone that uses the same software provider?

How are self exlcusion details shared within the industry and is this clear to the customer?

If operators are choosing to with hold winnings from excluded customers then I cannot see that they have any option than to return stakes of losing self excluded customers whose wagers are accepted in error. Any customer who is not eligable to receive winnings cannot possibly be expected to incur losses.

Unless the exclusion rules are made clear and uniform by all, then more disputes like this are likely to happen and not all will have such a happy ending.

Raj

 

[IanO]

How are self exlcusion details shared within the industry and is this clear to the customer?

Hi Raj,

Thanks for the compliment (your bribe is in the post ) . To answer your question, in this particular case the common thread was our payment processor. They look after the financial transactions for a few (otherwise unconnected) websites. If a player reports a problem with gambling, this gets relayed by the casino to the processor who make a note of it. If the same player then tries to open accounts at any other gaming sites the processor works with then they find their deposits blocked and their account soon closed.

IanO

 

[chuchu59]

Hi Raj,

Thanks for the compliment (your bribe is in the post ) . To answer your question, in this particular case the common thread was our payment processor. They look after the financial transactions for a few (otherwise unconnected) websites. If a player reports a problem with gambling, this gets relayed by the casino to the processor who make a note of it. If the same player then tries to open accounts at any other gaming sites the processor works with then they find their deposits blocked and their account soon closed.

IanO

Actually this brings self-exclusion to a higher level and offers more protection to the player than merely getting blocked at a casino the player requested self-exclusion for. This could, in a way, plug the hole for some players who ,for some reason such as forgetfulness, did not apply for self-exclusion across the board.

 

[raj]

Hi Raj,

If the same player then tries to open accounts at any other gaming sites the processor works with then they find their deposits blocked and their account soon closed.

IanO

This is the problem part, if an initial deposit is accepted and the customer does wager, should all play be voided win or lose? Is the customer entitled to a refund of any losing play accepted in error?

My own (personal) view remains that any play that happens prior to the self exclusion coming to the attention of a casino must stand, win or lose.

Raj

 

[IanO]

This is the problem part, if an initial deposit is accepted and the customer does wager, should all play be voided win or lose? Is the customer entitled to a refund of any losing play accepted in error?

My own (personal) view remains that any play that happens prior to the self exclusion coming to the attention of a casino must stand, win or lose.

Raj

Yup, that would be my personal view too, and The Butler agrees with me. Anything you do up until you request self exclusion for a gambling problem should stand, but any transactions after that should be voided, win or lose.

 

[vinylweatherman]

This is the problem part, if an initial deposit is accepted and the customer does wager, should all play be voided win or lose? Is the customer entitled to a refund of any losing play accepted in error?

My own (personal) view remains that any play that happens prior to the self exclusion coming to the attention of a casino must stand, win or lose.

Raj

Given the opaque nature of how self exclusion works, this is the fairest policy. It also removes the argument that losing deposits should be refunded on the grounds that no winnings would ever have been paid as the withdrawal would have triggered the checks that found out that the player was blocked.

Players are not always clear what they are asking for, and may in fact only want to self exclude from a site where they seem unable to get a "fair game", but play elsewhere with a different software. Since their registration and deposits are accepted, they are unaware that there is any issue in them getting paid, and they may lose a considerable amount before finding out they could never win.

If there was an argument, the casino could use this policy statement (with proof) to argue that since they would have paid any winnings that ocurred prior to the self exclusion being discovered, they should not be liable to refund losses made prior to this.

The OP could use these winnings to get some software that will help him in future moments of weakness, thus adding yet another obstacle to him signing up and playing elsewhere. Even this processor block will only cover a fraction of the thousands of sites available. A spam filter upgrade may also help so that emails offering incentives to join casinos do not turn up in the inbox.

 

[Copperpot]

I wasn't even aware that you could be blacklisted on the payment processor side of things. This wasn't the first time I'd been self excluded from a casino but never from the payment processor. They even said I was welcome back at any time which makes me think they didn't know about the above.

Thanks to Butlersbingo and the comments in this thread. My 'defense' is very strong this time round, being blacklisted from a popular payment processor leaves me with very few accredited casinos, plus I have around 40 casinos to email and give my details which further reinforces my urges not to gamble. Not only that but I don't even want to gamble and this was a relapse, 2 years ago I was gambling everyday with money I couldn't afford to lose. Nowadays it was one gamble here and there, but nothing to the above extent.

Just to add, I did email Kahnawake, they want me to send in some ID and they'll stick me on a blacklist. Which casinos use this company as I couldn't find any info?

That's exactly what happened Chu, otherwise he would not have been paid. The last thing we want to do is encourage someone with a gambling problem, but we also didn't want to hide behind that as an excuse not to pay legitimate winnings. Had he been abe to deposit and play after his exclusion request this all would have ended differently. I explained this to the OP straight away, and the only reason this dragged on for a bit was we had to double check the exact timings of everything and make sure we were doing the right thing.

Cooperpot, I'm glad you're satisfied with the resolution, but as I said in my PM and as you rightly pointed out yourself other operators may have taken a different line, and you should take this as a warning to stick to your convictions to stay away from online gaming. Best of luck.

IanO

Thanks Ian. Hopefully people will see this thread and try out your casino as I know trust plays a big part in where people play, this should clear that up though.
And your slots run super smooth, usually the bingo/casino sites have very dodgy/low quality slots. Yours were like playing on the dedicated MG software.

And as I previously said, I was annoyed at first as I didn't really understand why the deposit was accepted, but when you cleared it up I would have been fine with either of the winnings or refund as the intentions were genuine.


Copperpot

 

[msblast]

Update:

Butlersbingo sent me the winning funds, which is great. Really helpful and where it feels like other casinos wouldn't have looked into it and just not paid, Butler's took the correct route and came back with a verdict, regardless whether or not it was to keep the winnings. All proper.

you lucky one,

butlersbingo confiscate my winnings of 300€ and with alot PMs and emails give my deposited money back

the reason is an 4years old idiotic cheap unfair negative database entry from datacash, after that ihave many vip statusses over neteller and skrill

my account on butlersbingo is 7months old and they closed my account after ipush the withdrawal button

@ian nice to hear that you pay other members their winnings with an negative entry

you say you are fair?


@players make your own decision, iknow alot of really fair casinos
and ifeel butlersbingo is NOT fair

there are a couple of reason ican tell you
why? they want you to wager the seperate bingo bonus in the casino before withdrawal (in the terms is written cash balance is always withdrawable, and iuse no casino bonus, only an unused bingo bonus wich idont want because iam not a bingo player)

and the cash balance is NOT withdrawable instead written in the terms, if you have a seperate automatic bingo bonus received (wich is seperate)

and livechat told- trhere is no problem with a withdrawal, the bingo bonus will removed

(but dont tell you that the bingo bonus have to wager in the casino too even if you dont want it)

poor support, it was very hard and lot of days and mails to get my deposit back no solution was offered me

and on the top of that, ireferred for butlersbingo alot of players last year and invest alot of time, decieded to play myself a little and get kicked out like an bonuswhore

you cant handle players like that

very unprofessional and unfair!!!!

 

[akrus88]

you lucky one,

butlersbingo confiscate my winnings of 300€ and with alot PMs and emails give my deposited money back

the reason is an 4years old negative database entry from datacash, after that ihave many vip statusses over neteller and skrill

my account on butlersbingo is 7months old and they closed my account after ipush the withdrawal button

@ian nice to hear that you pay other members their winnings with an negative entry

you say you are fair?


@players make your own decision, iknow alot of really fair casinos
and ifeel butlersbingo is NOT fair

why? they want you to wager the seperate bingo bonus for the casino before withdrawal

and the cash balance is NOT withdrawable, if you have a bingo bonus received (wich is seperate)

poor support, it was very hard and lot of days to get my deposit back

It has got nothing to do with luck.
As what I understood. The reason player got payed, was because he/she selfexcluded (entering to negative list) after making the wagers. If he/she would have selfexcluded before making the wagers he/she would not have been paid (as in your case. Beeing in the negative list before making wagers).

 

[msblast]

It has got nothing to do with luck.
As what I understood. The reason player got payed, was because he/she selfexcluded (entering to negative list) after making the wagers. If he/she would have selfexcluded before making the wagers he/she would not have been paid (as in your case. Beeing in the negative list before making wagers).

its really funny that the best casinos on net - dont use the database from datacash , if youre on a list because an "chargeback" of a minimal value wich you dont authorized, maybe an issue
you dont have a chance to sort casinos out wich confiscate thousands of winnings from you in the future, and you still have no chance to get you out of that list!!

even if youre an millionaire and you are on the list 5years ago because an error/wrong bookes bank value of 5bucks

your thousands of bucks winnings will confiscated years after and you have no chance to see that before that the casino use this list

fair?

 

[chuchu59]

its really funny that the best casinos on net - dont use the database from datacash , if youre on a list because an "chargeback" of a minimal value wich you dont authorized, maybe an issue
you dont have a chance to sort casinos out wich confiscate thousands of winnings from you in the future, and you still have no chance to get you out of that list!!

even if youre an millionaire and you are on the list 5years ago because an error/wrong bookes bank value of 5bucks

your thousands of bucks winnings will confiscated years after and you have no chance to see that before that the casino use this list

fair?

Quite a valid point actually. This is akin to being bankrupt many years ago. Eventually the slate is wiped clean especially if the person involved has attempted to pay off all debts. Of course this differs from country to country but its worth considering in this industry as to how to be reborn lol.

 

[The Dude]

you lucky one,

butlersbingo confiscate my winnings of 300€ and with alot PMs and emails give my deposited money back

the reason is an 4years old idiotic cheap unfair negative database entry from datacash, after that ihave many vip statusses over neteller and skrill

my account on butlersbingo is 7months old and they closed my account after ipush the withdrawal button

@ian nice to hear that you pay other members their winnings with an negative entry

you say you are fair?


@players make your own decision, iknow alot of really fair casinos
and ifeel butlersbingo is NOT fair

there are a couple of reason ican tell you
why? they want you to wager the seperate bingo bonus in the casino before withdrawal (in the terms is written cash balance is always withdrawable, and iuse no casino bonus, only an unused bingo bonus wich idont want because iam not a bingo player)

and the cash balance is NOT withdrawable instead written in the terms, if you have a seperate automatic bingo bonus received (wich is seperate)

and livechat told- trhere is no problem with a withdrawal, the bingo bonus will removed

(but dont tell you that the bingo bonus have to wager in the casino too even if you dont want it)

poor support, it was very hard and lot of days and mails to get my deposit back no solution was offered me

and on the top of that, ireferred for butlersbingo alot of players last year and invest alot of time, decieded to play myself a little and get kicked out like an bonuswhore

you cant handle players like that

very unprofessional and unfair!!!!

You have an open PAB with this casino at the moment which I am taking the liberty of closing. Harassing the rep while an ongoing communication concerning your issue violates the PAB rules. So you're outta luck there.

Also, necromancing a year old thread with an agenda laden post is unnecessary; you could have just started a new thread.

And lastly, one who lives in a glass house should not be throwing stones. Catch my drift?

 

[IanO]

Hi msblast.

As akrus already pointed out these are two very different issues. One involved a problem gambler who had deposited and wagered before asking to be self excluded. The other is about a person who charged back at another casino long before playing here at Butlers.

Ian

edit: Bryan, thanks for stepping in but I think he had already withdrawn his PAB. Perhaps he just never confirmed this to Max.

 

[Slotster!]

Just want to give kudos to IanO for his input on this thread.

Accurate, reasoned and intelligent responses from an operator that have ultimately done the right thing in what could be a difficult, potentially incendiary situation.