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Bonus Complaint Winnings and deposits confiscated due to max bet breach at Royal Panda

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Non-Bonus Issues' started by stokes, Jan 25, 2016.

    Jan 25, 2016
  1. stokes

    stokes Experienced Greenhorn

    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Springfield
    Here is my story.

    I have started recently to play regularly at Royal Panda Casino after seeing fellow forum members good experience with them.
    I had several deposits and a couple of withdrawals within a month or so.

    My problem started after last Friday when I used their 50% bonus and won after dipping in to the bonus money.
    I played roulette with my usual play style (2-3 straight up bets each 2-4 USD), so my maximum bet was between 10-12 USD (maybe once or twice 13 due to double click).

    In their terms the maximum allowed bet is 7.5 USD, so I was overbetting.

    I kind of remember asking about max bet when I first used their bonus a couple of months ago and they said that the SW would not let me to do overbetting so no need to worry. I guess I might have mixed them with Videoslots (by the way are they related to ech other? I can see this banner when I play at Videoslots: This Netent game is operated by Panda Media Ltd, a company regulated in Malta.).

    So they removed my winnings. That's fine (not fine, but they don't want to show flexibility).

    BUT, they also removed my original deposit and the subsequent deposits (altogether 450 USD) which was only done to clear the wagering.

    I have contacted casino rep Melvin, who quickly replied even in the weekend, but he could not find any proof that I had misinformation how they operate (the embedded max bet function), so he advised the confiscation is fine.
    When I asked about my deposits, later I was sent an email from their support:

    We're very sorry for the situation, unfortunately due to the breach in terms and condition and as per our terms and conditions unfortunately no refunds can be made in this case.

    For me it is a rougish behavior.

    What do you think?
     
  2. Jan 25, 2016
  3. Tirilej

    Tirilej Still a Lady CAG MM

    Occupation:
    Breathing
    Location:
    Sweden
    Maybe you mixed it up with Videoslots but maybe not. You can still bet over the max bet there because you have to set the limits yourself.
    They are not related at all as far as I know.

    Some do place the deposit back but I guess that's from case to case. Otherwise many might try betting too high since they don't have anything to lose.

    Definitaly NOT roguish behaviour!!
     
  4. Jan 25, 2016
  5. lockinlove

    lockinlove Staring into the sun PABaccred

    Occupation:
    I work :D
    Location:
    Canada
    pretty sure hes suggesting that them taking his deposits too is rogue..not just the winnings
     
    4 people like this.
  6. Jan 25, 2016
  7. stokes

    stokes Experienced Greenhorn

    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Springfield
    It should not be case by case.
    If they have a system to check overbetting (as apparently they have) and they strict with the rule (as they do) how can a player win?

    I think they should have checked the history of my account (registered some time ago with several deposits, check the playing style etc.) and show some flexibility, but they did not. Fair enough, but confiscating my own money (especially those deposits which were done to clear wagering) is definetely a no-no in my book.

    By the way, I don't get why casinos's employ the max bet rule. You don't get any better RTP if you bet high (AFAIK), so in 99% of the cases player would lose and only 1% would win big (the RTP would remain the same). But this is another story.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2016
  8. Jan 25, 2016
  9. Tirilej

    Tirilej Still a Lady CAG MM

    Occupation:
    Breathing
    Location:
    Sweden
    I don't know if they do a case by case. I just said some are doing that.Some are strict and for the reason I mentioned.

    What you should have done is to read the rules before and all this had been avoided. If you don't like a max bet rule then don't play there.
    I know it must feel horrible, but it's not the casinos fault.

    Have you even discussed it with the reps before starting this thread?
     
  10. Jan 25, 2016
  11. stokes

    stokes Experienced Greenhorn

    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Springfield
    From my OP:

    I have contacted casino rep Melvin, who quickly replied even in the weekend, but he could not find any proof that I had misinformation how they operate (the embedded max bet function), so he advised the confiscation is fine.

    I need to repeat myself.

    They can confiscate my winnings based on their terms, but they should not do it with my own deposits. That is my issue.
     
  12. Jan 25, 2016
  13. hedgehok

    hedgehok Senior Member mm3

    Occupation:
    self-employed
    Location:
    Germany
    Royal Panda is operated by Royal Panda Limited.
    Videoslots is operated by Panda Media Limited.

    It's unfortunate that you've breached the max-bet limit and they can claim to confiscate your winnings.

    When it comes to the deposits you made in order to clear wagering requirements, here is my opinion:

    - If you have violated the max-bet term AFTER you have made the deposit I think they CAN confiscate winnings (not they should)
    - If you have violated the max-bet term BEFORE you have made the deposit I think the money should be refunded, since your mistake was done before the deposit and only the should be confiscated which where active when you made the max-bet mistake.
     
    4 people like this.
  14. Jan 25, 2016
  15. gagamel

    gagamel Professional smurf hunter MM

    Occupation:
    Care Manager
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Dipping into bonus money means to me that you lost your deposit if I understand it right.
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. Jan 25, 2016
  17. stokes

    stokes Experienced Greenhorn

    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Springfield
    The rules

    In the interest of fair gaming and fraud prevention, wagers placed using bonus money are subject to a maximum bet per game round limit. In most games, the maximum bet permitted when playing with bonus money is $7.50, €7.00, £5.00, or its equivalent in another currency. In the case of the following games, these operate with a deviating maximum bet of $1.50, €1.40, £1.00, or its equivalent in another currency, when playing with bonus money: Dead or Alive, Bloodsuckers, Kings of Chicago, Hellboy. In case of a breach of this rule, the player agrees that his bonus and any associated winnings may be void.

    And in other part of the terms:

    Royal Panda reserves the right to withdraw the bonus and possible profits if any term of the promotion has been breached. The player can be held responsible for possible costs Royal Panda incurs due to the breach of the player.

    I don't see anywhere that they could confiscate my own funds except that "possible costs Royal Panda incurs due to the breach of the player" which is nothing in this case.
     
    2 people like this.
  18. Jan 25, 2016
  19. stokes

    stokes Experienced Greenhorn

    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Springfield
    It means that they have a special bonus system which you can read about at other threads.
    Basically I could withdraw my winnings before any wagering if I did not use the bonus. For example I deposit 100 then I get 50 as a bonus. I start to play with my own money and I can withdrawa without wagering if my balance would not go under 50.

    So to answer your question, I lost my 100 and then I won with the bonus.
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. Jan 25, 2016
  21. gagamel

    gagamel Professional smurf hunter MM

    Occupation:
    Care Manager
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Now I understand. First you played your deposit and lost it. Your deposit was gone so you played with the bonus. You broke the bonus rules and they delete your bonus.

    Why should they give you your deposit back? You already lost it.
     
  22. Jan 25, 2016
  23. stokes

    stokes Experienced Greenhorn

    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Springfield
    Your logic is flawed.
    I have redeposited 350 USD to clear the wagering which I would not have done If I knew that they would void my winnings.
     
  24. Jan 25, 2016
  25. citizenx

    citizenx Meister Member MM

    Occupation:
    Stuff
    Location:
    UK
    OK well if you lost your deposits then they aren't confiscating them, are they?

    Correct me if i'm wrong but that's my interpretation.

    If you were left playing with bonus funds then you were out and breached the rules.

    IF you'd made deposits AFTER this then you may have a point but if not then I don't really see the issue.

    That said, I'm not inclined to play there because I don't like the bonus system. It's definitely put me off.
     
  26. Jan 25, 2016
  27. hedgehok

    hedgehok Senior Member mm3

    Occupation:
    self-employed
    Location:
    Germany
    Guys, RP has a unique bonus system where only non-bonus (or real money) wagering will contribute to wagering requirements.

    After OP lost his initial deposit and played with the bonus he was able to increase his bonus-balance (I assume) and redeposited cash to clear wagering requirements.

    If his bonus-balance is already doomed due to breach of T&C every real-money deposits afterwards are thrown into the abyss too. I follow his reasoning in this point. Only deposits prior to his T&C-breach should be confiscated. This issue can only happen at RP due to its unique bonus structure.
     
    9 people like this.
  28. Jan 25, 2016
  29. gagamel

    gagamel Professional smurf hunter MM

    Occupation:
    Care Manager
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Thank you for pointing this out Hedge
     
  30. Jan 26, 2016
  31. Melvin - Panda

    Melvin - Panda Accredited Casino Representative

    Occupation:
    Casino Manager
    Location:
    Malta
    Hi stokes,

    I understand your frustration and the effort you put in to receive the bonus by posting on the public forum, but it would be nice to include the full story.

    Indeed on Saturday you wrote me about your issue with the bonus which was forfeit by our staff. I promised you to look into it for you, which I did. You are correct that I stated our support did not ever claim that our system prevents you from betting higher than allowed, but I went beyond that and showed you a transcript where our support Mateusz actually correctly informed you on our rules on 16 January, after which you acknowledged that you understood them.

    Since I wanted to look into it further now, I found that also our support Anna has informed you about these terms via chat on 26 December. This means that you have been correctly informed via live chat twice.

    Since your further deposits to clear your bonus were made after you were informed by our support team twice about the bonus terms and conditions, and on top of that you made the false claim that you were misinformed about this, the decision stays the same as it was before.

    Note that we would not confiscate your real money, even in the event of a bonus breach. However you had no cash balance left at the time of your withdrawal.

    We do look at these things on a case by case basis, unfortunately in your case this is not in your favor.

    Do let me know if there is anything else that I can do for you.

    Melvin
     
  32. Jan 26, 2016
  33. stokes

    stokes Experienced Greenhorn

    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Springfield
    Hi Melvin,

    I am sorry, but I fail to see which part was not included in my story? I mentioned that I claimed (probably falsely) that I was informed that you have a system which prevents overbetting.

    Who do you think in right mind would do deposits knowing that their winnings AND deposits will be confiscated?

    You could have shown flexibilty after checking my play style (you can not win roulette if you play like this unless you are lucky) and pay my winnings, but you did not. Fair enough. BUT, you can not keep my deposits which was only done (due to your "special" bonus system) to clear the wagering.

    Stokes
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2016
  34. Jan 26, 2016
  35. Casino2014man

    Casino2014man Non-Gambler

    Occupation:
    Noneya
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I have to say, having seen what has been said about how this bonus works, if the winnings are confiscated then the deposit should of course be refunded if you have to deposit further times to get through this bonus..
     
    5 people like this.
  36. Jan 26, 2016
  37. ginzink

    ginzink Non-Gambler

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Norway
    I agree with the casino on the point that they should not let you keep the winnings. The terms were broken and you were informed twice of the rules.
    However i agree 100% with OP that the deposits (execept initial triggering bonus as he was informed twice of rules)should be refunded, the way the casino handeled that part is close to fraud in my opinion!
     
    1 person likes this.
  38. Jan 26, 2016
  39. lotusch

    lotusch Noob Webby webby PABaccred mm2

    Occupation:
    Fraud & Underwriting Team VRP / YapStone
    Location:
    Dún Dealgan
    To be honest,I feel the deposits should be refunded in this case.
    I feel the casino is not really playing fair on this one.
    Now you confiscate the players winnings and get to keep his deposits because of those stupid shady bonus t&c's.
    That's exactly why I don't play with any bonus as they can only work against you and give the casino an extra edge versus the player.

    Wish you good luck Stokes and I tend to be on the players side on this one.
     
    1 person likes this.

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