Bonus Complaint Winnings and deposits confiscated due to max bet breach at Royal Panda

stokes

Experienced Greenhorn
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Location
Springfield
Here is my story.

I have started recently to play regularly at Royal Panda Casino after seeing fellow forum members good experience with them.
I had several deposits and a couple of withdrawals within a month or so.

My problem started after last Friday when I used their 50% bonus and won after dipping in to the bonus money.
I played roulette with my usual play style (2-3 straight up bets each 2-4 USD), so my maximum bet was between 10-12 USD (maybe once or twice 13 due to double click).

In their terms the maximum allowed bet is 7.5 USD, so I was overbetting.

I kind of remember asking about max bet when I first used their bonus a couple of months ago and they said that the SW would not let me to do overbetting so no need to worry. I guess I might have mixed them with Videoslots (by the way are they related to ech other? I can see this banner when I play at Videoslots: This Netent game is operated by Panda Media Ltd, a company regulated in Malta.).

So they removed my winnings. That's fine (not fine, but they don't want to show flexibility).

BUT, they also removed my original deposit and the subsequent deposits (altogether 450 USD) which was only done to clear the wagering.

I have contacted casino rep Melvin, who quickly replied even in the weekend, but he could not find any proof that I had misinformation how they operate (the embedded max bet function), so he advised the confiscation is fine.
When I asked about my deposits, later I was sent an email from their support:

We're very sorry for the situation, unfortunately due to the breach in terms and condition and as per our terms and conditions unfortunately no refunds can be made in this case.

For me it is a rougish behavior.

What do you think?
 

Tirilej

Still a Lady
CAG
MM
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Sweden
Maybe you mixed it up with Videoslots but maybe not. You can still bet over the max bet there because you have to set the limits yourself.
They are not related at all as far as I know.

Some do place the deposit back but I guess that's from case to case. Otherwise many might try betting too high since they don't have anything to lose.

Definitaly NOT roguish behaviour!!
 

lockinlove

Staring into the sun
PABaccred
PABnonaccred
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Location
Canada
Maybe you mixed it up with Videoslots but maybe not. You can still bet over the max bet there because you have to set the limits yourself.
They are not related at all as far as I know.

Some do place the deposit back but I guess that's from case to case. Otherwise many might try betting too high since they don't have anything to lose.

Definitaly NOT roguish behaviour!!

pretty sure hes suggesting that them taking his deposits too is rogue..not just the winnings
 

stokes

Experienced Greenhorn
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Location
Springfield
Maybe you mixed it up with Videoslots but maybe not. You can still bet over the max bet there because you have to set the limits yourself.
They are not related at all as far as I know.

Some do place the deposit back but I guess that's from case to case. Otherwise many might try betting too high since they don't have anything to lose.

Definitaly NOT roguish behaviour!!

It should not be case by case.
If they have a system to check overbetting (as apparently they have) and they strict with the rule (as they do) how can a player win?

I think they should have checked the history of my account (registered some time ago with several deposits, check the playing style etc.) and show some flexibility, but they did not. Fair enough, but confiscating my own money (especially those deposits which were done to clear wagering) is definetely a no-no in my book.

By the way, I don't get why casinos's employ the max bet rule. You don't get any better RTP if you bet high (AFAIK), so in 99% of the cases player would lose and only 1% would win big (the RTP would remain the same). But this is another story.
 
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Tirilej

Still a Lady
CAG
MM
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Sweden
It should not be case by case.
If they have a system to check overbetting (as apparently they have) and they strict with the rule (as they do) how can a player win?

I think they should have checked the history of my account (registered some time ago with several deposits, check the playing style etc.) and show some flexibility, but they did not. Fair enough, but confiscating my own money (especially those deposits which were done to clear wagering) is definetely a no-no in my book.

By the way, I don't get why casinos's employ the max bet rule. You don't get any better RTP if you bet high (AFAIK), so in 99% of the cases player would lose and only 1% would win big (the RTP would remain the same). But this is another story.

I don't know if they do a case by case. I just said some are doing that.Some are strict and for the reason I mentioned.

What you should have done is to read the rules before and all this had been avoided. If you don't like a max bet rule then don't play there.
I know it must feel horrible, but it's not the casinos fault.

Have you even discussed it with the reps before starting this thread?
 

stokes

Experienced Greenhorn
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Location
Springfield
Have you even discussed it with the reps before starting this thread?

From my OP:

I have contacted casino rep Melvin, who quickly replied even in the weekend, but he could not find any proof that I had misinformation how they operate (the embedded max bet function), so he advised the confiscation is fine.

I need to repeat myself.

They can confiscate my winnings based on their terms, but they should not do it with my own deposits. That is my issue.
 

hedgehok

Meister Member
mm3
Joined
Jul 30, 2014
Location
Germany
Royal Panda is operated by Royal Panda Limited.
Videoslots is operated by Panda Media Limited.

It's unfortunate that you've breached the max-bet limit and they can claim to confiscate your winnings.

When it comes to the deposits you made in order to clear wagering requirements, here is my opinion:

- If you have violated the max-bet term AFTER you have made the deposit I think they CAN confiscate winnings (not they should)
- If you have violated the max-bet term BEFORE you have made the deposit I think the money should be refunded, since your mistake was done before the deposit and only the should be confiscated which where active when you made the max-bet mistake.
 

gagamel

Professional smurf hunter
Joined
Apr 4, 2012
Location
Switzerland
Here is my story.

I have started recently to play regularly at Royal Panda Casino after seeing fellow forum members good experience with them.
I had several deposits and a couple of withdrawals within a month or so.

My problem started after last Friday when I used their 50% bonus and won after dipping in to the bonus money.
I played roulette with my usual play style (2-3 straight up bets each 2-4 USD), so my maximum bet was between 10-12 USD (maybe once or twice 13 due to double click).

In their terms the maximum allowed bet is 7.5 USD, so I was overbetting.

I kind of remember asking about max bet when I first used their bonus a couple of months ago and they said that the SW would not let me to do overbetting so no need to worry. I guess I might have mixed them with Videoslots (by the way are they related to ech other? I can see this banner when I play at Videoslots: This Netent game is operated by Panda Media Ltd, a company regulated in Malta.).

So they removed my winnings. That's fine (not fine, but they don't want to show flexibility).

BUT, they also removed my original deposit and the subsequent deposits (altogether 450 USD) which was only done to clear the wagering.

I have contacted casino rep Melvin, who quickly replied even in the weekend, but he could not find any proof that I had misinformation how they operate (the embedded max bet function), so he advised the confiscation is fine.
When I asked about my deposits, later I was sent an email from their support:

We're very sorry for the situation, unfortunately due to the breach in terms and condition and as per our terms and conditions unfortunately no refunds can be made in this case.

For me it is a rougish behavior.

What do you think?

Dipping into bonus money means to me that you lost your deposit if I understand it right.
 

stokes

Experienced Greenhorn
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Location
Springfield
The rules

In the interest of fair gaming and fraud prevention, wagers placed using bonus money are subject to a maximum bet per game round limit. In most games, the maximum bet permitted when playing with bonus money is $7.50, €7.00, £5.00, or its equivalent in another currency. In the case of the following games, these operate with a deviating maximum bet of $1.50, €1.40, £1.00, or its equivalent in another currency, when playing with bonus money: Dead or Alive, Bloodsuckers, Kings of Chicago, Hellboy. In case of a breach of this rule, the player agrees that his bonus and any associated winnings may be void.

And in other part of the terms:

Royal Panda reserves the right to withdraw the bonus and possible profits if any term of the promotion has been breached. The player can be held responsible for possible costs Royal Panda incurs due to the breach of the player.

I don't see anywhere that they could confiscate my own funds except that "possible costs Royal Panda incurs due to the breach of the player" which is nothing in this case.
 

stokes

Experienced Greenhorn
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Location
Springfield
Dipping into bonus money means to me that you lost your deposit if I understand it right.

It means that they have a special bonus system which you can read about at other threads.
Basically I could withdraw my winnings before any wagering if I did not use the bonus. For example I deposit 100 then I get 50 as a bonus. I start to play with my own money and I can withdrawa without wagering if my balance would not go under 50.

So to answer your question, I lost my 100 and then I won with the bonus.
 

gagamel

Professional smurf hunter
Joined
Apr 4, 2012
Location
Switzerland
It means that they have a special bonus system which you can read about at other threads.
Basically I could withdraw my winnings before any wagering if I did not use the bonus. For example I deposit 100 then I get 50 as a bonus. I start to play with my own money and I can withdrawa without wagering if my balance would not go under 50.

So to answer your question, I lost my 100 and then I won with the bonus.

Now I understand. First you played your deposit and lost it. Your deposit was gone so you played with the bonus. You broke the bonus rules and they delete your bonus.

Why should they give you your deposit back? You already lost it.
 

stokes

Experienced Greenhorn
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Location
Springfield
Now I understand. First you played your deposit and lost it. Your deposit was gone so you played with the bonus. You broke the bonus rules and they delete your bonus.

Why should they give you your deposit back? You already lost it.

Your logic is flawed.
I have redeposited 350 USD to clear the wagering which I would not have done If I knew that they would void my winnings.
 

citizenx

Non-Gambler
Joined
Nov 29, 2012
Location
UK
It means that they have a special bonus system which you can read about at other threads.
Basically I could withdraw my winnings before any wagering if I did not use the bonus. For example I deposit 100 then I get 50 as a bonus. I start to play with my own money and I can withdrawa without wagering if my balance would not go under 50.

So to answer your question, I lost my 100 and then I won with the bonus.

OK well if you lost your deposits then they aren't confiscating them, are they?

Correct me if i'm wrong but that's my interpretation.

If you were left playing with bonus funds then you were out and breached the rules.

IF you'd made deposits AFTER this then you may have a point but if not then I don't really see the issue.

That said, I'm not inclined to play there because I don't like the bonus system. It's definitely put me off.
 

hedgehok

Meister Member
mm3
Joined
Jul 30, 2014
Location
Germany
Guys, RP has a unique bonus system where only non-bonus (or real money) wagering will contribute to wagering requirements.

After OP lost his initial deposit and played with the bonus he was able to increase his bonus-balance (I assume) and redeposited cash to clear wagering requirements.

If his bonus-balance is already doomed due to breach of T&C every real-money deposits afterwards are thrown into the abyss too. I follow his reasoning in this point. Only deposits prior to his T&C-breach should be confiscated. This issue can only happen at RP due to its unique bonus structure.
 

Melvin - Panda

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 28, 2015
Location
Malta
Hi stokes,

I understand your frustration and the effort you put in to receive the bonus by posting on the public forum, but it would be nice to include the full story.

Indeed on Saturday you wrote me about your issue with the bonus which was forfeit by our staff. I promised you to look into it for you, which I did. You are correct that I stated our support did not ever claim that our system prevents you from betting higher than allowed, but I went beyond that and showed you a transcript where our support Mateusz actually correctly informed you on our rules on 16 January, after which you acknowledged that you understood them.

Since I wanted to look into it further now, I found that also our support Anna has informed you about these terms via chat on 26 December. This means that you have been correctly informed via live chat twice.

Since your further deposits to clear your bonus were made after you were informed by our support team twice about the bonus terms and conditions, and on top of that you made the false claim that you were misinformed about this, the decision stays the same as it was before.

Note that we would not confiscate your real money, even in the event of a bonus breach. However you had no cash balance left at the time of your withdrawal.

We do look at these things on a case by case basis, unfortunately in your case this is not in your favor.

Do let me know if there is anything else that I can do for you.

Melvin
 

stokes

Experienced Greenhorn
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Location
Springfield
Hi Melvin,

I am sorry, but I fail to see which part was not included in my story? I mentioned that I claimed (probably falsely) that I was informed that you have a system which prevents overbetting.

Who do you think in right mind would do deposits knowing that their winnings AND deposits will be confiscated?

You could have shown flexibilty after checking my play style (you can not win roulette if you play like this unless you are lucky) and pay my winnings, but you did not. Fair enough. BUT, you can not keep my deposits which was only done (due to your "special" bonus system) to clear the wagering.

Stokes
 
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Casino2014man

Non-Gambler
Joined
Oct 24, 2014
Location
United Kingdom
I have to say, having seen what has been said about how this bonus works, if the winnings are confiscated then the deposit should of course be refunded if you have to deposit further times to get through this bonus..
 

ginzink

Non-Gambler
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Location
Norway
I agree with the casino on the point that they should not let you keep the winnings. The terms were broken and you were informed twice of the rules.
However i agree 100% with OP that the deposits (execept initial triggering bonus as he was informed twice of rules)should be refunded, the way the casino handeled that part is close to fraud in my opinion!
 

lotusch

A little mix of Dutch and Irish
Joined
Jun 3, 2013
Location
Dún Dealgan
To be honest,I feel the deposits should be refunded in this case.
I feel the casino is not really playing fair on this one.
Now you confiscate the players winnings and get to keep his deposits because of those stupid shady bonus t&c's.
That's exactly why I don't play with any bonus as they can only work against you and give the casino an extra edge versus the player.

Wish you good luck Stokes and I tend to be on the players side on this one.
 

Melvin - Panda

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 28, 2015
Location
Malta
Hi Melvin,

I am sorry, but I fail to see which part was not included in my story? I mentioned that I claimed (probably falsely) that I was informed that you have a system which prevents overbetting.

Who do you think in right mind would do deposits knowing that their winnings AND deposits will be confiscated?

You could have shown flexibilty after checking my play style (you can not win roulette if you play like this unless you are lucky) and pay my winnings, but you did not. Fair enough. BUT, you can not keep my deposits which was only done (due to your "special" bonus system) to clear the wagering.

Stokes

Hi Stokes, sorry I meant the part where you were actually correctly informed by our support. In my opinion this is actually important information.

About refunding the deposits:

Your deposits were never restricted, and any money you would have won would have been free to cash out as well.

This also means that your deposits were never confiscated. If you had anything left of your deposit, and anything you would have won with it, this would have been free to withdraw by you.

There is a difference between losing your funds, and having funds confiscated.
 

stokes

Experienced Greenhorn
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Location
Springfield
There is no difference as I had more than 1200 USD (my winnings) on my account, so I would not have deposited just to play. I deposited to clear the wagering. Which I did, and then you decided to void my winnings.

Your bonus system is even worse than the normal ones where I can only lose my initial deposit (but some reputable casino would refund that too).
 
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hedgehok

Meister Member
mm3
Joined
Jul 30, 2014
Location
Germany
Well you MUST have a cash balance to clear wagering in the first place. So OP certainly had some real cash before meeting WR.

Stokes, your last deposit (which led to clearing WR), how much of it was still left until the bonus converted itself into the cash balance?
In the worst case scenario this at least should be yours to keep.

Example: If you deposited $150 to clear the (poisoned) bonus and you had $200 at the time your bonus converted itself into your total balance (let's assume $1000 bonus, because you said $1200 in the above post) then $200 should be yours to keep.
 

Melvin - Panda

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 28, 2015
Location
Malta
The requested withdrawal amount was also less than the bonus, so Stokes must have continued playing after clearing the bonus.

From our point of view, a cashback of his deposits would not make sense because we would also not have confiscated any winnings if he had won. If we would refund any losses, but not confiscate winnings, this would actually open up for abuse. (First breach bonus terms, then deposit and gamble however you want. If you win, you can cash out the winnings, if you lose you can ask for a refund). I do not claim that Stokes was trying to do this, but it shows that it is not as simple as being able to refund someone who tries to clear a bonus after breaching the terms.

The fact is that Stokes was informed twice about the exact bonus terms, before making additional deposits. This, combined with an incorrect claim of misinformation, has resulted in the decision to not pay out the bonus winnings.
 

stokes

Experienced Greenhorn
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Location
Springfield
Well you MUST have a cash balance to clear wagering in the first place. So OP certainly had some real cash before meeting WR.

Stokes, your last deposit (which led to clearing WR), how much of it was still left until the bonus converted itself into the cash balance?
In the worst case scenario this at least should be yours to keep.

Example: If you deposited $150 to clear the (poisoned) bonus and you had $200 at the time your bonus converted itself into your total balance (let's assume $1000 bonus, because you said $1200 in the above post) then $200 should be yours to keep.

I am not sure of that as did not watch constantly the wagering status (for that I would have closed the game I played and go to my account settings).
So I kept playing for a while before I checked the wagering and saw that I have cleared it. It is possible that I finished the wagering an played away the excess balance (the not poisoned part as you put it).
 
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