willpkr VS Expekt.com

[willpkr]

Today i was playing on the live casino at Expekt.com, and due to a software issue,
both my hands were displayed as 3+7 (10) upon being dealt, however I was really dealt 20 (king, 10) on one hand, (the other hand being correct as a 10).
This caused me to hit on my first hand, ending up with a score of 29.

The dealer had a score of 17.

Therefore i SHOULD have lost my bet of 3,7,3=13 (stand) but my bet of 10,10,9 should have been won, because without a software error i would of course have chosen to stand.

I voiced my issue in the chat box and had the following conversation with the pitboss.
Basically they are making excuses that the error was on my side and are refusing to credit my account with the $10k i should have won.

Welcome to Blackjack VIP B
william: why does my hand say 10
william: its shd be 20...
william: CLICK TO CHAT
william: no
william: its not
william: sorry
william: hey can u pls
william: i was confused
william: dealer
william: it said 10 for me
william: can u void that one please it was not fair
william: in hand 3
william: i had 20 but it said 10
william: dealer i hit on 20 obviously i would not have done that
william: Jekaterina.
Pitboss Q: Hello Sir
Pitboss Q: Can I help you?
william: hi, i hit on 20 because it said i had 10
william: ofc i would not have done that
william: so can u please change it to a stand
william: on hand 3
william: i lost my other hand fairly but not hand 3
william: hello Pitboss?
Pitboss Q: This might occur due to the overcrowded browser's cache memory or due to the use of browser, which does not meet Live Dealer requirements (the browser required is IE). Therefore, the Shift Manager reminds to players constantly in the chat to clear cache and delete cookies, besides the player should follow both the virtual total hand value and the cards being dealt to his seat.
william: i would not have hit on a 20 sir, its a software error and i please ask you to correct that bet
william: it said i had 10 ...
william: May i talk to somebody on the phone
Pitboss Q: Sir you are welcome to contact your Casino Customer Support
william: please can you sort this out i know you can do it, this is extremely unfair
william: who in their right mind would hit on a 20?
william: pitboss
Pitboss Q: Sir it works fine from our side
william: please can you be fair
william: it was an obvious error in the software
Pitboss Q: Sir we are
william: if you correct it to a stand then you are, otherwise it is NOT fair, it said i had 10
Pitboss Q: I told you why this might occur
william: sir.. i am speechless
william: you are not going to corect the bet?
william: I did not lose fairly, and it was a software issue that caused me to hit on a 20
william: if this is not resolved i will be talking to casino meister
william: and this whole chat has been logged
Pitboss Nataly: Hello Sir,
william: hello
william: i am really pulling my hair out here, it is unreal
william: please do the right thing
Pitboss Nataly: You have two video views
Pitboss Nataly: so, you can see the cards in real action as soon as they are dealt
william: it said i had 10! and i hit on a 20
william: what more is there to say
william: it should abolustely be corrected
william: as i say this is all being logged
william: Natalie
Pitboss Nataly: Sir, such issues might be caused due to your connection
william: No ! it was not caused by my connection
Pitboss Nataly: How is your connection working?
william: it is working perfectly
william: i have never experienced suuch an issue before
william: and the simple fact i hit on a 20..?!
william: come on now.
william: do you have a conscience???
william: may i talk to you on the phone
william: No i cant?
william: i am talking to pitboss
Pitboss Nataly: Sir, i will proceed to inform our Technical Team about this issue
jim has joined the table.
william: the issues with your software isnt my concern
jim has left the table.
william: its the fact i have lost my money unfairly
william: so please correct that bet
Pitboss Nataly: They will check the game properly in order to confirm whether problem occured from our side or not
william: ok well, you seem to be not want to be fair at all
william: so, i guess i have no choice but to request assistance from casino meister and inform people on the
william: forums
Pitboss Nataly: If the problem occured from our side, your stake will be refunded
william: my stake should not be refunded
Pitboss Nataly: could you, please specify in which game did the issue occur?
william: my bet should be WON
william: i am sure you have logs, it is the last game i played
william: i placed 2 bets, one which i lost fairly, one which i did not lose fairly
william: 00:23:03.697
Pitboss Nataly: I have found that game
william: as you can see, i hit on a 20. if i had not had the error of course iw ould have stood
Pitboss Nataly: please see the details:
Pitboss Nataly: Blackjack on: 04/06/11 00:23:03 UTC
Pitboss Nataly: YOur 1 hand: King of Clubs, 10 of Spades, 9 of Diamonds, Total: 29
Pitboss Nataly: YOur 2 hand: 7 of Diamonds, 3 of Diamonds, 3 of Diamonds, Total: 13
Pitboss Nataly: Dealer: 4 of Hearts, King of Diamonds, 3 of Diamonds, Total: 17
william: thats correct
william: therefore i should have lost the second bet
william: but not the first
william: so please do the right thing
william: besides. if you think youre saving money by being unfair
william: just realise that i will make a Big issue of this
william: conversely if you do the right thing i will let people know about it
Pitboss Nataly: please allow me some time, I will provide you the tracking Reference number
william: tracking reference number..??
william: i am not going to wait around for you to turn around and shirk responsbillity
william: by the way
Pitboss Nataly: Sir, according to our policy first of all the game should be checked by our Technical Engineers
william: sorry but this isnt good enough
Pitboss Nataly: In order to confirm whether problem occured from our side or not
william: there is NO QUESTIOn that it should be resolved immeditately
william: it is irrelevent and you know that
Pitboss Nataly: If problem occured from our side, you will get a refund
william: any reputable company would correct it
william: by the way
william: i am good friends with a certain toni who plays here A LOT
william: now i expect this to be corrected tonight
william: and you know you should
william: so youre not going to correct it ?
Pitboss Nataly: Sir, according to our policy I will inform our Technical Engineers about this issue
Pitboss Nataly: The game will be checked properly
william: well according to my principles, i will inform as many people as possible about this
Pitboss Nataly: In order to confirm whether problem occured from our side or not
william: the money is neither here or there for me, i am not a poor man. but to not play fairly, its not on
william: so i have just logged into my casino meister account and am about to proceed, unless you be fair
william: Nataly? Or whoever im talking to?...are you still there.
william: im talking to the pitboss since they screwed me over on other game, when due to software i hit on 20
william: i need assistance yes
william: thank you
Pitboss Nataly: yes, william?
william: hi nataly.
william: im just filling in a complaint form and am preparing a forum post
william: but would like to just confirm, you are still not being fair
Pitboss Nataly: william, after few minutes I will provide you the Reference number of the issue
Pitboss Nataly: please wait a little bit
william: a little bit.. ? it is the weekend. it is not going to be a little bit im sure
william: i dont have time for this, either you are going to correct the issue or you arent
Pitboss Nataly: please wait 2 minutes more
william: for a number...?
william: i am not interested in a number nataly im interested in my bet being corrected, immediately
william: so i have taken screenshots, chat logs and so on and am preparing forum posts and a CM complaint
william: and am going to tell my friend tonimw20 of this, i dont think you want to lose him as a player
Pitboss Nataly: william, the issue has been tracked under teh reference number CI-7602
Pitboss Nataly: YOu will be informed as soona s investigation result is known
william: sorry but thats not good enough

I will be filing a complaint with casino meister to try and help me, but i wanted to inform people so that people are aware of their practises.

 

[Nifty29]

Threatening to post here to force a casino to meet your demands is very uncool.

You may have damaged your chances of any PAB being accepted.

What was the pitboss saying about "following the virtual hand value"? If the software gave the actual hand value and it didn't match the cards displayed, you should have stopped playing immediately.

 

[willpkr]

Threatening to post here to force a casino to meet your demands is very uncool.

You may have damaged your chances of any PAB being accepted.

What was the pitboss saying about "following the virtual hand value"? If the software gave the actual hand value and it didn't match the cards displayed, you should have stopped playing immediately.

No, the software displayed the incorrect value. It displayed both of my hands as having the same cards

 

[Nifty29]

The pitboss mentioned 2 video views.

One would be the virtual representation I assume and the other the actual table with real cards. So what were the real cards? Or were you only watching the virtual view?

I just don't see if the cards are being dealt live how you could "see" it as something else.

Something doesn't sound right here.

It's also important to note they have NOT flatly refused to pay as they are investigating.....which is why threats etc can be counter-productive.

 

[mellakka]

Wow, that was blackmailing indeed. I don't even understand how did u dare to post those logs, and btw you forget one "card" after you use "i will meister" "i PAB RIGHT NOW! "I will tell everyone" "did you know i have some powerful friends?" u did not pull "chargeback card" yet... pff and u do all that for in one chat session when rep told they will take look on this? Hope you have just prespend your PAB-card

 

[vinylweatherman]

That does not look like a "live" casino at all. This seems to be a normal software based game that just has an animated dealer avatar, rather than the usual virtual table, or even one with cartoon dealer hands.

Blaming the client PC is an easy cop-out, but it is THEIR software that is running on the players' PC, and it should be programmed so that it does NOT malfunction in this way just because of a crowded cache, crappy browser, etc. The software should be CHECKING that it has the local resources needed to operate, and if it doesn't it should HALT, and give the player a meaningful error message, NOT take their money under false pretences.

Players RELY on what we see on our screens being correct, so if we cannot, we cannot trust the software being used. It's even worse when the casino immediately tries to wash their hands of any responsibilty for a software issue that causes the player to LOSE, yet will DAMN WELL correct things when a software issue is causing a player to WIN when their shouldn't.

What if the bug was that we could see the next card when we shouldn't because we had a "crowded cache", I bet the casino would not be saying "the fault is at your end, therefore the results stand".

 

[H1_Roller]

Yeah... I really think you went a little far there. And by 'a little' I mean 'completely', and by 'far' I of course mean 'over the top'.
The pit boss barely had time to look into it before you were threatening all sorts.

Not a great start.

 

[ShayDrew]

Agreed with all of the above - in actual fact if I was pitboss I probably would have refunded the bet as you requested then closed your account on the spot, caiuse we all love blackmailing name droppers over ONE hand of BJ!

Which is probably why I'm not....

 

[Jufo]

That does not look like a "live" casino at all. This seems to be a normal software based game that just has an animated dealer avatar, rather than the usual virtual table, or even one with cartoon dealer hands.

No, that is indeed a screenshot from a Live BJ table used with Evolution gaming platform. I have played Live BJ in that platform many times. The dealer probably wouldn't appreciate you calling her an "animated dealer avatar"

As for the issue itself, I don't know the exact policies with Evolution gaming Live BJ, but I agree that they are hasty to blame the issue to the player when there has truly been an error in their end. Within that same live software I once had a blackjack hand of A,2 vs. Ten and was I never given the option to hit, so I stood on A,2 vs. Ten. The next card was Seven (it was dealt to the player sitting on my left side) which would have given me a total of Soft 20 which would have pushed against dealer's 20. I complained, but they claimed that the disconnection was from my end which was not the case as I have a very solid T1 connection.

At Smartlive Live BJ the rules clearly say that the PHYSICAL cards determine the result and whenever there is a disrepancy between physical cards seen on the video footage and with the software that records the outcomes, the rules say that the player should play the hand according to the cards seen in the real video. In fact I have had to request a refund of £400 two times when there has been a Ten-value card on the table which was NOT recorded by the software and which in both cases made a losing player hand to be actually a winner. Smartlive casino verified the outcome from video footage and paid the winning hands to my account. BUT had I not paid close attention to the PHYSICAL cards in the video, I would be £800 poorer. So you really need to be careful when playing Live BJ online.

 

[vinylweatherman]

No, that is indeed a screenshot from a Live BJ table used with Evolution gaming platform. I have played Live BJ in that platform many times. The dealer probably wouldn't appreciate you calling her an "animated dealer avatar"

As for the issue itself, I don't know the exact policies with Evolution gaming Live BJ, but I agree that they are hasty to blame the issue to the player when there has truly been an error in their end. Within that same live software I once had a blackjack hand of A,2 vs. Ten and was I never given the option to hit, so I stood on A,2 vs. Ten. The next card was Seven (it was dealt to the player sitting on my left side) which would have given me a total of Soft 20 which would have pushed against dealer's 20. I complained, but they claimed that the disconnection was from my end which was not the case as I have a very solid T1 connection.

At Smartlive Live BJ the rules clearly say that the PHYSICAL cards determine the result and whenever there is a disrepancy between physical cards seen on the video footage and with the software that records the outcomes, the rules say that the player should play the hand according to the cards seen in the real video. In fact I have had to request a refund of £400 two times when there has been a Ten-value card on the table which was NOT recorded by the software and which in both cases made a losing player hand to be actually a winner. Smartlive casino verified the outcome from video footage and paid the winning hands to my account. BUT had I not paid close attention to the PHYSICAL cards in the video, I would be £800 poorer. So you really need to be careful when playing Live BJ online.

I didn't see a video in that screenshot, but a "cartoon" looking dealer and a software generated table.

I would expect a live casino to present the VIDEO to the player as the main feature, rather than being something the player is not drawn to look at.

If the SOFTWARE governs the rules based on what it THINKS the cards are, rather than the player being allowed to play the cards as seen on the video, it is a very poor implementation.

YOU saw A,2 on the video, yet the software overrode this, and would not let you play the hand you saw, but forced you to play the hand the software had wrongly recorded. This is probably down to doing it "on the cheap", and a simple fix would be to have someone present in the studio who would double check what hand the software had recorded, and correct any errors manually BEFORE the values were sent to players' client applications.

If an error DOES slip through, the casino should take responsibilty for their own shortcomings, and those of the studio they use, and ensure the player is paid correctly, despite their being an error.

The whole point of live dealers is that it is supposed to take software out of the process of determining the results, yet this seems even WORSE than relying on an RNG to deal cards fairly.

 

[Jufo]

I didn't see a video in that screenshot, but a "cartoon" looking dealer and a software generated table.

In that screenshot there is game history view in the front, which are the outcomes recorded by the live BJ software. And the background is the Live footage of the BJ table. It's a real live footage even though it might look "cartoonish" to you. The history view is not there to block the view unless you manually open it after the hand to verify the outcome.

The OPs history view (screenhot) shows the initial hands to be T,T and 7,3. Not two hands with total of Ten. So the OP should also provide a screenshot of the initial situation where both hands were scored as Ten, and not 20 and Ten.

YOU saw A,2 on the video, yet the software overrode this, and would not let you play the hand you saw, but forced you to play the hand the software had wrongly recorded. This is probably down to doing it "on the cheap", and a simple fix would be to have someone present in the studio who would double check what hand the software had recorded, and correct any errors manually BEFORE the values were sent to players' client applications.

No, in my A,2 situation the hands were recorded perfectly correctly, I was just not given the option to hit so by definition dealer automatically stood my hand.

The whole point of live dealers is that it is supposed to take software out of the process of determining the results, yet this seems even WORSE than relying on an RNG to deal cards fairly.

Yes, player is in a weak position if there has been a misdeal/disrepancy and the Live software provider is not willing to rectify it but automatically blames the player.

 

[fourwood]

The worst thing is if there is a obvious error, you say in the chat, they respond.... but carry on dealing! compleate madness, ring the bell to say somthings not right, then they just carry on, if they used the common sense approach and stopped dealing before carrying on they would not have so many complaints.

 

[cerdikola]

I play these Evolution Gaming live dealer games at 888.com, and the only way to play is NEVER TRUST THE SOFTWARE COUNT.

80% of times the cards shown and the count don't match. For example; one day I got 16 in the video feed and it said 26 in the software count; then I hit and busted with 36 xDD

The only way to play at Evolution is to watch the video. For me it's funny because I play 5$ hands, but I don't think it's funny for someone who bets 9000GBP on two hands :/

 

[DiamondGeezer]

Never really understood why people play Live Dealer games for high stakes. By that I mean although a live game is exiting and more dramatic the pitfulls are numerous.

The biggest problem is if there is a disconnection then you auto stood even if you are dealt six or something. I had this problem at a big casino when the disconnection was definitely their end. I was stood on six and lost the hand. Ofcourse they wouldn't refund.

Surely in this instance the rule should be the dealer plays out the hand according to the Woo chart rules. It is a farce they allow players to stand on six.

Really it is the same in this case. They should have a check to prevent accidental bust like you get with many softwares. In real life the dealer would say 'sir you have 20 do you really want to hit?'

Not having a go at Expekt in particular but it is a farce these live games allow players to hit on 20. There should be an auto stand option. All the live games are the same AFAIK and all as bad as each other.

The standards on these live games are really poor IMO and really need looking at.

 

[fourwood]

No, in my A,2 situation the hands were recorded perfectly correctly, I was just not given the option to hit so by definition dealer automatically stood my hand.

So this happens to other people, problem must be evolution deny problems then the message just gets passed on through the casino at which you play.

 

[Repro]

Is it just me or does anybody else think it's crazy to bet 10K in one BJ-hand at an ONLINE casino ?

For bets above $/€10 a hand/spin/deal i get into my car and head off to the local casino where i can see for certain what happens... At least i'm sure i get paid when i win at these amounts...

 

[fourwood]

My local casino will only allow upto £1000 on blackjack, for big players who might just want a quick fix or not be seen to be gambling online seems a good idea, some people don't live near a casino.

From what i've seen of the highstaking players that they are there to gamble, not playing basic stratgy so it can't be they are card sharks just finding somwhere to play or they are counting?

I'd thought they look after a highroller and do everything they can to try and resolve the problem.

 

[Nifty29]

Is it just me or does anybody else think it's crazy to bet 10K in one BJ-hand at an ONLINE casino ?

For bets above $/€10 a hand/spin/deal i get into my car and head off to the local casino where i can see for certain what happens... At least i'm sure i get paid when i win at these amounts...

Absolutely 100%.

 

[maxd]

...
william: if this is not resolved i will be talking to casino meister
...
william: so, i guess i have no choice but to request assistance from casino meister and inform people on the
william: forums
...
william: just realise that i will make a Big issue of this
william: conversely if you do the right thing i will let people know about it
...
william: so i have just logged into my casino meister account and am about to proceed, unless you be fair
...
william: im just filling in a complaint form and am preparing a forum post...

@willpkr: I strongly recommend that you re-read our Forum Rules. As I see it you are in violation of those rules on at least two counts:

...
1.11 - Please do not exploit this board to promote your own personal agenda. If the moderators (and members) feel that you are spamming the board with links or ad copy to your website, harassing members with agenda laden posts, or consistently ragging on a casino that did you wrong, etc., your account may be suspended.
...
1.17 - Exploiting Your Membership Do not threaten casino operations with blackmail. Mentioning that you are a member is fine, but don't try to instill fear in a casino operation by threatening to post bad reviews or roguing them. Leave the roguing to Casinomeister - it's tricky business and not for amateurs. ...

I believe it is clear from your chat transcript that you deliberately used your Casinomeister membership to threaten and coerce the casino into doing what you wanted them to do. As regrettable as your problem with the casino may be this kind of abuse of your membership privileges is unacceptable. Because your thread here was solely intended as blackmaill I have retitled it from "Expekt.com - cheat me out of $10k ..." to "willpkr VS Expekt.com".

Furthermore I will not be proceeding with the Pitch-A-Bitch you filed regarding this case. I see you have been a member at Casinomeister for almost two years now and that will have provided you with more than enough opportunity to read the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ, especially the part concerning forum posts:

Q: I have already, or would like to, post about my complaint on the message boards. Is that a good idea?

A: No, it is not a good idea. A PAB is a private negotiation process and it works because it gives the casino people the best possible opportunity to resolve your issue calmly and fairly in talks with professional industry people without the burden of external pressures or influence.

A message posted on the boards is quite the opposite: it creates a very public public-relations issue that the casino people generally feel forced to contain, or ignore, as best they can.

Because of the pressures involved a forum post on a given issue will usually derail any PABs that are in progress on that issue, and this is why we advise that forum posts be withheld until the PAB process has had a chance to run it's course.

We reserve the right to discard any PAB that where that same issue has been posted to the boards. This relates to threads started by, or contributions to other threads by, the person who filed the PAB. This applies equally to posts made before or after the PAB was filed.

In other words in the case where the material was posted before the PAB was filed we will determine whether those posts would damage or thwart the PAB process before we decide if we will proceed with the PAB. In the case where the material was posted after the PAB was filed there is a very high probability that we will suspend or discard the PAB at that point.

Once we indicate that we are finished with a PAB the person who filed it is free to post about the issue as they see fit (all the usual Casinomeister Forum Rules are applicable).

As I say, your problems with the casino are unfortunate but that's no excuse for your willful misuse and abuse of the services we offer. Please (re)read the Forum Rules and the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ and, in the future, proceed accordingly.

 

[The Dude]

A little tact can go a long ways. When you are having a serious problem with a casino, the best approach is via email - not chat. Chat requires prompt responses from both sides and no one has a proper chance to fully apply reason and analysis to a given situation. Chats are loaded with stressed out emotional responses and sometimes people say what they don't really mean to say. I've seen chat session that would make your eyebrows fall off.

Email your complaint, give the casino a chance to respond and take it from there. Arguing via chat is the equivalent of banging your fists on the table and stomping your feet like a child.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Is it just me or does anybody else think it's crazy to bet 10K in one BJ-hand at an ONLINE casino ?

For bets above $/€10 a hand/spin/deal i get into my car and head off to the local casino where i can see for certain what happens... At least i'm sure i get paid when i win at these amounts...

It's crazy. There are only one or two online casinos that can be trusted to play "fair" when problems ocurr with this level of betting. If the live casino software is so unreliable that it gets it wrong "80% of the time" when compared with the live video - I would not trust it with $1 a hand, let alone $10K.

As for the casino, they have software running that continually produces these kinds of errors, yet it is STILL LIVE!!!!! It should have been PULLED, and worked on so that it presented a proper and fair gaming environment.
The fact that it allows players to stand on 6, or hit on a 20, because of one of it's many foibles is also apalling, and shows little regard to protecting the player from forseeable incidents. ONLINE games DO usually have some kind of protocol for dealing with disconnects and other errors. Most freeze the game to be completed when service is restored, and a few play out the hand using "best strategy" for the player, and then present the end result of this next time the player connects. Freezing the game cannot be done with a live dealer, BUT there is no reason why a set protocol based on "best strategy" could not be used. The fact that the dealer does not behave like a true live dealer, by saying "sir, are you sure you want to hit that 20" is because these studios are run on a shoestring budget, and there is no facilty there to do anything like this. The software would not ask the question either, because as far as it is concerned, it is NOT a 20 being hit, but something else.

I don't play the live dealer games, errors like this keep on cropping up, and the casino usually washes it's hands of the problem, and resolves it in their favour every time. Player loses because of bug - casino keeps the bet. Player WINS through bug - casino VOIDS the bet.

 

[cerdikola]

The biggest problem is if there is a disconnection then you auto stood even if you are dealt six or something. I had this problem at a big casino when the disconnection was definitely their end. I was stood on six and lost the hand. Ofcourse they wouldn't refund.

Surely in this instance the rule should be the dealer plays out the hand according to the Woo chart rules. It is a farce they allow players to stand on six.

Really it is the same in this case. They should have a check to prevent accidental bust like you get with many softwares. In real life the dealer would say 'sir you have 20 do you really want to hit?'

Playtech Live Dealer games ask you to confirm hitting 17 and up. And if you lose connection or get extreme lag, your hand is saved and you're offered to play it in video blackjack the next time you login.