William Hill - What customer service!

[ginger]

I'm on the 'compulsive gambler with remorse' side of this conversation but I do have one question. In the third email from the casino what does this mean?
-------
Quote: In your previous correspondence you stated that there was a discrepancy in the account statement. If you send me proof of this I will arrange for the 60 to be reimbursed.
-------
Where's the other email from your partner and what's the discrepancy of 60? I thought it was for 45,000

 

[bandana]

Ginger...... Before the account was closed and when I first told my partner what had happened,my partner tried to download the account statements from WH site.There for some reason were only three dates showing.On one of the dates there was a clear mistake in their favour of 40 pounds.Robert Sadler asked for this and said if there was a mistake they would reimburse.A copy of that statement with the mistake was sent to him and they got out of it,more or less by saying it was a typo error.I was not that interested in the 40 pounds I just wanted them to know and admit that they can and do make mistakes.Hope that answers your question

 

[jpm]

Bandana, have you talked with anyone at Gamcare yet?

 

[bandana]

Hi JPM,
No, I have not.He has my mails and does not responde to them.Here is the last read receipt.

Your message

To: michael@gamcare.org.uk
Subject: Fw: Spearmaster/ T** Lo*
Sent: 03/10/2003 12:37

was read on 06/10/2003 08:46.

 

[bandana]

I called my telephone company and asked for itemised billing for the time I was playing with WH.I have been going through this today and comparing it with the game logs they sent to me.The game logs show I was online when I was not.What should I do now,any suggestions?

 

[Casinomeister]

Hi Bandana,

Are you implying that someone else was playing and not you? Could it be that their game servers are in a different time zone?

Has Michael still not responded to your emails?

 

[spearmaster]

What is the point of getting logs?

And why can't you just pick up the phone and call?

 

[bandana]

CM.... The logs are in a different time zone I think. It does not tell you what time zone.I am in GMT if the logs were in GMT then I would not have been playing for over half the time.I am assuming that they are in EST which makes sense of the times that I was playing.If you compare the logs to the phone records based on this then it has me playing eg: 12.52pm but I actually got off the phone at 12.48pm.
No, Michael has not responded.
Spear... What do you mean, what is the point of getting logs? There is a point to everything that I am doing,would you not look at everything if this had happened to you? And what do you mean about picking up the phone? Pick up the phone to who- WH? If thats what you mean there is no point,CS is totally useless!

 

[spearmaster]

I repeatedly asked you to call Gamcare instead of waiting for an email response. Why in the world would I ask you to call WH?

 

[bandana]

Spear... Please respect the fact that I don't always find it very easy to pick the phone up.I don't see what difference it makes anyway,Michael has my emails and is not responding.You were not clear in your posting,I did not know what you meant and as you made the reference after asking why I was bothering with logs I thought you may of meant WH.

 

[bandana]

Also, does anyone know what I should do with what I have found out (phone records/logs) Should I go to the police? I am not on the phone when I was supposedley in the games at the casino!What could cause that?I have found out that the time zone for the logs is EST, 5 hours behind GMT and with that in mind it is wrong, only by minutes not hours,but nevertheless WRONG!

 

[spearmaster]

Between your desperation to recover your funds and picking the phone up, I'd have to say you seem more afraid of picking up the phone than the fact that you may never recover your funds.

Forgive me for sounding harsh - but since you don't seem to want to respond to reasonable advice I don't think there is much else anyone here can do to help.

The logs are useless. You know that you played and that you lost. You never claimed that anyone else broke into your account and used up your funds.

Also, wrong by minutes - you DO realize that NOT all clocks are set by the atomic clock servers... a 4 minute difference most certainly is not going to be cause for concern to anyone.

 

[bandana]

Spear..Please do not speak to me like that,it is not necessary.I did what you advised and contacted Michael.Gamcare can't recover my funds,can they?I never stated that anyone broke into my account and stole my funds,but I have stated that I am sure I did not spend anywhere near what went from my account.I have also stated that on the statements from WH there are discrepancies.What if there was some sort of bug,what if someone was in my account? All I am saying is WH won't talk to me, or answer my questions about the disprepancies,as nobody there is doing their homework checking anything,I have to do it. The logs are also in $'s. Someone said this is probally just a typo error. So, we have typo error's, wrong times, money errors in the statements, a limit which they allowed me to break and no procedures put in place to stop compulsive gambling,even though they stated there were.This is not straight forward, there are many issues,oh and lets not forget,logs that are incomplete! Money transactions have taken place,just like they do in a bank.If you got a bank statement that was all wrong,would you just except it or would you turn it upside down and rip it apart? Typo errors and wrong times are just not good enough when you are dealing with thousands of pounds. If there servers are not set by the atomic clock,what is the point in putting times on transactions and game play.How are the transactions timed? I am using the transaction sheets with the phone records.The game log times do not match the transaction sheets at all.As for me not wanting to respond to resonable advice,therefore no one here being able to help.I have taken the advice,but am pretty concerned about getting some/all of my money back,can't you understand that?I am asking direct questions for advice with what I have found and all you can do is repeat yourself about Gamcare.I CAN HEAR YOU, SPEAR!

 

[spearmaster]

Gamcare, first of all, can help make sure it doesn't happen again.

Second of all, they MAY - I repeat, MAY - be able to help recover something. Don't think that I am just sending you there to "dry out" - if that was all that was involved I wouldn't have bothered after the first time.

When you get sick, you don't treat yourself. When you have a problem with others, you don't try to do everything yourself.

Get people who KNOW what they are doing to help you. The more you start chasing loose ends without a result, the more frustrated you are going to get.

Telephone logs will not help your case. If you have the game logs, you should also have the total "cost" to you. If that total matches up, there won't be much you can do - you will have a very difficult time proving fraud.

If you are not willing to talk to Gamcare - by phone - and find out what they can do for you, then I'm afraid that's about all I can do. I do know what I am talking about, and you have been given pretty sound advice - but you continue to go down dead-end streets as if you thought you dropped your wallet somewhere.

 

[jpm]

The best advice you've been given is to get help for this compulsive gambling problem, but you are so resistant do doing that for some reason. Why can you call WH and talk to their customer support people and you can call the telephone company to ask for these records, but can't call Gamcare? You seem to only want help in getting your money back, not with the bigger problem of the compulsive gambling. Getting the money back only gives you a second chance to lose it without getting help for the problem gambling.

Now you're nitpicking over phone records and timestamps that are off by 4 minutes, which is really nothing considering the phone company has its own clock that it goes by, and the casino servers have their own clock that they go by. A 4 minute difference is virtually no difference. And you already stated that you did play and lose the money, but now you're trying to show that someone else must have been playing on your account. This is really grasping at straws.

I'm sure that the casino logged your IP address each time you connected to them, and could match that up with your ISP's logs for each time you connected to them and were assigned an IP address. That would show better than the phone records whether it was you playing or not if you're really concerned about proving it.

 

[bandana]

Spear...Thank you,I do think that Gamcare have been in touch with WH because of all the info now printed on the re-designed site,so as far as it happening again,hopefully it won't.Having said that,until WH impose sensible limits it probally will.I will phone them!
JPM...The big problem is my money.You do not know me and therefore cannot state that I am a compulsive gambler.Yes, I had a few weeks of being very compulsive with gambling,but this is not something that I have been doing in my life.Yes, I have gambled in the past,but having read GA'S list of "what makes a compulsive gambler" which consists of 20 questions or more, I only answered yes to 4 of them.I am not thinking of my next bet,or where the money will come from.I had a compulsive episode,period!
As for everyone having different clocks,if thats the case,why do the police rely on phone records? I am not trying to say that someone else was playing my account, I am just stateing that there are many things that do not add up.If everyone has their own clocks,what is the point in timing anything?The isp logs that you talk about-how would I go about obtaining those?The example I gave to CM was 4 minutes,but some of them ae much longer.The logs show the games and also the session.According to the times on the session, at times there is a half hour discrepancie.Surley the statement times,game log times and session times should add up?They don't at all.Are you trying to say that the transaction times are on one clock,the game logs are on another,and the session on yet another? I did not phone the phone company or WH CS a friend did it for me.

 

[glodge]

bandana,

I was one of the first posters to support you, hence I've been following this entire thread. However from where I'm standing; sorry, but this is starting to turn into straw clutching & is sounding to much like a compulsive gambling problem.

Now your stating that the phone records are out of wack & that you doubt that you spent all that money.

IMHO your just a compulsive gambler who has not yet accepted the fact.

Just becuase you don't crave gambling every day, does'nt mean you don't have a problem. You could be a binge gambler. Maybe reading over those questions again & looking at all possibilites you may find a few more YES answers.

I don't think addressing people in the way you do, when they tell you something you don't want to hear is very nice either, all of us are trying to help you. However you keep changing feet.

Anyway I'm not bothering anymore, I think your a compulsive gambler and that's that.

(Message edited by glodge on October 10, 2003)

 

[jpm]

Look at those 20 questions from GA (

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

) just to see how many you could answer yes to.

I think just from the information you've provided in this thread, you'd have to answer an emphatic YES to #s 2,4,7,9,13 & 20 (that's 6 so far), you'd probably have to answer yes also for #'s 6 & 14 (total of at least 8). Most of these yes answers come from your very first post btw. And I'd bet there's probably 1 or 2 more in that list that could be yes as well, but only you or your partner would know that for sure. I have to agree with glodge on this one, you don't want to accept that you have a gambling problem.

Perhaps it is the first time you ever had such a compulsive episode, but that does not mean it will be the last or only one, given the right set of circumstances. That is why it is so important that you call Gamcare. And if you can't call them yourself, then have your partner call for you as she did to WH & the telephone company.

 

[bandana]

Spear...I have phoned Michael today and he was not there,spoke to another guy called Andrew.Explained that I had been e mailing Michael and Andrew said he would tell him that I had called and he should get back to me on Monday.

 

[jpm]

Good job Bandana!

 

[bandana]

Hi all,
After my call to Michael at Gamcare last Friday,I e mailed him again today and this was his reply:
************************************************
Dominique



I must apologise for the delay to responding to your email. I have been away from the office last week and got your message that you rang today. I have been in touch with William Hill regarding your email and have had some initial contact with them regarding arranging a meeting to look at their current operations in terms of social responsibility although I am still waiting to hear back from them.



Without hearing back from them I am unable to give any feed back, although hopefully they will be in touch with you shortly. GamCare doesnt actually get directly involved in disputes, although we are happy to support any individual who are concerned about their gambling, through the GamCare helpline 0845 6000 133.



When I hear back from William Hill I can update you, or hopefully they will get back to you.


Sorry again for the delay, and Im sorry I currently cant be more helpful.



Regards



Michael Smeaton

I think WH probaly did the re-design after Michael first contacted them as they offer all this advice about responsible gaming.They think that's enough.There do not appear to be ANY limits anymore and they took out their code of conduct page where they stated they were commited to detecting and stoping compulsive gambling through setting limits and anylising gambling paterns.

I have been intouch with another solicitor who deals with IT and Internet in the main.They do alot of work for corporate companies but are also happy to work for individuals.They are called Manches and are based not too far away from me in Oxford.It's expensive but I am trying to find a way of borrowing the money.I outlined what had happened with me and WH and they said they would be happy to act for me, so I just have to sort the money out.If I can't borrow it then I will sell things to get the money.

(Message edited by casinomeister on October 14, 2003)

 

[spearmaster]

Can you not get the solicitor to act based on percentage of amount recovered? That way you don't have to raise any money - if you win, you get a significant amount of your finds back and the solicitor gets a cut.

This is a common practice in the US but no idea if it will work in the UK.

Meanwhile - let's see if WH ever responds to Michael Smeaton. Gamcare has enough influence to make things awkward for WH if they do not explain why the issue occurred in the first place. Too bad they can't get involved - it's not even a dispute, you might want to point out that WH should in fact be responsible for the accuracy of their posted terms and conditions EVEN IF the updated data was supposedly available in the software - that is simply no excuse and not at all what you would expect from a "respected and licensed" bookmaker.

 

[bandana]

Hi Spear.... I was just about to mail Michael back when you posted.I will point out what you have just said - Thanks! With regard to Manches the solicitors, it can work like that in the UK sometimes,but I don't think in this instance that it would,mainly because they are huge and are not needing the work as they have so many corporate clients.The english are very short sighted at times! I can try putting that to them though.

 

[bandana]

I have just replyed to Michael at Gamcare with the following:
************************************************
Hi,

Thank you for your response Michael. I doubt they will contact me, I have written to the CEO Mr. David Harding 3 times and got nothing. I hope I am wrong,but I think they will not contact you either. Although this is a dispute in some ways,which you say you can't get involved in(understandable) in another way it's not. When I played,they were advertising a spending limit of 1,000 a week,which turned out to be wrong.They also were advertising on their code of conduct page the following :

7. Controlling Compulsive Gambling
William Hill Casino is committed to detecting and reducing compulsive gambling. Our procedures include monthly deposit limits and analysis of gambling patterns.

And the following :

4. Truth In Advertising
William Hill Casino shall be truthful in all advertising and promotional efforts and shall publish only accurate information about its operations. Gaming and wagering rules and registration procedures are made available to the public online.

Neither of which were true or upheld, hence 45,000 pounds of my money going to them In 3 and a half weeks. They had no social responsibility and yet where stating they did.

They recently have totally re-designed their website. The code of conduct page has gone and there appears to be no limits at all. They also have some advice about responsible gaming and a link to your website,which was not there before.This I imagine may be as a result of your e mail to them. The fact that there seems to be no limits at all,means nothing, because once they had changed the info that I read i.e.: 1,000 per week, it went to 10,000 per day or 50,000 per week. This made a mockery of statement 7 above about setting monthly limits to help reduce or stop compulsive gambling. 200,000 pounds per month!!!

Maybe you were not aware of this information before or maybe you were, whatever, thank you for your response to me I just wonder if this is usual practise and what one should expect from a respected and licenced bookmaker?

Kind Regards

Dominique Shipstone

WH do not seem to reply to anyone do they? Why is that?

 

[linda7]

Dominique:
I dont know how much money Manches is asking for, however, I am always leary when people want cash upfront for helping you to recover money.
Ask them to work on a percentage of what they collect for you. I would hate it if you had to borrow money and these people did nothing to help you.

(((hugs)))) Linda