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William Hill - nullified complaint

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Bonus Issues' started by Tysken, May 6, 2007.

    May 6, 2007
  1. Tysken

    Tysken Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Unemployed
    Location:
    Sweden
    So I was playing the William Hill sign up bonus, which is a 100% 80 bonus with 25x wagering requirements. I finished the wagering and cashed out with the intent of playing again next month (they have a monthly 40 euro bonus as well).

    A couple of days went by and I started wondering when my money would reach neteller, so I tried to login on my will hill account to see if the money had been sent back or something like that. The login failed with the error message "we could not confirm your details". I immediately sent an email wondering if they had some type of technical errors.

    The answer:

    "We carry out regular security checks on accounts and your account has been suspended by our Risk Management team pending a review of your account activity."

    They also requested that I faxed in my ID and a utility bill.

    I sent them the documents and asked if my account would be unlocked now.

    Their 2nd answer:

    "We are writing to inform you that your account has been permanently closed by our security department because abuse of the bonus scheme involving your account has been detected. Your initial deposit of 80 has been sent back to your Neteller account."

    What the hell? I asked them which terms I had broken and they replied:

    "Unfortunately our investigation into your activity in William Hill casino has revealed conclusive evidence that you have been abusing our bonus scheme. This is in effect a breech of the terms and conditions which you agreed to when you signed up with William Hill and therefore you account will not be re-opened.

    Revealing this information, and giving details of how it was obtained, would compromise the security of our operation."


    I asked again and now they quoted this rule in their T&C:

    "The Casino and/or its authorised agent reserve the right to review transaction records and logs, from time to time, for any reason whatsoever. If, upon such review, it appears that end users or any one or combination of them are participating in strategies which the Casino and/or its authorised agent in their sole discretion deem to be abusive, the Casino and/or its authorised agent reserve the right to revoke the entitlement of such end user(s) to the promotion".


    So basically, if a player wins money the casino can just say that he was using a strategy that they find abusive?

    I finished the wagering with blackjack (which is allowed in their T&C)...

    What do you think? Do they have the right to confiscate my winnings?
     
  2. May 6, 2007
  3. mikepipe

    mikepipe Dormant account

    Occupation:
    owner
    Location:
    still progressing
    Hello and welcome,
    a sad story.
    Yes, they are allowed to confiscte your winnings, if they think, you did something forbidden.
    They should (or: have to) give you your deposit back - which they did.

    I have never heard such things from William Hill, thought its a trustworthy place.
     
  4. May 6, 2007
  5. cheekymonkey

    cheekymonkey Ueber Meister

    Occupation:
    Loser
    Location:
    Back at my mums
    This has ASTOUNDED me!!!!

    I cannot believe William Hill would react in this way - it is virtually unheard of.

    Wow - either they have a new team of account handlers who are exceptionally eager to impress or they really must think you are up to something?

    Crazy! :eek2:
     
  6. May 7, 2007
  7. dealer wins

    dealer wins Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Finncial Controler
    Location:
    London the sh$thole
    If they intend to void your casino play then they should provide you with THEIR EVIDENCE of your abuse/fraud/multiple accounts etc.

    To just void the play and return your deposit without giving reasons is theft IMO, and makes William Hill no better than the scummy casinos that lie in Bryan's rogue gallery.
     
  8. May 7, 2007
  9. Tysken

    Tysken Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Unemployed
    Location:
    Sweden
    Yepp, I agree. A simple reason would have kept my from posting here (unless it was a ridiculous one). I assume they mean that I played blackjack with pretty small bets to meet the wagering... but then the T&C should say that blackjack isn't allowed, like it does with baccarat and roulette.

    It's not even alot of money (120 to be exact), they have do understand that they will loose more because of bad publicity?
     
  10. May 7, 2007
  11. mikepipe

    mikepipe Dormant account

    Occupation:
    owner
    Location:
    still progressing
    I agree, that (BJ) cannot be the reason.
    Either ist a computer mistake or they have something serious, which should be told to you.
     
  12. May 7, 2007
  13. sdaddy

    sdaddy Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Arizona
    I would make sure that William Hill is aware of this thread. Also explain to them that only citing "bonus abuse" (and not any specific violation of the T&C) as the reason for voiding winnings is not regarded as acceptable practice by reputable casinos.
     
  14. May 7, 2007
  15. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Bonus

    Since they specifically mention "bonus abuse" and not any kind of fraud, I believe they have based it on the fact you signed up, did the welcome bonus with Blackjack and then withdrew winnings. No doubt they felt you would try the same with the monthly bonuses. It is not so much the Blackjack, it is the fact you ONLY played Blackjack rather than "enjoying a cross section of games" with the bonus.

    This is a clear breach of Casinomeister rules, which require casinos to pay all winnings due unless it is FRAUD, not "bonus abuse", and then lock the account if they do not believe the player will return with profitable play later.
    Oddly enough Will Hill is NOT on the accredited list, I am pretty sure they were before. They may have a rep here, worth a look. You could also fill in a PAB (Pitch a bitch) form.
    This is not what would be expected from one of the UK Bookmakers.
    Try Littlewoods instead, they have a similar monthly reward (paid after playing Blackjack:D ). Intercasino offer two different bonuses, one specifically intended for players who want to clear it with Blackjack. Both of these are the same software as Will Hill.

    Being banned at Will Hill is not an Ecash Direct issue, as Will Hill do their own processing. The other Cryptos use Ecash Direct, and they will store any black mark for ALL Crypto casinos that use them.
     
  16. May 7, 2007
  17. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    They've never been listed here. PAB and I should be getting to this by the end of the week.

    The reason why casinos won't give you specific reasons why they casino an account a fraudulent one is that they don't want you to know how you got caught. Not saying that this is a fraudulent account; I'm just bringing this up as an FYI.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2007
  18. May 7, 2007
  19. dealer wins

    dealer wins Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Finncial Controler
    Location:
    London the sh$thole
    Thats an interesting issue really. In UK law all evidence has to be brought before a jury before someone is found guilty of an offence.

    Online though is it OK for a casino to say "We have got proof that you are a cheat/fraudster, but we cant disclose this information as it may encourage or help others to avoid detection"

    Surely this would be open to abuse by casinos who just dont want to pay a winning player.

    And I would have thought that they could provide the results of their fraud investigation without going into technical detail of how they obtained them.

    Just voiding someones winnings, even if the casino is right, is not the right way to do business. IMO it makes the casino as bad as the fraudulent players out there. It doesnt cast them in a good light, can ruin their reputation, and when it is posted around the internet it can cost them lots of potential custom.
     
  20. May 7, 2007
  21. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    But they will disclose this to third parties. Most third parties will sign a non-disclosure form or have some sort of contract written out that covers fraud detection.

    This information is disclosed to me periodically by casino operators whenever the situation calls for it. I know how fraudsters are caught by different vendors, but I'll never kiss and tell. :D

    Unless it's public information of course.
     
    1 person likes this.
  22. May 8, 2007
  23. henryVIII

    henryVIII Dormant account

    Occupation:
    teacher
    Location:
    UK

    Third parties??? Where in the terms does it state that an unnamed "third party" is deemed the ultimate arbitrator??

    Imagine your bank doing this ... erm, weve taken some money ... if you dont like it then ask joebloggs.com to arbitrate ... or whatever .. but, obviously, we have to protect our secrets from you.

    If it is not in the terms it is not valid. Show the man how he broke the terms or pay him.

    If major financial instituions can avoid being so cloak and dagger with "hidden internet security" necessities then why cant a bog standard online casino do the same?

    Surely its not THAT complex???
     
  24. May 8, 2007
  25. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Surely this is largely irrelevant, the player in question has had winnings confiscated by being deemed to have "abused" the sign up bonus. Subsequent postings by the player make it pretty clear what he did wrong, apart from being a Swede, he took the bonus, played only Blackjack at a low bet size, and withdrew winnings pretty much after finishing WR

    This is pretty much what Fortune Lounge did to a number of players. Those that had merely "abused" the bonus, but committed no fraud, got paid in the end after having either eCogra or Bryan intervene. There are a small number of cases still outstanding (see Bryan's latest post on the thread).

    Bryan is a "third party" that the casino can disclose their methods to.
    It is not compulsory for this to happen, both the casino and the player have to agree to arbitration, and any member of this forum should have no problem agreeing to Bryan looking into all the evidence.

    This whole issue DOES lead to the whole industry getting a bad image in many quarters. It is bad enough that it involves gambling, but added to this is the impression that casinos can simply decide not to pay and cry "fraud" without ever having to prove it. It also looks bad that the cry of "fraud" only comes when a player wins, and rogue casinos deliberately misuse fraud as an excuse not to pay a winning player.

    The big players in fraud are not helped much if they are told how they got caught, they either know anyway, or have insiders they can bribe for the info.
    Other institutions are much more open about fraud, and how it is detected, just watch a few episodes of "Panorama", "Dispatches" and "Tonight" to learn all there is to know about getting a fake ID for under 300 Euros, rigging Chip & Pin, pulling off "Card not present" fraud on the internet. What they leave out can easily be found out or bought, since they DO show pretty much how to "get in touch" with the agents behind it. Not telling individuals how they got caught just slows fraud down, someone in the criminal world will know.

    If criminals found a way to rip off online casinos beyond taking the SUB multiple times, casinos would suffer badly (maybe they are already, they are not going to be in a hurry to admit it!). The EV of the average SUB, while there, is unlikely to interest the big players in the criminal West, although sweatshop type operations in the likes of China would make it worth the yield.
    These DO exist for some games, such as World of Warcraft, with ready made characters changing hands for hundreds of dollars a time.
     
  26. May 10, 2007
  27. yyega

    yyega Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Sweden
    My winnings has also been confiscated by WH when I tried to withdraw. (233.5) :mad:
    I only got my deposit of 70 back.

    They said it was because I had recieved the monthly bonus on two accounts, and that was true -
    but I asked their support before creating my 2nd account how to change my currency to get a bigger bonus (25 instead of 40Euros) and they told me to create a new account with pounds.

    I have emailed them several times about this but they just copy and past from the TC every time.:sniper: I dont even think they read my mails.

    Something is not right there...
     
  28. May 11, 2007
  29. happygobrokey

    happygobrokey Dormant account

    Occupation:
    student of life
    Location:
    canada
    because you got the sign up bonus on a second account, we could just create new accounts every day if they let us do this. and obviously also if you kept playing and getting bonus on the old account. probably you should have closed the old account and contacted them about your new account, because when you make a first deposit the bonus is given by default, but in this case it means you claim multiple signups, end of. and since you mention it, how much more is 25 GBP compared to 40 EUR? and with 80 chips vs 50 you stand a better chance of not going broke, surely worth more than the slight edge (don't forget currency fees) gained using pounds. that said, i signed up there in pounds as well, and i do okay. but having multiple accounts is not such a great idea imo, even when some places like crypto allow such thing.
     
  30. May 11, 2007
  31. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    The problem in the last case is just stupid advice from CS. CS effectively instructed the player to break T & C and create a second account.

    The correct advice in this case would have been to tell the player that they are not expected to be using the pound in the first place since they are not UK resident, and that they must make do with their existing account in the Euro.
    Despite the fault being the casino's, through their CS, they expect to player to suffer the consequences. This is poor, but unfortuately all too common in the business world. I have just suffered the same ineptitude at the hands of Virgin Media (Virgin also run an online casino), and it is ME that has to lose a day, not even an offer of a free credit for the inconvenience.
    Under the rules for accreditation, a casino can deny a player a bonus, but they must pay winnings on one already granted and terms properly met before such a bonus ban is made.
     
  32. May 11, 2007
  33. yyega

    yyega Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Sweden
    happygobrokey: They closed my old account when they created my new one. Besides 25 is 5 more each month and thats a lot of money in one year:)

    The chance of busting is not bigger with 50 chips instead of 80. What matters is the value of your bet, so when playing in I bet 4 chips instead of 6 chips when playing in Euros.

    Anyway, does anyone think I have a chance to get my money back? Should I pitch a bitch?
     
  34. May 11, 2007
  35. mikepipe

    mikepipe Dormant account

    Occupation:
    owner
    Location:
    still progressing
    You will not get the winnings, i think. But you should try to find an arrangement with them. Your account in GBP should be closed, and maybe they give you a generous bonus ojn the Euro account, because CS advice was definetely wrong.
     
  36. May 11, 2007
  37. Swede

    Swede Hell is only a word PABnonaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    Auctioneer
    Location:
    Anaon
    25 is way less that EUR 40?! What am I missing here?
     
  38. May 11, 2007
  39. tristan727

    tristan727 Banned user - violation of <a href="http://www.ca

    Occupation:
    credit manager
    Location:
    London
    Crikey o'Reilly - would have thought someone would have stepped in from Willhill by now explaining how it's still safe to play with them etc. - can only assume now Tysken has been robbed of his winnings, earned from perfectly legit gameplay.

    The only way I wouldn't consider it to be robbery - is if they took a global view of this across all accounts...ie mine - I have lost there for the last 4 months running, playing Blackjack - can I therefore have my deposits returned, pretty please? Call me a bonus abuser Mr Hill if you like- just gimme my deposits....unless you're just selectively picking the pockets of members which ain't empty?
     

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