William Hill Jumping Onboard The R.T.P Nerfing Bandwagon

kou187

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I always thought i could trust the major sites to not nerf there games especially the big bookmakers until i recieved this email just now. But if william hill are going to do it then im guessing pretty much all the U.K casinos will be doing it shortly. Sad times! :(

I thought lets see what this update is all about then. To find they have nerfed loads if not all there pragmatic slots and more. :mad:
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93.99%!!! WTF!!!​
 

CasinoNinja

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Yup, they did the same email with the Netent slots as well earlier. Interestingly enough if you go on the games it's not been changed yet (at least on mobile). I bet Play and Go will be to follow. Red Tiger is already on the lower end also.

They won't see much money from me anymore, even less so when they exclude you from their promotions for apparently no reasons.
 

kou187

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Yup, they did the same email with the Netent slots as well earlier. Interestingly enough if you go on the games it's not been changed yet (at least on mobile). I bet Play and Go will be to follow. Red Tiger is already on the lower end also.

They won't see much money from me anymore, even less so when they exclude you from their promotions for apparently no reasons.

Wow i didnt even realise they had nerved NetEnt slots, Thanks for the heads up! Im guessing like you said Play N Go will be next. :(
 

danofthewibble

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I don’t think there is any excuse for the big sites to be reducing RTP. If you’re advertising on telly at all hours, you can afford higher RTP.

I can see the justification for smaller operators - and I’d include the likes of Videoslots and L&L here as they’re big to us, but minnows compared to 888 et al - they don’t have the deep pockets, and lower RTP may be the difference between them being profitable long term and not.

But William Hill? One of the biggest operators in the world? The chiselling bastards.
 
Last edited:

colinsunderland

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I don’t think there is any excuse for the big sites to be reducing RTP. If you’re advertising on telly at all hours, you can afford higher RTP.

I can see the justification for smaller operators - and I’d include the likes of Videoslots and L&L here as they’re big to us, but minnows compared to 888 et al - they don’t have the deep pockets, and lower RTP may be the difference between them being profitable long term and not.

But William Hill? One of the biggest operators in the world? The chiselling bastards.
At least they have told the customers, unlike certain 'top rated' casinos like Videolots and LeoVegas
 

Slottery

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I don’t think there is any excuse for the big sites to be reducing RTP. If you’re advertising on telly at all hours, you can afford higher RTP.

I can see the justification for smaller operators - and I’d include the likes of Videoslots and L&L here as they’re big to us, but minnows compared to 888 et al - they don’t have the deep pockets, and lower RTP may be the difference between them being profitable long term and not.

But William Hill? One of the biggest operators in the world? The chiselling bastards.

I think these big publicly listed companies actually do have an excuse to maximize their profits for shareholders, otherwise, they could be breaking law if trying to do something else than loads profits as possible or in better scenario, if they try their best and can't make money for owners, just get kicked out and operational leadership is changed.

WH (like many casino operators) made quite good covid year now, from last March under £40 to current £270, would guess that most of owners are happy for that but share price have been flat last months which is not that great anymore so results need to improve to make the price increase or if operations can't deliver more value to the company, people start to sell these and price takes hit which is not in the interest of almost any company.

Smaller ones which are not listed can make whatever they feel and owners want, often the majority of owners is quite a small group who have the final word to decide what's gonna happen in the company and let's make some longer-term plans instead or let's start to be non profit casino organization who just pays our salaries etc... these are much harder to sell for huge amount of investors who don't understand anything about the industry and of course the only reason why they own shares from some companies is to make much profit as possible, which depending bit from the country but mostly publically listed and exchanged companies are obligated to do, try to maximize shareholders value and nothing else matters.

Picture tells quite a lot, after good growth since 2019, would you think that all institutional and other investors would be happy just to stop maximizing profits everywhere possible, have to be quite a well-made presentation where you can actually sell stupid owners idea about cutting short term profits to make bigger once for longer-term, often it's very hard to guarantee and be impressive enough to make people be patient with their investments. When looking this picture, you think WH owners are still happy many quarters with current development? Would guess that no.

1614103751073.png
 

bamberfishcake

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I always thought i could trust the major sites to not nerf there games especially the big bookmakers until i recieved this email just now. But if william hill are going to do it then im guessing pretty much all the U.K casinos will be doing it shortly. Sad times! :(

I thought lets see what this update is all about then. To find they have nerfed loads if not all there pragmatic slots and more. :mad:
View attachment 151108

View attachment 151106

View attachment 151107

93.99%!!! WTF!!!​

When you click the link does it give an explanation about dropping RTP?

If it just goes through to that list how is that informing customers?

Its completely misleading to say the least -

'Out with the Old,
In with the New!'

'We just wanted to let you know that some of the slots you've recently played have been updated.
Please click on the button below to find out more.'

'Weve also tidied up and made space for a number of fantastic new games'


Then when you click through you just get the list of games? Nothing mentioning RTP or what the change is?

Sorry but the average person is going to think 'oh, they've got a load of new games'.

That's not information being presented thats selling an idea. Look at the language and the way its been presented. Laughable if that's their attitude to customers.
 

Kroffe

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Not at the expense of an unsuspecting customer base.
Thats the part that i take the most issue with.
If everyone knew about rtp and what impact if has on your play, casinos would not be lowering rtp, because they would lose more players/money than they would gain.
The only reason lowering rtp works to increase profits is because the vast majority has no idea its even happening.
 

kou187

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When you click the link does it give an explanation about dropping RTP?

If it just goes through to that list how is that informing customers?

Its completely misleading to say the least -

'Out with the Old,
In with the New!'

'We just wanted to let you know that some of the slots you've recently played have been updated.
Please click on the button below to find out more.'

'Weve also tidied up and made space for a number of fantastic new games'


Then when you click through you just get the list of games? Nothing mentioning RTP or what the change is?

Sorry but the average person is going to think 'oh, they've got a load of new games'.

That's not information being presented thats selling an idea. Look at the language and the way its been presented. Laughable if that's their attitude to customers.

Exactly!

They make the email sound like they have done a good job and made things better. When in reality they just pulled our trousers down a little further for shafting. Disgusting behaviour from such a big brand. No normal player would even think the percentage the game gives back has been reduced. Slimey fuckers william hill.
 

bamberfishcake

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Thats the part that i take the most issue with.
If everyone knew about rtp and what impact if has on your play, casinos would not be lowering rtp, because they would lose more players/money than they would gain.
The only reason lowering rtp works to increase profits is because the vast majority has no idea its even happening.

Yes, the board probably dont even know about RTP.

I suspect its a decision taken at senior level and is barely discussed.

I do agree with a lot of what Slottery said and didnt mean to come across rude or abrupt. If it is discussed at board level i can see how it wouldnt take much for shareholders to jump at the chance. Their not there for the longevity. Not many anyway.

Would be interesting to see how Unibet fair whilst this is going on. They are bucking the trend along with 21Casino, Novibet and a few others i dare say yet to hit my radar.

If your gas changed tariff your notified. If your chocolate bar changes content its displayed on the pack. There is nothing else like it. Its a modern day con.

You cant polish a turd but you can roll it in glitter :)

Edit: Forgot to mention its a cheap and easy tactic for someone to make themselves look good in a company also - 'Look at me boss! That's my doing that profit increase'.
 

Mr_Slot5

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May 6, 2019
Location
Cheshire
I think these big publicly listed companies actually do have an excuse to maximize their profits for shareholders, otherwise, they could be breaking law if trying to do something else than loads profits as possible or in better scenario, if they try their best and can't make money for owners, just get kicked out and operational leadership is changed.

WH (like many casino operators) made quite good covid year now, from last March under £40 to current £270, would guess that most of owners are happy for that but share price have been flat last months which is not that great anymore so results need to improve to make the price increase or if operations can't deliver more value to the company, people start to sell these and price takes hit which is not in the interest of almost any company.

Smaller ones which are not listed can make whatever they feel and owners want, often the majority of owners is quite a small group who have the final word to decide what's gonna happen in the company and let's make some longer-term plans instead or let's start to be non profit casino organization who just pays our salaries etc... these are much harder to sell for huge amount of investors who don't understand anything about the industry and of course the only reason why they own shares from some companies is to make much profit as possible, which depending bit from the country but mostly publically listed and exchanged companies are obligated to do, try to maximize shareholders value and nothing else matters.

Picture tells quite a lot, after good growth since 2019, would you think that all institutional and other investors would be happy just to stop maximizing profits everywhere possible, have to be quite a well-made presentation where you can actually sell stupid owners idea about cutting short term profits to make bigger once for longer-term, often it's very hard to guarantee and be impressive enough to make people be patient with their investments. When looking this picture, you think WH owners are still happy many quarters with current development? Would guess that no.

View attachment 151122
Why should shareholders expect an immediate profit? Staking money in a company is a gamble, not an automatic right to a pathway to a get rich quick scheme. This is what’s wrong with capitalism today and why so many suffer at the expense of a few.

Too many investors think short term rather than long term sustainability. Slashing RTP will yield a short term boost but nothing more. If the company is rotting underneath, it has no future in terms of sustainability. Ripping off your customers, for example, is not sustainable.

Also, some profit for the long haul is better than no profit at all through going bust. So why is sustained profit ditched in favour of short term boom?

I’ve never owned a business but it even shocks me how badly some companies are run. Stick me as CEO and I’m pretty sure I could make a better fist of it than the CEOs of some companies...and I’m being serious.
 

snorky510238

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Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
Part of the problem is that the market hasn’t had restrictions in place. The cake is only so big, therefore the more people that want a piece, the smaller the slice will be, it’s that simple.

Another thing to ponder is, if things are that tough and some of the bigger named Casinos are struggling then why are there so many new ones opening. Are they fools, have they not done any research, are they just prepared to throw their money away? Probably not, they are just willing to make less profit, which will still be ample.

Another thing that may be a factor is game choice. I say may because I am not sure what the deal is between Casino and Providers. Whether Casinos lease the games or whether they have to pay providers part of the profit I don’t know but if it’s the former, then get rid of half the games at least and save a fortune on rent.

These Casinos really should let someone who knows what they are doing play and review these games for them before taking them on board. Some of them are a million miles from the standard expected by customers nowadays and I would love to see a spreadsheet of all the games that are played at a Casino and to what degree and profitability.

Anyway if we all voted with our wallet then that would help in the long term. It wouldn’t bother me if 80% of Casinos dropped out of the market because the increased revenue at the ones that remained would ensure they could keep all games at the highest rtp. I am afraid saturation of the market is largely to blame here.
 

Slottery

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Why should shareholders expect an immediate profit? Staking money in a company is a gamble, not an automatic right to a pathway to a get rich quick scheme. This is what’s wrong with capitalism today and why so many suffer at the expense of a few.

Too many investors think short term rather than long term sustainability. Slashing RTP will yield a short term boost but nothing more. If the company is rotting underneath, it has no future in terms of sustainability. Ripping off your customers, for example, is not sustainable.

Also, some profit for the long haul is better than no profit at all through going bust. So why is sustained profit ditched in favour of short term boom?

I’ve never owned a business but it even shocks me how badly some companies are run. Stick me as CEO and I’m pretty sure I could make a better fist of it than the CEOs of some companies...and I’m being serious.

Don't ask me why, didn't say investors demands are reasonable or might not end up for bad decisions to company for longer term. Owners just have power to do decisions, mostly biggest ones who can use their power and even if you don't have over 50% support, when enough owners threatening to sell their shares which in many scenarios can also cause huge damage for business.

The main goal of virtually every publicly-owned company has always been to maximize shareholder value by generating as much profit as possible.

Something like this can be found almost anywhere when you start to look what's main goal and purpose of listed company. These days when investing instruments have changed a lot and everything is much more fast paced than 20 years ago, all investors don't really just buy companies they believe is great in 10 years but something what they think is profitable enough and if not delivering what wanted, getting rid of it.

There's always need for good CEO:s, maybe just start sending CV:s to and business plans for casino companies how to find make great success and multiply value of the company, could imagine that some could be interested, just quite a project to start to plan whole operations from A to Z and show how much better in terms of profit that would come in X years or even better, right away.
 

KasinoKing

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I don’t think there is any excuse for the big sites to be reducing RTP. If you’re advertising on telly at all hours, you can afford higher RTP.

I can see the justification for smaller operators - and I’d include the likes of Videoslots and L&L here as they’re big to us, but minnows compared to 888 et al - they don’t have the deep pockets, and lower RTP may be the difference between them being profitable long term and not.

But William Hill? One of the biggest operators in the world? The chiselling bastards.
The thing I don't get, is that lowing your RTP will ultimately lower your profits.
Lower RTP = less play-time for your money and feeling "robbed" = less likely to come back to play again.

Can you imagine if all the land casinos in London said "We're removing all the single-zero roulette tables and replacing them with double-zero American ones - so you have MORE numbers to win on!"
Making it sound like they are giving something to players, when actually they would be just doubling their house edge... :(

KK
 

Lemon

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The thing I don't get, is that lowing your RTP will ultimately lower your profits.
Lower RTP = less play-time for your money and feeling "robbed" = less likely to come back to play again.

Can you imagine if all the land casinos in London said "We're removing all the single-zero roulette tables and replacing them with double-zero American ones - so you have MORE numbers to win on!"
Making it sound like they are giving something to players, when actually they would be just doubling their house edge... :(

KK
This post reminds me of my local Gala Casino about 15 years ago. I went up there one Friday night and they had installed an American roulette table at some point in the week. There was American-themed bunting in the ceiling above and the croupier was wearing a 'stars and stripes' waistcoat. But even if the croupier had been Rachel Riley and topless, nothing was going to disguise the fact that the wheel had an extra green position on it; two big fucking zero-shaped eyes staring right at you.

Surrounded by single-zero roulette tables it was never going to stand a chance, and it was gone within a month. What an absolute waste of time.
 

Kroffe

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This post reminds me of my local Gala Casino about 15 years ago. I went up there one Friday night and they had installed an American roulette table at some point in the week. There was American-themed bunting in the ceiling above and the croupier was wearing a 'stars and stripes' waistcoat. But even if the croupier had been Rachel Riley and topless, nothing was going to disguise the fact that the wheel had an extra green position on it; two big fucking zero-shaped eyes staring right at you.

Surrounded by single-zero roulette tables it was never going to stand a chance, and it was gone within a month. What an absolute waste of time.
Its a shame its not that obvious when it comes to online slots.
Nobody (almost nobody) would go for the 92-94% versions of slots if they were met with "two big fucking zero-shaped eyes". making it obvious they were about to play an inferior version. =)
 

Mouse75

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Nov 16, 2018
Location
Southport
I play at hills a fair bit - my poker account is on there and they have given some pretty decent match offers this year (£100 plus £100 on live casino with only 10x wagering (and only on bonus amount) is pretty decent - 1000 spins at £1 on red allowed in the terms as well - so basically giving £95 to regulars) - similar offers on their Vegas slots - and it was only when i checked Starburst for some basic wagering i noticed they had zapped the Netents.

Sad times
 

Mouse75

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Re my last message - for Hills account owners - check your live casino promos. Outlined offer is available again (selected customers only) this weekend.
 

Lemon

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Its a shame its not that obvious when it comes to online slots.
Nobody (almost nobody) would go for the 92-94% versions of slots if they were met with "two big fucking zero-shaped eyes". making it obvious they were about to play an inferior version. =)
Yeah you can obfuscate RTP changes in a million different ways on slots. On roulette what else can you do? Leave it as one zero but only pay 34-1? Same with video poker; very few options other than changing the paytable.
 

Mouse75

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I'm not defending Hills in anyway - RTP nerfing pisses me off.
Interesting though that they have added DW games to their providers in the last few months.... games more akin to American casino slots - but all on 97% RTP - which - lets face it - is decent
 
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