Why would you do it?

4 of a kind

Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll
Joined
Mar 11, 2009
Location
New York
[Max says: this was split off from "Return to Player - Critiques Requested" for what I assume are obvious reasons.]

In terms of creating a page that addresses the major issues for online gaming - I'd agree there is little hope of that. The waters there are a little too deep, and a little too murky, for a small group of people out of Vancouver to clear on their own.


Since you are the CEO of a gaming software provider, and certainly appear to be one of the good guys, maybe you could answer a few question that I'm curious about.

What drives a CEO of a software company to engage and associate within an industry that for over a decade has a reputation of misleading, embezzling, committing fraud, and outright blatantly stealing money from their customers? It's obvious you realize the waters are murky and deep as per your own quote above.

Based on your out of pocket settlement for 40K to a player that was obviously being stolen from one of these crooks using your software, what motivated the board to pay this victim while looking ahead?

It should be obvious to most that your decision to pay that amount was of course the righteous thing to do, but looking ahead did the company believe it would eventually recover those losses and continue to show profits?

Do software providers put all of these negative factual issues on the side, and take the approach that someone is going to do it regardless, so we might as well get a piece of the billion dollar industry?

If the operators are not regulated, why don't the software providers who are willing to supply the operators with the equipment needed to steal from their customers, have their own regulations and enforcement in place for protection which would in turn protect not only the software company but the customers also?

Would these conditions being in place before you sold them your software bring sales to a screeching halt?

Do software providers get a one lump fee upfront, or are the providers receiving commissions from the casino profits?

If the software providers receive commissions all along, (which I believe is correct since they own the source codes) wouldn't that in reality make the software provider and the operator both one in the same?
 
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Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
In terms of creating a page that addresses the major issues for online gaming - I'd agree there is little hope of that. The waters there are a little too deep, and a little too murky, for a small group of people out of Vancouver to clear on their own.
/QUOTE]


Since you are the CEO of a gaming software provider, and certainly appear to be one of the good guys, maybe you could answer a few question that I'm curious about.

What drives a CEO of a software company to engage and associate within an industry that for over a decade has a reputation of misleading, embezzling, committing fraud, and outright blatantly stealing money from their customers? It's obvious you realize the waters are murky and deep as per your own quote above.

Based on your out of pocket settlement for 40K to a player that was obviously being stolen from one of these crooks using your software, what motivated the board to pay this victim while looking ahead?

It should be obvious to most that your decision to pay that amount was of course the righteous thing to do, but looking ahead did the company believe it would eventually recover those losses and continue to show profits?

Do software providers put all of these negative factual issues on the side, and take the approach that someone is going to do it regardless, so we might as well get a piece of the billion dollar industry?

If the operators are not regulated, why don't the software providers who are willing to supply the operators with the equipment needed to steal from their customers, have their own regulations and enforcement in place for protection which would in turn protect not only the software company but the customers also?

Would these conditions being in place before you sold them your software bring sales to a screeching halt?

Do software providers get a one lump fee upfront, or are the providers receiving commissions from the casino profits?

If the software providers receive commissions all along, (which I believe is correct since they own the source codes) wouldn't that in reality make the software provider and the operator both one in the same?

Maybe I'm misreading the title, but I thought this thread was about RTP and how it works.

It seems you are once again hijacking a thread with your personal "online casinos are satans instruments" agenda. We all know where you're at, so how about refraining from interrogating a rep who came here to provide useful game information for members. It just seems like you have jumped on the guy with a whole lot of conspiracy theory nonsense.

Poor form IMO.
 

jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
Yeah....I have to say I got the same impression that 4oak was posting O/T and with the intention of yet again furthering his somewhat negative and now well known agenda regarding the online gambling industry in general.

I hope this is not going to be another useful thread derailed.
 

4 of a kind

Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll
Joined
Mar 11, 2009
Location
New York
I would like to apologize for my aggressive tone focusing on my well known personal agenda, which is actually nothing more then trying to keep in the forefront the realities of gaming online.

Unfortunately, for the most part I might be one of the last few members still here that is willing to call a spade a spade, and not afraid of asking the tough questions. Most other members in the past that were willing to challenge the lack of integrity have either been banned for one reason or an other, or surrendered and packed up. Some here I’m certain would hope the same fate fall my way.

I felt this thread I hijacked from a software provider posting all this fluff about RTP’s was nothing more then a commercial trying to win the opinions of the members here. I agree it could be an interesting topic for members not familiar with it, especially if everything was confirmed with online gaming to be on the up and up. But all of this same information could be found at the Wizard of Odds who's explanations are a result of confirmed regulated and enforced facts with land-based casinos.

I thought the questions I asked were fare and took the opportunity in that thread to ask them, since the OP appeared to be sincere and didn’t think he would clam up.

Many threads have been started in the past asking similar questions to online gaming reps., operators, and software providers, only to be completely ignored and fade away. I thought this was a good opportunity while one was talking to get some answers, but as you could see they’ll go unanswered and just fade away.

I apologize to the members I offended for once again trying to bring to light the well kept secrets hidden in the dark side of online gaming.
 

silcnlayc

Just one more spin pleez!
PABaccred
PABnonaccred
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Location
Left Hungary
I would like to apologize for my aggressive tone focusing on my well known personal agenda, which is actually nothing more then trying to keep in the forefront the realities of gaming online.

Unfortunately, for the most part I might be one of the last few members still here that is willing to call a spade a spade, and not afraid of asking the tough questions. Most other members in the past that were willing to challenge the lack of integrity have either been banned for one reason or an other, or surrendered and packed up. Some here I’m certain would hope the same fate fall my way.

I felt this thread I hijacked from a software provider posting all this fluff about RTP’s was nothing more then a commercial trying to win the opinions of the members here. I agree it could be an interesting topic for members not familiar with it, especially if everything was confirmed with online gaming to be on the up and up. But all of this same information could be found at the Wizard of Odds who's explanations are a result of confirmed regulated and enforced facts with land-based casinos.

I thought the questions I asked were fare and took the opportunity in that thread to ask them, since the OP appeared to be sincere and didn’t think he would clam up.

Many threads have been started in the past asking similar questions to online gaming reps., operators, and software providers, only to be completely ignored and fade away. I thought this was a good opportunity while one was talking to get some answers, but as you could see they’ll go unanswered and just fade away.

I apologize to the members I offended for once again trying to bring to light the well kept secrets hidden in the dark side of online gaming.
No need to apologise. You had a question or thought and you posted/asked it. Not all of us have been run off. Just tired of the silly games some want to play when one does have something to say or ask which is then hijacked by them by their inane damands of stuff that has no bearing on the question or opinion of itself that was posted. You are not alone. You are allowed to question and post. And we are still here reading.

.
 

LaHutti

Sr. ÜberUnter Ass. Man.
PABaccred
PABnonaccred
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Location
East and West
No need to apologise. You had a question or thought and you posted/asked it. Not all of us have been run off. Just tired of the silly games some want to play when one does have something to say or ask which is then hijacked by them by their inane damands of stuff that has no bearing on the question or opinion of itself that was posted. You are not alone. You are allowed to question and post. And we are still here reading.

.

Ditto that.
 

Cleveland

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2011
Location
Texas
Since you are the CEO of a gaming software provider, and certainly appear to be one of the good guys, maybe you could answer a few question that I'm curious about.

It seems as if you are double talking. I for one somewhat enjoy reading your threads but why would a rep want to engage in this discussion when it's obvious that no matter what he says, you are ready to demonize him? You start by saying he appears to be a good guy, as if to reel him in then drop how you really feel on him:

I felt this thread I hijacked from a software provider posting all this fluff about RTP’s was nothing more then a commercial trying to win the opinions of the members here.
since the OP appeared to be sincere and didn’t think he would clam up.....
....I thought this was a good opportunity while one was talking to get some answers, but as you could see they’ll go unanswered and just fade away.

And this is obviously a loaded question:

your decision to pay that amount was of course the righteous thing to do, but looking ahead did the company believe it would eventually recover those losses and continue to show profits?

Of course they figured or hoped they would show a profit. What company wants to outright lose money? With this questions you basically said "hey I know you helped and paid the guy, but you did it because you're evil and knew you would some how get the money back"

You have a debate between people who are willing to engage in a back and forth dialogue with a mind open to "possibly" changing the way they think. This thread isn't it.

edit: This was my first multi quote response/thread. Got it right on my first try. O yea :yahoo:
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
PABinit
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
Dammit Cleve. You got it right first time but I have failed numerous times and I give up. I am a computer illiterate and I must admit that. Never mind, you wrote what I wanted to say.
 

jod5413

Is That Better?
Joined
Mar 6, 2007
Location
somewhere on the planet
4oak, If you would not throw in comments like "Most other members in the past that were willing to challenge the lack of integrity have either been banned for one reason or an other, or surrendered and packed up. Some here I’m certain would hope the same fate fall my way." and others like it I believe more members would be willing to at least think about your points of view about on line gambling. Not all of your points are wrong, I don't believe, but the delivery method just turns people off and that causes dissension among the members.

I do not think any intelligent person would deny the pitfalls and possibility of losing their money in an unregulated on line industry based on gambling. But you will not convince anyone when you paint all with the same brush, which is how I see so many of your thoughts being delivered.

Just my opinion.
 

binary128

Dormant account
Joined
May 18, 2009
Location
Vancouver, BC
I only now became aware of this thread. I have no problems in contributing, in the hope that I am providing something of value to the audience.

[Moderators: Please Note. I tried to keep out anything which could be considered "spammy" or promotional. Please edit if I have not been successful.]

Why would I do it?

Well, first of all, I LIKE playing our Pontoon, Pai Gow Poker, Jacks or Better, Deuces Wild, Craps, and Oasis Poker games. I play them in our play-for-free product all the time.

Second, I have written, and continue to write, a lot of the computer code that has gone into our products. Helping to create our products, and helping to build our company, have been tremendously satisfying to me. I enjoy seeing something which I have created, or helped to create, work seamlessly and flawlessly; it has been, and continues to be, a fantastic personal experience.

Both Galewind and my current deployment are perfectly content with the House Edge for a profit. There are no "Robots" exclusions, or "Pattern Bettor" exclusions. Players are not blocked if they are on a winning streak, regardless of the extent of that streak (and there have been some real doozies). The "marketing strategy" is very simple: high returns. In short, it is exactly what it appears to be: if you win, you win, and you get paid.

Re: "It's obvious you realize the waters are murky and deep ..." We'd have to have been living under a rock not to realize otherwise. Have there been problems? Certainly (data: Rogue Pit). Do these problems continue? Also certainly (data: Rogue Pit). Is corruption a requirement? Well, no, it's not.

Re: "... what motivated the board to pay this victim ..." We paid Westland Bowl because someone had to. He won "fair and square". That's it. Really, that's it.

Re: "... recover those losses ..." We gave this no thought whatsoever. How do you recover that kind of loss? We don't do any advertising, so we couldn't incorporate it into any kind of "Promotional Budget". We just wrote a check, and went back to work.

Think about it for a sec, 4oaK? For 2 and a half years, did we talk about it? Where could we? Did we promote it? Where could we? Can you point to anything anywhere which demonstrates that we used this in any way to recoup the loss? I leave that to you to answer for yourself. My answer: if we did it, we did it really really badly.

We wrote a check, and we went back to work. That's it.

As to the rest of your first post - I don't know how to reply. For some of it, I think, a response is not really practical. For the rest, well, to be accurate, I don't think it is really any of your business.


In your follow up post: "... posting all this fluff about RTP’s ..."

This comment, and the entire paragraph in which it is contained, upset me. You have made clear your belief that Casino software companies are part of "... an industry that for over a decade has a reputation of misleading, embezzling, committing fraud, and outright blatantly stealing money from their customers ..."

However, when a software company attempts to do something which goes against that belief, you state that such an effort is "... nothing more then a commercial trying to win the opinions of the members here ..."

(Also of note: If the page for which I was asking critique is "fluff", then it is the highest-density fluff since the creation of the sofa.)

So 4oaK, come on, you know all of this. You know all of this.

But, for me, the bottom line: I don't appreciate getting a punch in the jaw for no other reason than that I decided to enter the room.

Chris
 

samoas

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2003
Location
Philly born & raised 2 traffic lights away
No need to apologise. You had a question or thought and you posted/asked it. Not all of us have been run off. Just tired of the silly games some want to play when one does have something to say or ask which is then hijacked by them by their inane damands of stuff that has no bearing on the question or opinion of itself that was posted. You are not alone. You are allowed to question and post. And we are still here reading.

.

Well said.
 

same_old

Dormant account
webmeister
PABaccred
Joined
Mar 4, 2007
Location
Australia
You know what, I'm actually to lazy to even have an argument with someone in a forum or somewhere else.

Half you people need to get/have kids- let's see how much energy you all have after a day with your child. I just made myself laugh then ( what a weirdo I'am)

Look at Mummy Machine- not a bad word comes out of her mouth!!!

But honestly people- how much energy can one have to keep going on about something. if you all like I can let my little Benny come over and play with you for a day.
 

jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
It seems as if you are double talking. I for one somewhat enjoy reading your threads but why would a rep want to engage in this discussion when it's obvious that no matter what he says, you are ready to demonize him? You start by saying he appears to be a good guy, as if to reel him in then drop how you really feel on him:




And this is obviously a loaded question:



Of course they figured or hoped they would show a profit. What company wants to outright lose money? With this questions you basically said "hey I know you helped and paid the guy, but you did it because you're evil and knew you would some how get the money back"

You have a debate between people who are willing to engage in a back and forth dialogue with a mind open to "possibly" changing the way they think. This thread isn't it.

edit: This was my first multi quote response/thread. Got it right on my first try. O yea :yahoo:


IMO that was a damned good post that pretty much hit the nail on the head, especially regarding the use of polite but insulting innuendo by 4oak, Cleveland.

As for the second par of 4oak's post, this "I'm the only hard man here still asking tough, fearless questions" sort of claim has been pushed forward so often by other members in the past that I've started to privately think of it as the Crusader Syndrome. That's when an individual gets so self-absorbed and dedicated to a single agenda that they begin to lose sight of all else but their own opinion, unable to resist the temptation to hammer it across at every opportunity.

Few would disagree that proper and effective regulation could make the online gambling world a better place, but the industry and those in it are not universally evil and dishonest, and it can get tiresome to have that assumption thrown into every conversation. There's also the danger that that sort of repetitive mantra may discourage a diversity of views being expressed.
 

Simmo!

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
But, for me, the bottom line: I don't appreciate getting a punch in the jaw for no other reason than that I decided to enter the room.

Chris

Good post Chris. Regarding the last (quoted) line:

Unfortunately gambling is an emotional topic as we are all aware and the fact it is about "winning money" from another party means you invariably end up with a lot of people regarding it as a "them and us" situation.

One consequence of that is that industry cynics (nb: no harm in that IMO) and those that have had bad past experiences will take the opportunity to air grievances in public given a suitable opportunity. It's just the way the cookie crumbles and in their defence, it is just human nature.

I hope that won't put you off posting. A number of reps have stopped unfortunately for exactly this reason - they feel they just become a target for some members and they're right but for most of us we welcome the opportunity to debate sensibly and hopefully learn in the process.

We have a "Report A Post" facility (the exclamation mark symbol) on each post which can be used if you think someone has stepped out of line.

Cheers

Simmo!
 

4 of a kind

Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll
Joined
Mar 11, 2009
Location
New York
Chris,

I do owe you an apology for coming at you with guns a blazing, and for that I do apologize.

Personal questions I agree are none of my business. But gaming integrity questions are everybody’s business.

Players have a right to know they are getting a fair game and who is making sure we’re getting a fair game.
Players know the RTP’s get changed, but we also want to know when, how, and who can change them.
Players want to know what the max and min. the RTP’s could be set at.
Players want to know who’s monitoring these changes and who’s making sure the source codes aren’t rigged.
Players want to know for fact that there could be no collusion between the software provider and the casino operator.
Players want to know for confirmed fact if a Random Jackpot is hit with a max cash-out limit player that the balances are returned to the jackpot.
Players want to know with confirmed fact table games are not just some glorified slot machine.

Trust me this is just a short list of gaming integrity requirements I think everyone has a right to know about with confirmed fact. I’m not even touching the other issues running rampart, like winnings being stolen, bonus bullshit, T&C’s, or any of that other nonsense.

I used every resource I had available contacting 5 online gaming commissions, trying to talk to reps. or software engineers, and still to this day can’t get one single questioned answered.

What Jetset says below I’m afraid is rather accurate.

Crusader Syndrome: That's when an individual gets so self-absorbed and dedicated to a single agenda that they begin to lose sight of all else but their own opinion, unable to resist the temptation to hammer it across at every opportunity.
 
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