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Why must terms be so confusing and used to basically steal from players?

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Bonus Issues' started by xocxof, Dec 30, 2014.

    Dec 30, 2014
  1. xocxof

    xocxof Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Mother, wife.
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Almost 100% of the time casinos use the most minute term in order to keep your winnings. They search for any reason at all not to pay. It is disheartening. They purposely keep them vague in my opinion or at least hard to determine.

    An example is that I just had a nice win taken from me. The reason given is that I was only allowed to bet 7.5 per sping because the terms said "5% of bonus max bet". Well, that is confusing in my opinion. they list the bonus in the casino as the entire amount. So, for example, if you had 300 in your account they would show the entire 300 as bonus amount. Yet they say only 150 of it was bonus so if you bet 8 or 9 on a spin then they say you broke terms.... well that is absurd! firstly, it is a disgusting rule to say you must keep constant surveilance of your bet size when trying to have fun, but further (and I was paying attention) they list the bonus amount in the casino as my entire balance.

    These types of things have happened to me at least 3 times now thruought my time gambling. Winning is so hard. Then they comb through my play to see if they can make up any infraction in order to not pay. It feels like I have to get some lucky spins AND get lucky in how they view their terms. I am disgusted and sick of online gambling. It seems to be a den of thieves these days... /end rant. Not a very attrractive first post I know. Im not usually one to post but am just so upset lately.
     
    2 people like this.
  2. Dec 30, 2014
  3. bigjohn

    bigjohn Meister Member MM PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Swimming Pool Serviceman
    Location:
    Northeast Coastal USA
    The terms are vicious because there are many vicious players who are out to take advantage of these businesses.

    I don't know what casinos you have played at but if you choose a place to play from the Casinomeister Accredited List you can be more secure in knowing that those establishments have been thoroughly vetted in these forums and will not try to make up new terms as they go along.

    Dealing with the T&C's is part of playing online and you will find many players who just don't take any bonuses at all because they have been bitten.
     
    2 people like this.
  4. Dec 30, 2014
  5. Jakestar

    Jakestar Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Aircraft Pushback Driver
    Location:
    Australia
    That is why I don't take any kinda of deposit bonus and haven't for quite a long time. One exception is I took a deposit bonus recently at GUTS during their Christmas promotions, and only because GUTS are the first Casino I've come across who have really clear and to the point T&C's. So was the first time in prolly over a year that I felt comfortable and confident taking a deposit bonus. Not even at PartyCasino, which I have played and been a regular player for years, do I ever feel comfortable taking a deposit bonus and thus have never taken one there in recent times - and also because they review (which is fair enough) your play history to make sure you didn't beach any T&C, but I would just rather my withdrawal approved straight away :)
     
    3 people like this.
  6. Dec 30, 2014
  7. nisosbar

    nisosbar Ueber Meister PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    Other
    Location:
    Right here
    I generally will take only bonuses at 3Dice because they don't pull any nonsense. From other casinos, I will take no deposit bonuses (either upfront or cashback) but if I am making a fresh deposit, it's done without a matching bonus or free spins or anything like that. And if a casino has restrictions on even a straight cash deposit (as some have imposed on players in the past), then I simply won't play there, period.
     
    2 people like this.
  8. Dec 30, 2014
  9. xocxof

    xocxof Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Mother, wife.
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Well, thank you all so much. I see I am not alone. It just feels so rotten. Probably because I have been having a Holiday made of rubbish, horrible luck on the slots and finally got some good fortune only to have them say the bonus isnt really what we say the bonus is its only half because that causes you to break terms and therefore we can skirt the real spirit of gambling and winning and not pay you at all even though you really did beat us. Please come back and play again.

    I should start a new thread of which places pay the fastest and dont bother with terms and just let you gamble. 32 Red is always tops and it says so here but I like netent slots too. I likE to be varied. I will take any suggestions. I have about 200 per month that I deposit, however wins have been very few and far between. I wont be depositing again until the 10 of january most likely at the earliest. Klaver just knocked me for a loop on this one.

    on another subject: these rules and rubbish like they did to me makes me think that if thereal rtp is say 95% then when they calculate in thier outrageous "rules" or whatever then they must keep upwards of 99% of all deposits. What a business model. I think im going to just drink wine and read a book. I just feel so very sick to my stomach about this one. If I had lost I am certain they wouldnt have come to me and returned my deposit stating that I broke terms and am not allowed to then lose my money. I just want to sleep and never wake up. criminals is what they are.
     
  10. Dec 30, 2014
  11. homerbert

    homerbert I-Gaming Industry Representative webby

    Occupation:
    nothing :)
    Location:
    middle of Europe!
    I don't get it.
    You already had few times your winnings confiscated due to non-reading bonus rules, and now it happens again? Probably it's just good time to start reading rules and play fair?
    I never thought that max bet rule is bad(well, except skill on net guys, where you can bet max 10% of bonus amount received, this is sucks). In most casinos it is 5-10$ per spin, which is quite high, specially for players who deposit '200 per month'.For high rolles it could be headache, but in the end of the day you can does not take bonus - and be free and wild :)
     
  12. Dec 30, 2014
  13. Azzurri

    Azzurri Banned User

    Occupation:
    Non of your business
    Location:
    From Foil Land
    I have to second this.

    Twice I have accidentally broken the terms regarding bet limits, once at Betat, and once at Guts, my two favourite sites, and on both occasions I have contacted support and the reps here (although I did do so early, as soon as I realized), and on both occasions these two great sites took no action and let me continue with the winnings.

    This is the difference between great sites, and those that aren't.

    Whilst not all accredited sites will be this lenient, it is worth noting past threads here for occasions like this, and what the outcome was, as I would be more inclined to play at the accredited sites that show this type of player understanding, when it's clear the player made a genuine mistake, rather than intentionally tried to get one over the casino.

    If you are new here, I highly recommend Betat and Guts for the obvious reasons stated here, and in addition to the numerous other benefits they offer us as players. :thumbsup:

    EDIT: I should also add, that I had made myself very familiar with both Betat and Gut's terms many times before in the past, and my mistakes came as I simply got the max bet terms confused from one site to the next. I'm aware this is still my mistake, but just goes to show that honest mistakes can happen, as it's easy to not check the terms each time you make a new deposit, when you are certain you remember them as a regular customer, and feel secure in the fact you have the right information in mind.
     
  14. Dec 30, 2014
  15. Azzurri

    Azzurri Banned User

    Occupation:
    Non of your business
    Location:
    From Foil Land
    To be fair to the op, I think the '% of your balance or bonus amount' terms are purposely made difficult for 'all' to understand for no reason, when it is just as easy to do what most good sites do, and that is to clearly state a max amount such as $6.50 or $10.00 etc. The fact that some don't do this, leads me to believe they are making the terms that little bit harder for some to understand, in the hope of having a loophole should the customer win big.

    Personally, I vote with my wallet, and don't play at any sites that have those % terms, regardless of their accredited status, and not because I can't work the terms out, but because I don't feel I should have to make that added effort to do so when I am paying for a service, and most likely donating a substantial amount of money to the site anyway.

    Stick to the sites that have clear and easy to understand terms, and not only will you feel more protected, but maybe the other sites will catch on and follow suit.

    Just my 2 cents.
     
  16. Dec 30, 2014
  17. xocxof

    xocxof Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Mother, wife.
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I do not think you understood my post. I very much indicated that I did read the terms. My issue is that, as you pointed out, they say for example 10% of bonus amount. However, they list in the cashier as my full amount being bonus money. Thus, if you deposit 100 and get 100 then they show your total balance of 200 as being bonus money in the casino. Well, in this example 10% is 20. However, they say that 10% means only of bonus. In my mind I am thinking "yeah, I know what 10% of 200 is". However, they say No, 10% of 100. 100 is your bonus and 100 is your deposit. Then I think "well WHY DO YOU SAY MY ENTIRE BALANCE IS BONUS on one hand but if you can confiscate my money you change what is the bonus amount". It is confusing and shady. I am not a lawyer. I don't have a degree in deciphering every angle of every term. I get the main concept of the terms. But this is subjective. They change their definitions to state that some term was broken. I obviously was just playing slots and trying to gamble a bit. I didn't try and sneak one by them. They did use lawyer like maneuvers to sieze all of my money. For the love of Pete they use software to make money for their company, if they dont want you to bet more than a certain amount then change the software to not allow for it. They lay a mine field of minute terms to trip you up. It is disgusting.
    I agree about not taking bonuses anymore. But they do help you to play longer when you dont have as many funds to deposit.
     
    1 person likes this.
  18. Dec 31, 2014
  19. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    It's pretty obvious what it means to most people - 7.5% OF BONUS AMOUNT CREDITED IN ADDITION TO YOUR DEPOSIT.
    It doesn't say "7.5% of running bonus balance" does it?
    If it did when your bonus reached say 75p you would be limited to 7.5p bets. You'd have change every game or slot spin according to the level of the bonus balance, an insane scenario! Similarly if you got lucky and your bonus balance reached £1000 do you seriously think they'd let you wager £75 of their cash on one spin of a slot which could yield you say 15K?
    Sorry but you need to use a bit of common here.

    As for the piece of your post I bolded, you are being in my opinion deliberately obtuse. They changed no definitions, you misunderstood the terms and are now declaring they are 'disgusting' and 'used lawyer-like manoeuvres to seize your money'. Yes, I understand you feel a little piqued that you have been caught out by not fully reading (or understanding) the terms, but if in doubt why didn't you go on the chat to clarify before you played?

    The terms will state that EITHER your deposit and bonus all become bonus money until wagering is cleared OR your deposit remains cash and is played first before you use the bonus funds. Whichever, the % age max bet applies to the bonus amount you received as it says.

    P.S. If you're so sure you read the terms, then name the casino, we'll find them and copy them up here and show you where you misread them. Otherwise we've only got your word they are misleading and not standard.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2014
    3 people like this.
  20. Jan 2, 2015
  21. gwolfman1

    gwolfman1 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Loan agent
    Location:
    San Diego US
    Bonus bull###

    Yes

    I just want to say that I also totally believe that the bonus terms are written to be confusioning and used to steal your money. I have not personally had any winnings denied because of broken terms or bonus misuse but this did happen to me.

    I started playing at iNetBet about six months ago. I really liked the casino and was always getting special vip bonuses e-mailed to me and also sent to me by snail mail to.

    I was really happy with the bonuses they sent and used them a lot . These were not non-deposit bonuses they were match bonuses. Well to get to the point I hit a RJ for $15,000+ first time I ever hit one. I couldn't believe it . So I cashed out $14,000. I had always heard nothing but great comments on this casino for quick payouts.

    Well about 5 business days had gone bye and I hadn't heard anything from them. I was already approved because I took care of all that the first week I registered with them. While I was waiting to find out what was happening with my money I read a comment on this site from a player who was really pissed at iNetBet. The player said she tried to cash out some winnings for a few hundred dollars and was denied the payout because of bonus abuse.

    She could not believe that her payout was denied. She said that she thought she was considered a VIP customer because they always sent her bonuses just like they were doing for me. She said she played out their casino most of the time because of how well they treated her. Well after they denied her payout she told them to go to h### and close her account.

    After reading her comment I was in shock because every deposit I made I used one of the VIP bonuses I was sent. Just like her I thought they wanted me to use those bonuses. She was denied a payout of only a few hundered for bonus abuse and I was now waiting for $14,000. I was so nervious and worried for days after I read her posting. I sent an e-mail right away to support asking what was going on with my winnings. Two days later I receive an e-mail telling me I needed to resend all my documents again inorder for them to process my withdrawal request. I e-mail them a copy of the e-mail they sent me six months ago stating all my documents were received and I was now fully approved.

    Well they sent me another e-mail back saying I had to go throw the process again because my documents were six months old and now they wanted everything updated. Bye the way at this point I had received nothing congratulating me on my win.

    Well after I had resubmitted everything they approved me and said now they could start to process my request for the payout. Then I receive an e-mail telling me I was approved but the maximum I could withdraw was $2,500 per week. I was finally able to take a sigh of relief that I was not going to be denied my money for bonus abuse. I was ok with $2,500 per week.

    Well what ended up happing was it took a month to get each payment and I finally received my last payment at the end of December. I had started the payment request on Sept 5th. So much for quick payouts.
     
    2 people like this.
  22. Jan 2, 2015
  23. rockycatt

    rockycatt meistercatt CAG MM

    Occupation:
    carpenter
    Location:
    Boston
    if I could I would write them so a third grader could understand them , then tell them once if they cant understand them then they are bonus banned 90 days, 120 days 1 year in that order :)
     
  24. Jan 2, 2015
  25. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    Yes, it was slow but you are USA and we all know the aggravation US players face with cash-outs. I presume you were sent cheques. As for max $2500 per week, it was in the terms before CS told you about it. You obviously didn't read that bit. You got your 6 payments, all your winnings so I am not sure what your beef is here, they never denied your winnings or failed to pay, did they? As for documents, should a player (already verified) win big after 3-6 months then again it's not unusual for security reasons to re-check if anything has changed.
    To be honest you've made all this sound far worse than it actually is. The only thing that concerns me really is the fact they pay a RTG jackpot in instalments like some rogue Playtech sites do, when they've already been paid the whole sum by the software provider.
    Well done on the win BTW!
     
    1 person likes this.
  26. Jan 3, 2015
  27. daenyboi

    daenyboi Non-Gambler

    Occupation:
    Painter
    Location:
    Sweden
    Why do people here have to neglect what the Op is saying.

    Having 500 terms and conditions and if the casino cant stop the payout that way they find another way.


    Casinos saying - Hi Deposit 500 and get to play with 1000 its 500 totally freeeeee.


    Well guess what it isnt.

    One of theese days i would laugh so hard when a casino is brought up to justice for false marketing. :thumbsup:


    And thats why i never use deposit bonuses, unless i want to lose and just play to lose.
     
  28. Jan 3, 2015
  29. chayton

    chayton aka LooHoo CAG PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    Freelance Designer
    Location:
    Edmonton Canada
    I must have missed that - I've never seen or heard of iNetBet not paying because of 'bonus abuse' - can you link to that post? They are VERY strict with their terms, and I know they've not paid because of terms violations (betting more than max bet or playing disallowed games) but they certainly wouldn't be accredited here if they denied legitimate winnings using some trumped up excuse.

    Personally though I think that the reason that terms are so convoluted now is that there are tons of fraudsters and scammers taking advantage of any little loophole they can find. It's like the chainsaw with the label that says "Do not stop chainsaw with hands or genitals" - it seems stupid, but you know damn well that someone did that very thing and found some scummy lawyer and tried to sue the company because there wasn't a warning label saying he shouldn't. :p
     
    3 people like this.
  30. Jan 7, 2015
  31. iNetBet Promos

    iNetBet Promos Accredited Casino Representative

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Hi All,
    A Happy New Year to everyone.

    Didn't really want to post in a thread about another Casino however as there are a few comments about us I thought I would just clarify.

    - We have never denied winnings or a withdrawal due to bonus abuse. If a player has been allowed to claim a bonus then this will be honoured along with any cash out from this.

    - To answer dunover's concern the Jackpot that gwolfman1 hit was not a system wide progressive but an in house one so the jackpot was not one that is paid out by the software provider. gwolfman1's payout was made as fast as possible given the weekly limit on the payout method chosen.

    Hope this clarifies a few things for everyone

    Have a great 2015 :)
     
    3 people like this.

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