Why is this acceptable in an accredited casino?

LRDell

Experienced Member
PABaccred
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Feb 25, 2004
Location
East Coast, USA
Bank wires are basically instantaneous transfers from one financial institution to another. There may be a hour or two delay while it goes through the clearinghouse, but always same day. Even if a bank wire is coming from another country, it should be within 1 - 2 days. I know it can happen because in a recently settled dispute with an accredited casino, they wired the agreed amount to my bank and it was there the next day.

So even if a casino is not in the US, why is it acceptable for a bank wire withdrawal to take "5 to 15 business days" to arrive at my bank. The casino shall remain nameless at this point because I don't have any other issues with them. But with this particular withdrawal it already "got hung up with our intermediary processors and was delayed, but we have sent it again" (read "we are now starting over again with the 5 to 15 days).

I thought that one of the rules of being an accredited casino was TIMELY payouts. And this time delay is on top of a rediculous $60 up front fee and a warning that intermediary banks might take more out.

Thoughts? Particulary from CM folks who handle accredidation.
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
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Even if you were located in different countries the wire should take no more than 2 working days provided all the banking info is correct. The fee charged by the clearing house is mandatory but an upfront fee of $60 is unacceptable. OK there are costs involved but I undrstand it should only cost something in the region of $15 and even then it should be somewhat shared between player and casino. In my region the cost of sending a wire to another country is $13USD + $15/25 intermediary fees. Though we should seek an explanation from the casino about the lofty fees and excessively long waiting times for the wires at first glance this does not conform to 'timely payouts'.
 

dandan

Seven day suspension for being a PITA
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I started a thread on the same discussion re the ridiculous fees!!!
 

Casinomeister

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Bierland
It is acceptable since this is "par for the course" so to speak. If you are in the States - expect delays and them some. If this is unacceptable for you, then don't play. Either that or move to Europe. :p Simple as that.
 

bigjohn

Dormant account
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Dec 21, 2012
Location
Northeast Coastal USA
I think the problem is how much effort the casinos have to go through to get the money to us US players.

All traces of casino involvement have to be thoroughly rinsed off before it can be sent. I would not be surprised if the payment had to go through multiple processors before being sent to the recipient and each middleman wants a cut.

It's a little like a mailman who has one house with a fence around it and an angry dog on patrol, you can't base his accreditation on timely deliveries to that one house. Some casinos seem to do better than others for a while until another one of their way points get shut off then they start experiencing delays and fees.

I don't like to say it but it's probably going to get worse before it get better. The fact is our government is trying to shut off an activity that they see as immoral and to a large degree they have succeeded but, just like prohibition, all they have really done is drive out the good guys.

Any payment problems we are experiencing with accredited casinos are directly caused by our Government.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
It is acceptable since this is "par for the course" so to speak. If you are in the States - expect delays and them some. If this is unacceptable for you, then don't play. Either that or move to Europe. :p Simple as that.

Even here it seems most casinos have reverted to the "middle ages" when it comes to processing withdrawals. One has to remember that this is all electronic processing, no clerks with quill pens writing cheques on parchment, or contacting another department or processor in the chain by carrier pigeon.

The US aside, with the technology available in 2005 the vast majority of MGS casinos could process a withdrawal in 24-48 hours all the way to a players' eWallet account. Now, 2013 technology allows them to complete the task in twice the time. They are "having a laff" at our expense, but there is an implied cartel in the industry where this is something they won't compete aggressively with one another over bar a small few (32Red for example, and some of the larger high street chains).

My bank is very security concious when it comes to electronic transactions, yet I can pay an account (even someone else) I have paid before in about 30 seconds, and a completely new recipient in a few minutes, including the text/call containing the one time verification code to unlock the recipient. This is what banks have achieved with 2013 technology over 2005, when such payments took at least 3 days to reflect in the recipient account, one day SLOWER than the average MGS casino to eWallet timescale.

Players still play in sufficient quantities, so operators not only fail to compete, but regularly add a little here and there to the timescales to see what they can get away with, which currently seems to be 48-72 hours before players start to kick up a fuss.

If players did kick up a stink, we would soon see movement back towards 24 hours, even less, as the "industry standard". It really needs a few major operators to break ranks and compete aggressively on withdrawal timescales, and the others will soon follow suit.
 

bigjohn

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 21, 2012
Location
Northeast Coastal USA
Even here it seems most casinos have reverted to the "middle ages" when it comes to processing withdrawals. One has to remember that this is all electronic processing, no clerks with quill pens writing cheques on parchment, or contacting another department or processor in the chain by carrier pigeon.

The US aside, with the technology available in 2005 the vast majority of MGS casinos could process a withdrawal in 24-48 hours all the way to a players' eWallet account. Now, 2013 technology allows them to complete the task in twice the time. They are "having a laff" at our expense, but there is an implied cartel in the industry where this is something they won't compete aggressively with one another over bar a small few (32Red for example, and some of the larger high street chains).

My bank is very security concious when it comes to electronic transactions, yet I can pay an account (even someone else) I have paid before in about 30 seconds, and a completely new recipient in a few minutes, including the text/call containing the one time verification code to unlock the recipient. This is what banks have achieved with 2013 technology over 2005, when such payments took at least 3 days to reflect in the recipient account, one day SLOWER than the average MGS casino to eWallet timescale.

Players still play in sufficient quantities, so operators not only fail to compete, but regularly add a little here and there to the timescales to see what they can get away with, which currently seems to be 48-72 hours before players start to kick up a fuss.

If players did kick up a stink, we would soon see movement back towards 24 hours, even less, as the "industry standard". It really needs a few major operators to break ranks and compete aggressively on withdrawal timescales, and the others will soon follow suit.

Agreed there should be virtually no delay in countries that are unrestricted but as Bryan pointed out for players where the government is aggressively fighting these transactions it's a take it or leave it situation. I can get an instant transaction to or from a local business here too.

By my analogy with the mailman, maybe the mailman gives a neighborhood kid a buck to climb the fence and deliver the mail for him. That works good until the kid gets bitten by the dog. The next kid is gonna want 2 bucks because he knows what happened to the first kid. He might even want his friend to help him relay the delivery for another 2 bucks. So now it's 4 bucks and nobody is in a big hurry to go play with the dog!

Where these transactions are unrestricted the best method you have for redress is to vote with your wallet.
 

maxd

PAB (Complaints) Manager
Staff member
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Location
Saltirelandia
I think the problem is how much effort the casinos have to go through to get the money to us US players. ... Any payment problems we are experiencing with accredited casinos are directly caused by our Government.

Bang on! These days something like the following is the procedure required by a casino to get money to a player. Let's assume you are the casino. You need to:

- find a processor you have half a reason to trust will not simply take your money and skip away. Not a trivial task by the way.
- transfer a whack of cash to that processor -- typically an amount equal to 7-10 days worth of payouts -- and wait for it to arrive and be credited to your account. This can take up to a week.
- Keep in mind that if you transfer too little you'll just have to repeat the procedure which will, obviously, increase the amount of money you have in limbo and could very well lose if the processor decides to take the money and run. Or,
- if you transfer too much it will set off alarm bells at the DOJ and you'll almost certainly lose it all and burn the processor to boot. Potential down-side loss here is enormous.
- Assuming the money does get through to the processor and appears in your account (in full) then you have to start the process of getting it to the recipient's account wherever that may be. This is another 2-10 days depending on their account provider.

So there you go, 2-20 days depending on the parties involved, circumstances, luck and so forth.

The bottom line is that it it literally the Wild West out there for the casinos, and the players, in terms of moving your money around. And the reason is because the lawmakers have made it so: they have made it a crime for money to be moved legally so obviously that (a) removes any normal processing procedures from the equation, (b) invites the disreputable types to step in for a piece of the action, and (c) makes anything and everything a crap shoot because of what the DOJ may or may not do next.

The end result, unfortunately, is that you should be thankful you are seeing any money at all. Clearly it takes a pretty ballsy operator to get you anything, never mind in a "timely" fashion.
 

dandan

Seven day suspension for being a PITA
PABinit
Joined
Oct 3, 2011
Location
bris-vegas
No excuse!!! You put money in ... in good faith... you expect to get it back! In a timely fashion... just as fast as they TAKE your money... and give it back ...with NO fees!!!!
 

Balthazar

The Governor
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Aug 14, 2012
Location
Woodbury
Bang on! These days something like the following is the procedure required to get money to a player:
- find a processor you have half a reason to trust will not simply take your money and skip away. Not a trivial task by the way.

So if what these 3rd party processors do is a form of money laundering, it's no surprise that some of them are rogue. They take the money from the casinos and have to "make it legit" before sending it to the players. The fees involved for the casinos must be astronomical. I have questions (I'm a curious fellow) but I guess a public forum isn't a good place to discuss this.

PS: Maybe this thread should be moved to America the beautiful?
 

maxd

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Maybe this thread should be moved to America the beautiful?

To limit visibilty? Don't think ATB is any less visible than this forum. Both require that you be a member and signed on in order to view the thread.

And fwiw I don't think "money laundering" is what the processors are doing. More like making deliveries in a hostile environment, like the old days when guys would take the mail by pony through Indian territory.
 

dandan

Seven day suspension for being a PITA
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So true... I could ... if I had... much ill-gotten booty... then yes I would launder it in a casino
 

Mousey

Ueber Meister Mouse
Joined
Sep 12, 2004
Location
Up$hitCreek
So if what these 3rd party processors do is a form of money laundering, it's no surprise that some of them are rogue. They take the money from the casinos and have to "make it legit" before sending it to the players. The fees involved for the casinos must be astronomical. I have questions (I'm a curious fellow) but I guess a public forum isn't a good place to discuss this.

PS: Maybe this thread should be moved to America the beautiful?

If you're thinking the DOJ doesn't already know first hand how every detail of the processing scenario works.... go up top and do a search for the word Linwood.
 

bigjohn

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 21, 2012
Location
Northeast Coastal USA
So if what these 3rd party processors do is a form of money laundering, it's no surprise that some of them are rogue. They take the money from the casinos and have to "make it legit" before sending it to the players. The fees involved for the casinos must be astronomical. I have questions (I'm a curious fellow) but I guess a public forum isn't a good place to discuss this.

PS: Maybe this thread should be moved to America the beautiful?

I think the watchdogs here in the US know how the processes work but it takes them time figure out who the middlemen are.

The UIGEA forbids US financial institutions from processing transactions they know are associated with on-line gaming. The Feds have to skirt around the main issue because outright outlawing it is a power that was left to the individual States, so if a transaction is 'dressed up' properly it should go through.

There is big difference how much effort different banks put into this. The names of those banks, the names of any processors, or the 'from' info on your check envelope must never be uttered in any forum or anywhere else for that matter.:eek2:
 

Mousey

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Location
Up$hitCreek
I think the watchdogs here in the US know how the processes work but it takes them time figure out who the middlemen are.

The UIGEA forbids US financial institutions from processing transactions they know are associated with on-line gaming. The Feds have to skirt around the main issue because outright outlawing it is a power that was left to the individual States, so if a transaction is 'dressed up' properly it should go through.

There is big difference how much effort different banks put into this. The names of those banks, the names of any processors, or the 'from' info on your check envelope must never be uttered in any forum or anywhere else for that matter.:eek2:

Maybe... we don't want to make it easy for them... but.... do you think the feds don't have people playing (and cashing out) at all the major softwares that accept USA players?
 

bigjohn

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Joined
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Location
Northeast Coastal USA
Maybe... we don't want to make it easy for them... but.... do you think the feds don't have people playing (and cashing out) at all the major softwares that accept USA players?

I wouldn't be surprised if they did although that might bring in issues of entrapment. I don't think it's at the top of their priority list but I'm sure they will grab any 'low hanging fruit'.
 

LRDell

Experienced Member
PABaccred
Joined
Feb 25, 2004
Location
East Coast, USA
Just sayin

It just seems a little self serving, when I know it can be done in one day. When CM asked a casino to settle an issue with me on a PAB, the funds were in my account the next day. Why can that place do it (although I haven't had a regular withdrawal through them yet), and others take weeks.

Thank you for all the input. Bryan - I think your "it's acceptable because that's the way it is" is kind of like saying it's what the market will bear. I have very limited options - my state is even tighter than the US in general so I have virtually no e wallets available. So what you are basically saying is that if I want to play, this is the price.
 

Mousey

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Location
Up$hitCreek
I wouldn't be surprised if they did although that might bring in issues of entrapment. I don't think it's at the top of their priority list but I'm sure they will grab any 'low hanging fruit'.

'entrapment'? The DOJ ran Linwood, processing payouts for the casinos and poker rooms for 2 years.... and they did a darn good job, too... we were paid quite speedily during that short time span... LOL This all came out during the Blue Monday shake down. The feds entrap and extort at the drop of a hat and get away with it. They also had agents play at casinos - part of their 'undercover' operation, ya see.

Post UIGEA processing payouts has been the big white elephant in the living room. No one likes it, no one wants it there, no one likes dealing with the crap, but we can't get rid of it.
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
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Through no fault of their own USA players are already limited to playing at far fewer casinos than previously with a narrow choice of payment methods. Most players accept that there will be delays in receiving payments but the casinos should try to make it hassle-free for them and must not slap them with ludicrous fees such that cannot reasonably be accounted for. To the casual observer it seems like a case of fleecing the hapless lamb so the casino which is an accredited one should at least explain why upfront fees are necessary especially when others like Inetbet and Slotocash dont charge them. Casinos should not give an impression they stand to profit from the introduction of the fees. They should also try to examine ways to speed up their payments to keep up with their rivals to retain this important group of players. If and when online gambling is legalised in the USA these players will not forget in a hurry.
 

maxd

PAB (Complaints) Manager
Staff member
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Location
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It just seems a little self serving, when I know it can be done in one day. When CM asked a casino to settle an issue with me on a PAB, the funds were in my account the next day.

Comparing a special circumstance like that to everyday business is comparing apples and orange sorbet: not the same thing at all.

That said it is quite true that some operators are using the US situation to slow-pay on withdrawals. We flag those situations where we find them and you'd be well advised to avoid the casinos so named, obviously. See the "Not Recommended" item for Lock Casino, for example.

So what you are basically saying is that if I want to play, this is the price.

Yes, under the current circumstances that would be a fair summary of the situation. Was that not made clear by my explanation of where things stand? Or did you just choose not to read it? Seems we've had that problem already recently have we not?
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
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The fact is our government is trying to shut off an activity that they see as immoral and to a large degree they have succeeded but, just like prohibition, all they have really done is drive out the good guys.
Let me correct your minor typo there:
"The fact is our government is trying to shut off an activity that they see as impossible to tax and to a large degree they have succeeded ..."

KK
 

colly

Senior Member
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MM
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Mar 27, 2001
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earth
I can see two sides here- unfotunately for the USA player I can accept that a delay is inevitable due to the governments actions- however there is NO excuse where it is to a "friendly" country. I have also had bankwires take up to 15days (a;though Inetbet's take about 3days) and that is just delays on the casino side- similarly the excuse for neteller to not be instant or at the most 24hours if you work on a we batch payments at the end of the day. Ther is also no excuse for not processing payments on a weekend- especially to ewallets which operate 24/7.

I agree with VWM on this issue- we have all become so accepting through lack of choice or complacency or feeling powerless that we accept this as a standard- it shouldnt be - all times should be in line with the 32red group or inetbet if paying to a non USA jurisdiction- if you are open for deposits and play then you should be open for payouts- while there may be valid reasons on the USA side in other cases it is just delays or a hope that peoople will reverse.

Payment was much faster in years past- reversal times were usually 4hour or at a max 24hours- most casinos would flush (VIP or not) and some used the cancel the deposit methods on cc's.

In terms of customer service this is an industry where service and service times have deteriorated. The only way this will be changed is to vote with your wallets- I try very hard to only play 32red, inet and sloto on weekends and former favourites will get the occasional play on weekends but nowhere near what I used to- I find the temptation to reverse far too strong if I havent got a lot of available funds so the play is almost a waste of time. Even when there is a legitimate reason for not paying on weekends there is NO exscuse not to make the default position of funds not reversible.

Just my 2 cents worth- Reward the casino's that treat you well and cut back on those that delay payments
 
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