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Why is this acceptable in an accredited casino?

Discussion in 'Payment Processing Issues' started by LRDell, Mar 5, 2013.

    Mar 5, 2013
  1. LRDell

    LRDell Experienced Member PABaccred

    Occupation:
    Finance
    Location:
    East Coast, USA
    Bank wires are basically instantaneous transfers from one financial institution to another. There may be a hour or two delay while it goes through the clearinghouse, but always same day. Even if a bank wire is coming from another country, it should be within 1 - 2 days. I know it can happen because in a recently settled dispute with an accredited casino, they wired the agreed amount to my bank and it was there the next day.

    So even if a casino is not in the US, why is it acceptable for a bank wire withdrawal to take "5 to 15 business days" to arrive at my bank. The casino shall remain nameless at this point because I don't have any other issues with them. But with this particular withdrawal it already "got hung up with our intermediary processors and was delayed, but we have sent it again" (read "we are now starting over again with the 5 to 15 days).

    I thought that one of the rules of being an accredited casino was TIMELY payouts. And this time delay is on top of a rediculous $60 up front fee and a warning that intermediary banks might take more out.

    Thoughts? Particulary from CM folks who handle accredidation.
     
  2. Mar 5, 2013
  3. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
    Even if you were located in different countries the wire should take no more than 2 working days provided all the banking info is correct. The fee charged by the clearing house is mandatory but an upfront fee of $60 is unacceptable. OK there are costs involved but I undrstand it should only cost something in the region of $15 and even then it should be somewhat shared between player and casino. In my region the cost of sending a wire to another country is $13USD + $15/25 intermediary fees. Though we should seek an explanation from the casino about the lofty fees and excessively long waiting times for the wires at first glance this does not conform to 'timely payouts'.
     
  4. Mar 5, 2013
  5. dandan

    dandan Seven day suspension for being a PITA webby PABinit

    Occupation:
    retail
    Location:
    bris-vegas
    I started a thread on the same discussion re the ridiculous fees!!!
     
  6. Mar 5, 2013
  7. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    It is acceptable since this is "par for the course" so to speak. If you are in the States - expect delays and them some. If this is unacceptable for you, then don't play. Either that or move to Europe. :p Simple as that.
     
    3 people like this.
  8. Mar 5, 2013
  9. bigjohn

    bigjohn Meister Member MM PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Swimming Pool Serviceman
    Location:
    Northeast Coastal USA
    I think the problem is how much effort the casinos have to go through to get the money to us US players.

    All traces of casino involvement have to be thoroughly rinsed off before it can be sent. I would not be surprised if the payment had to go through multiple processors before being sent to the recipient and each middleman wants a cut.

    It's a little like a mailman who has one house with a fence around it and an angry dog on patrol, you can't base his accreditation on timely deliveries to that one house. Some casinos seem to do better than others for a while until another one of their way points get shut off then they start experiencing delays and fees.

    I don't like to say it but it's probably going to get worse before it get better. The fact is our government is trying to shut off an activity that they see as immoral and to a large degree they have succeeded but, just like prohibition, all they have really done is drive out the good guys.

    Any payment problems we are experiencing with accredited casinos are directly caused by our Government.
     
  10. Mar 5, 2013
  11. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Even here it seems most casinos have reverted to the "middle ages" when it comes to processing withdrawals. One has to remember that this is all electronic processing, no clerks with quill pens writing cheques on parchment, or contacting another department or processor in the chain by carrier pigeon.

    The US aside, with the technology available in 2005 the vast majority of MGS casinos could process a withdrawal in 24-48 hours all the way to a players' eWallet account. Now, 2013 technology allows them to complete the task in twice the time. They are "having a laff" at our expense, but there is an implied cartel in the industry where this is something they won't compete aggressively with one another over bar a small few (32Red for example, and some of the larger high street chains).

    My bank is very security concious when it comes to electronic transactions, yet I can pay an account (even someone else) I have paid before in about 30 seconds, and a completely new recipient in a few minutes, including the text/call containing the one time verification code to unlock the recipient. This is what banks have achieved with 2013 technology over 2005, when such payments took at least 3 days to reflect in the recipient account, one day SLOWER than the average MGS casino to eWallet timescale.

    Players still play in sufficient quantities, so operators not only fail to compete, but regularly add a little here and there to the timescales to see what they can get away with, which currently seems to be 48-72 hours before players start to kick up a fuss.

    If players did kick up a stink, we would soon see movement back towards 24 hours, even less, as the "industry standard". It really needs a few major operators to break ranks and compete aggressively on withdrawal timescales, and the others will soon follow suit.
     
    2 people like this.
  12. Mar 5, 2013
  13. bigjohn

    bigjohn Meister Member MM PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Swimming Pool Serviceman
    Location:
    Northeast Coastal USA
    Agreed there should be virtually no delay in countries that are unrestricted but as Bryan pointed out for players where the government is aggressively fighting these transactions it's a take it or leave it situation. I can get an instant transaction to or from a local business here too.

    By my analogy with the mailman, maybe the mailman gives a neighborhood kid a buck to climb the fence and deliver the mail for him. That works good until the kid gets bitten by the dog. The next kid is gonna want 2 bucks because he knows what happened to the first kid. He might even want his friend to help him relay the delivery for another 2 bucks. So now it's 4 bucks and nobody is in a big hurry to go play with the dog!

    Where these transactions are unrestricted the best method you have for redress is to vote with your wallet.
     
  14. Mar 5, 2013
  15. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    Bang on! These days something like the following is the procedure required by a casino to get money to a player. Let's assume you are the casino. You need to:

    - find a processor you have half a reason to trust will not simply take your money and skip away. Not a trivial task by the way.
    - transfer a whack of cash to that processor -- typically an amount equal to 7-10 days worth of payouts -- and wait for it to arrive and be credited to your account. This can take up to a week.
    - Keep in mind that if you transfer too little you'll just have to repeat the procedure which will, obviously, increase the amount of money you have in limbo and could very well lose if the processor decides to take the money and run. Or,
    - if you transfer too much it will set off alarm bells at the DOJ and you'll almost certainly lose it all and burn the processor to boot. Potential down-side loss here is enormous.
    - Assuming the money does get through to the processor and appears in your account (in full) then you have to start the process of getting it to the recipient's account wherever that may be. This is another 2-10 days depending on their account provider.

    So there you go, 2-20 days depending on the parties involved, circumstances, luck and so forth.

    The bottom line is that it it literally the Wild West out there for the casinos, and the players, in terms of moving your money around. And the reason is because the lawmakers have made it so: they have made it a crime for money to be moved legally so obviously that (a) removes any normal processing procedures from the equation, (b) invites the disreputable types to step in for a piece of the action, and (c) makes anything and everything a crap shoot because of what the DOJ may or may not do next.

    The end result, unfortunately, is that you should be thankful you are seeing any money at all. Clearly it takes a pretty ballsy operator to get you anything, never mind in a "timely" fashion.
     
    8 people like this.
  16. Mar 5, 2013
  17. dandan

    dandan Seven day suspension for being a PITA webby PABinit

    Occupation:
    retail
    Location:
    bris-vegas
    No excuse!!! You put money in ... in good faith... you expect to get it back! In a timely fashion... just as fast as they TAKE your money... and give it back ...with NO fees!!!!
     
  18. Mar 5, 2013
  19. Balthazar

    Balthazar The Governor

    Occupation:
    Leader
    Location:
    Woodbury
    So if what these 3rd party processors do is a form of money laundering, it's no surprise that some of them are rogue. They take the money from the casinos and have to "make it legit" before sending it to the players. The fees involved for the casinos must be astronomical. I have questions (I'm a curious fellow) but I guess a public forum isn't a good place to discuss this.

    PS: Maybe this thread should be moved to America the beautiful?
     
  20. Mar 5, 2013
  21. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    To limit visibilty? Don't think ATB is any less visible than this forum. Both require that you be a member and signed on in order to view the thread.

    And fwiw I don't think "money laundering" is what the processors are doing. More like making deliveries in a hostile environment, like the old days when guys would take the mail by pony through Indian territory.
     
  22. Mar 5, 2013
  23. dandan

    dandan Seven day suspension for being a PITA webby PABinit

    Occupation:
    retail
    Location:
    bris-vegas
    So true... I could ... if I had... much ill-gotten booty... then yes I would launder it in a casino
     
  24. Mar 5, 2013
  25. Mousey

    Mousey Ueber Meister Mouse CAG

    Occupation:
    Pencil Pusher
    Location:
    Up$hitCreek
    If you're thinking the DOJ doesn't already know first hand how every detail of the processing scenario works.... go up top and do a search for the word Linwood.
     
    1 person likes this.
  26. Mar 5, 2013
  27. dandan

    dandan Seven day suspension for being a PITA webby PABinit

    Occupation:
    retail
    Location:
    bris-vegas
    or ill-booten gotty?
     
    1 person likes this.
  28. Mar 5, 2013
  29. dandan

    dandan Seven day suspension for being a PITA webby PABinit

    Occupation:
    retail
    Location:
    bris-vegas
    radar!!!
     
    1 person likes this.
  30. Mar 5, 2013
  31. bigjohn

    bigjohn Meister Member MM PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Swimming Pool Serviceman
    Location:
    Northeast Coastal USA
    I think the watchdogs here in the US know how the processes work but it takes them time figure out who the middlemen are.

    The UIGEA forbids US financial institutions from processing transactions they know are associated with on-line gaming. The Feds have to skirt around the main issue because outright outlawing it is a power that was left to the individual States, so if a transaction is 'dressed up' properly it should go through.

    There is big difference how much effort different banks put into this. The names of those banks, the names of any processors, or the 'from' info on your check envelope must never be uttered in any forum or anywhere else for that matter.:eek2:
     
    2 people like this.
  32. Mar 5, 2013
  33. Mousey

    Mousey Ueber Meister Mouse CAG

    Occupation:
    Pencil Pusher
    Location:
    Up$hitCreek
    Maybe... we don't want to make it easy for them... but.... do you think the feds don't have people playing (and cashing out) at all the major softwares that accept USA players?
     
  34. Mar 5, 2013
  35. bigjohn

    bigjohn Meister Member MM PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Swimming Pool Serviceman
    Location:
    Northeast Coastal USA
    I wouldn't be surprised if they did although that might bring in issues of entrapment. I don't think it's at the top of their priority list but I'm sure they will grab any 'low hanging fruit'.
     
  36. Mar 6, 2013
  37. LRDell

    LRDell Experienced Member PABaccred

    Occupation:
    Finance
    Location:
    East Coast, USA
    Just sayin

    It just seems a little self serving, when I know it can be done in one day. When CM asked a casino to settle an issue with me on a PAB, the funds were in my account the next day. Why can that place do it (although I haven't had a regular withdrawal through them yet), and others take weeks.

    Thank you for all the input. Bryan - I think your "it's acceptable because that's the way it is" is kind of like saying it's what the market will bear. I have very limited options - my state is even tighter than the US in general so I have virtually no e wallets available. So what you are basically saying is that if I want to play, this is the price.
     
  38. Mar 6, 2013
  39. Mousey

    Mousey Ueber Meister Mouse CAG

    Occupation:
    Pencil Pusher
    Location:
    Up$hitCreek
    'entrapment'? The DOJ ran Linwood, processing payouts for the casinos and poker rooms for 2 years.... and they did a darn good job, too... we were paid quite speedily during that short time span... LOL This all came out during the Blue Monday shake down. The feds entrap and extort at the drop of a hat and get away with it. They also had agents play at casinos - part of their 'undercover' operation, ya see.

    Post UIGEA processing payouts has been the big white elephant in the living room. No one likes it, no one wants it there, no one likes dealing with the crap, but we can't get rid of it.
     
    1 person likes this.

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