why i no longer will play online....

hippo925

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Location
so cal
i strictly played rtg because i liked their slots. recently, notoriously bad luck streaks made me wonder how things could be so different since i started playing. i thought, maybe it's just me, you know..... just repeated bad luck streaks as if it wasn't my month.

so i thought i would try to objectively look at my play to see if it was just a misinterpreted view like many of us tend to have when losing. you know, how we tend to think a game is rigged, not random, etc... something to blame because we feel we can't be that unlucky.

so i tried some new sites and some old ones again....

49'ers : deposited 200, got 200 bonus: $2 bets on achilles, finished in 1.5 hours, less than 15% of playthrough completed.

club world casino(new rtg on accredited list): $300 plus 300 bonus, played achilles again... about 3 hours, less than 25% playthough completed.

sci-fi casino: 200 plus 400 bonus, less than 2 hrs, 15% playthough completed. second deposit 250 plus 500 bonus, about 4 hrs, 25% playthough completed.

tired MG, trident lounge: 200 plus 200 bonus, about 5 hrs, different bonus system (released in increments), played avalon... $30 out of the 200 bonus was transferred to cash account so im guessing about 15% playthough met. why does MG software seem more "random" than rtg? ( the reels don't make sense on rtg slots, almost like a predetermined payout with reels picked to match the win)

when i first started playing, i had no troubles meeting wagering requirements at the four casinos i played. now, i wasn't even close to meeting them at all at the four i just tried. i have played rtg slots so much that it is very difficult for me to believe that things aren't different and that i am just "unlucky." i'm sure others have the same "feelings."

with the new law about to go into effect, i thought of what i would do if i had a casino and was thinking in a purely "business" manner. knowing that it may all end soon, why have higher payouts than necessary. wouldn't a casino want to "milk" as much out as possible? what would the repercussions be since the longevity of casinos that cater to U. S. players is highly questionable? if you look at it from a purely business standpoint, it kinda reminds me of a corporation telling it's stockholders to keep their stock and buy more even though the corporate board knows they are heading for financial collapse, doesn't it? how many players are experiencing this extra "bad luck?"

anyway, this site has been great and casinomeister does a great service. good luck to all those who continue online gaming because i really hope that i am wrong about what is going to happen.
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
webmeister
PABnonaccred
CAG
MM
Joined
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Location
Bexhill on sea, England
You should have been visiting Casinomeister more often.
There have been quite a few threads in recent months all saying RTG have done something awful to their slot payouts.
I even started a thread on this myself:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/rtg-reducing-their-slots-payouts.14114/

This 'tweaking' of the odds happened sometime in August as far as I can detect and made RTG slots un-playable as you describe and as I also found out very expensively. :mad:

But there is a very simple solution, say FU RTG and play Crypto's & MG's instead!
(Well, MG's in your case - no Crypto's allowed in USA for the moment).
 

swampwitch

ProfessionalUnderachiever
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Location
Iowa, dammit.
Sorry...but hippo925's experience at any given time could mirror mine...and a lot of other players'. My losing streaks could fill volumes. RTG, MG, Boss....wouldn't matter. And then, once in a very great while, there will come a couple of days where I can do no wrong.
hippo925's post is well though out and I'm not about to...just this once...tell him he's full of it. But I don't believe that Micro and RTG have been slogging the reels to offset what they'll lose if the US goes catty wampus completely on online gambling.
In other words...how was hippo925's win/lose ratio REALLY before Frist got his dirty mitts on the Ports Bill?
 
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Simmo!

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
The biggest problem with playing online, as opposed to at B&M's, I think is "time". In a B&M you go, stay for a while then leave and its more effort to go back. Online is always there and you win one minute but you could be back and playing in minutes, hours or next day.

It requires you to have more structure about your play if you want to avoid overdoing it. You might treat it like a B&M. Like okay, this weekend I'm off to play online, returning to normal life on Monday etc. Easier said than done but with less playing time, the losing sessions are less clearly.

Every casino has a house edge and I believe online casinos offer better odds than B&M's. I don't like the fact that RTG have introduced this "unknown" factor into their software which means casinos can chaage the payouts on some games and it's part of the reason I generally stay clear of RTG. But overall, if i spent as much time in a B&M as I do playing online, Im sure I'd be a helluva lot more down than I am.

But gambling is gambling. It doesn't matter if its online casinos, stocks and shares or lotteries. The odds are in the favour of business and it's up to the punter to decide if they want to dabble and up to the individual to decide who they trust to be fair. There is certainly enough advice online to make those sorts of decisions. You wouldn't gamble on share prices without researching first, and I don't think you should play poker or casinos without researching first - IF you're aim is to win.

I think you're decision is sound in that you will probably save money following a less expensive pastime. Horses for courses and each to their own :)
 

hippo925

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Location
so cal
thank you for your responses. i should clarify that i in no way have enough experience with MG casinos to really have any idea how well they play. in fact, my experience with MG so far hasn't been bad at all. yes, i lost at both casinos that i tried, but it seemed fair and more random to me and i had a fairly good time.

on the other hand, i have a lot of experience with rtg slot games. i did in fact keep up with the forum but at the time, i didn't think it would effect me, lol. i figured it was a few players with a run of bad luck. i can't imagine going to my indian casino to find that they lowered all their slot payouts. Just didn't seem like something a casino would do. a little naive maybe.

simmo brought up a great point that i have also pondered. it's like poker where people think it is not random because of the "weird" hands and crazy bad beats, but really it is more a function of the speed of play and number of hands compared to a B & M casino.

but even with faster play and increased hands, some things are just too improbable. for me, an online poker player getting AA is normal. getting it twice in a row is lucky. three times in a row is amazing. four times... that's kinda weird. five times... what's going on? six times in a row....something's not right. I'm sure you get the point.

is it any different for slot machines over thousands and thousands of spins? i think many of us have a "feel" for the game after playing it a long time.

this may be weird, but the way i thought of it is like this: if an rtg casino offered me $10,000 if i didn't hit a bonus in 1000 spins... how likely would i win that $10,000? well, i would have won $50,000 this last month. try playing cleopatra's gold in fun mode to see if u can do it...it's not easy. now try doing it 5 times in one month....im sure u see my point.

honestly, i really hope i am wrong about the possiblity that onlilne casinos may take a "get them while it lasts" mentality because i really enjoy seeing the screen shots and hearing about your wins.

and thank u all for taking my post seriously. i didn't want to seem like just another "sore loser." i really did put a lot of thought into all this and i appreciate that u all are doing the same.
 

BBKPoker

Dormant Account
PABrogue3
Joined
Dec 5, 2005
Location
Edinburgh, Seattle, Vancouver BC, Auckland
4 Bonuses is also a statistically rather small sample size (yes, I realize you made hundreds of wagers). The bug in their fruit slot for the bonus games is pretty well documented and that is certainly cause for some concern. Personally, I play a few of the reel series video slots. My guilty favorite is Hillbillies, and I'm up about $500ish playing several hundred $2 spins this week.
 

amatrine

Crazy Cat Lady
Joined
Jul 3, 2002
Location
Arizona City, Az
Re

I went through over a grand the last two weeks playing the rtg real series slots.

They are not playing rite allright. Im done with real series games for good.

No fun in them anymore. Bonus rounds are far and few in between. I very rarley went above what I put in. (has been the case as Simmo said for a long time)

They used to be fun to play. I can not remember the last time I hit a bonus round on cleopatra.

The biggest hit I had on real slots in the last 6 months was $120 and it went dead after that. Last year I would hit the bonus feature a few times in a row.
Sometimes getting some really good hits. Now it seems you never hit it more than once, if you do hit it. Its too bad. They were fun to play once.

This is my theory. I think they are having more randoms (though Ive never hit one in five years playing) , but the slots are set at a very low payout, and in the long run paying the randoms is cheaper for the casino and they are making a bigger profit by the low payout.

Ill drive down to the Indian casino, thats smokey and crowded before I ever play a real series game again. At least when I played the machines there sometimes I cane home with a few grand. I have never once done that on a
real series game.

Amatrine
 

Lord_Have_Mercy

Non-Gambler
Joined
Dec 6, 2004
Location
Parts, Unknown
Well I decided to give Club USA CASINO A try yesterday. I deposited $100 and got $100 bonus from them. I played BJ and I kid you not. The dealer got 20 and 21 atleast 20 times out of 35 hands. I then redeposited $350 no bonus. I went to Video Poker (JOB) and didnt hit anything at all. Then I went to their Penguin real Series and lost $195 only 2 bonus round out of 600 spins at (.40 and $1)

Finally went to craps wagered on craps. Point was 8 betted $30 and placed $100 on side bet and $100 on 6. FIRST ROLL WAS A 7 and crapped out.

Afterwards my bankroll was only $75 now and went back to Penguin slots at $2 and $5 and now my account shows .15 cents.
 

me_and_ed

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
CAG
MM
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Location
Vancouver
I have actually requested 49er to close my account, absolutely brutal, not even a chance of hope on 8 different Real Series.
 

hippo925

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Location
so cal
my experience is very simialr to amatrine's. to look at it objectively, i did make some observations (though not scientific) using the auto-play feature (you need something to do when in autoplay, right? lol)

cleopatra's gold is fairly predictable in the sense that the payback is around 60-70% if you don't hit a bonus in any session of 250 spins (playing auto-play repeatedly at $2 bets for 250 spins at a time allows for easy record keeping) in my experience, the bonus hits about once in every 150-200 spins. the average bonus win is about 25 times your bet (so $50 to $60 on a $2 bet.) a bad bonus is about 10 times your bet and a good bonus is 100-120 times your bet. the bonus will yield a re-trigger about once in 5-6 bonuses. obviously, getting the bonus determines the result of your 250 spin session more than anything else. these are things i noted the first 5 months i played.

for the last month and a half i have noticed this: bonus occurs about once every 250-300 spins (as i noted before, i have had 5 sessions where i got no bonus in 1000 spins), significanlty more bonuses paying less than 25 times the bet, obvious abscence of re-triggers, and very few bonuses above 100 times the bet. the most significant observation i made was that if you don't hit a bonus in 250 spins, the payback is about 40-50%. i think this factor was what really got my mind going because it is so obvious when using auto-play.

bbkpoker brought up the fruit slot issue and that is a great example of how players "know" there is something wrong. the whole issue of variable payouts is a scary thought. a "bug" that essentially disables or reduces a bonus round in a game would be a nightmare if it was "reproducible" by a casino.

are rtg casinos trying to build as much profit as possible before online gaming significantly slows? their software seems to point in that direction. it's difficult to believe that with these huge bonuses, how most of them could have anything but very low payouts. i see bigger bonuses coming with casinos determined to keep as much money as possible.

reputable casinos, especially sportsbooks and publically traded corporations, have already excluded U S players. as time goes on, what will remain are smaller, possibly less trustworthy casinos that see an opportunity to take up the slack while it lasts. there will be no incentives to paying out, only taking in. of course, there will always be trustworthy casino owners who will continue to offer a safe and fair place to play, but sadly, their decency will only put them in the spotlight and under more scrutiny. i don't think any casino wants to be the "biggest" anymore.

but trust me, i love slots :lolup: i'll still be checking up on casinomeister and when u guys say it's safe to come back, i'll be there, lol. good luck to all of you. it' s been great.

casinomeister, i hope u never stop what u are doing. things would be 10 times worse if u did.
 

amatrine

Crazy Cat Lady
Joined
Jul 3, 2002
Location
Arizona City, Az
Re

Something I noticed, it almost seems like some of the series slots are running on a repeating course. For instance, I will get 50 spins, and the next 50 will have repeats of 90 percent of the previouse loosing and small win screens rite down to the same symbol. I found it disturbing. Ronin is a good example.
I ran it on auto just for the hell of it at 40 cents per spin so I could get a lot of play and make sure I wasnt imagining things. I felt like I was on a cycle, getting the the same screens over and over again.

I know when something does not seem rite. And this does not. So I wont waste another dime on them. Its just no fun anymore. I will stay with RTG for poker and thats about it.

Amatrine
 

Slotster!

I predict a riot.
Joined
Oct 17, 2004
Location
Location, Location!
Just to throw in a completely non-scientific/random bit of experience... For the first time EVER, I hit a decent win on an RTG slot! $5 bet yielded $860 on the Aladdin slot. First time I've ever done anything half decent at Inetbet.

So there are still some wins to be had I guess?
 

The Watchdog

Dormant account
Joined
May 5, 2006
Location
Costa Rica
....

If you mostly play slot machines that is normal...

What did you expect? Hitting a Jackpot on all of them?

Slot machines are not easy, as a matter of fact they are impossible...

You want to improve your requirements? Play 3card, Pai Gow or Video Poker (if allowed by the casino)
 

hippo925

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Location
so cal
when i did try MG slots, i did notice they are quite a bit different from rtg slots. i don't know why, but MG slots do seem like they are more random. rtg on the other does seem to repeat patterns not only of symbol displays, but also of patterns of wins/loses. i may be wrong of course, but rtg slots play as if there is a "pool" of money from players that is randomly re-distributed after the casino takes a guaranteed percentage. rather than the reels determining the amount of a win, it seems a win determines the display of reels. the problem with that would be higher bets would yield a relatively lower payout since there may not be enough money in the "pool." that would explain why larger bets seem to have longer "bad luck" streaks or smaller wins. also, some have observed that higher bets might get the random jackpot more often.

too often have i gotten a good bonus at $1 or $2 only to see that $5 or $10 bets yielded "similar" bonus wins even though the bet is much higher.

this would certainly be a more "guaranteed" method of assuring the house hold percentage in large AND small samples. instead of relying on the statistical probabilities over a long period of time, a casino can avoid statistical variations by using this "pool" method to re-distribute funds.

an example would be blackjack. the house profits from the inherit probalbilites of the game itself. but what if a casino relied on a "pool" method to avoid large variations. a player's large bet blackack would be "replaced" by software to a bust. other players with smaller bets could still win and in a wierd way it would still be random. at times, many small betters would lose so the large bet could win. so instead of relying on the randomness of the game itself, funds would be re-distributed while guaranteeing a house hold. still random, but not what people would expect when playing the game. just a thought...

on another note, if this discussion can in any way have an effect on how rtg and its casinos manages its software, it will show that they take player's concerns seriously. if people start winning more and having more fun for their dollar i'll be delighted.
 

hippo925

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Location
so cal
hi watchdog,

i agree with you, slots are impossible and should, for the most part, only be played for its entertainment value. i think most people realize this. to be honest, my concerns have little to do with hitting another jackpot or winning a lot of money. i have been playing slots for years at B&M casinos and win or lose, what i expect is value for my dollar and a fair gaming environment.

if money was my only concern, i would continue to play poker. my mind seems to have a deep understanding of that game.

my question to you is: the whole fiasco with the fruit slot on rtg software and the english harbor incident... was that normal? i believe if people didn't raise awareness of those issues, very little would have been done.

i think that is the whole point of this kind of forum because issues that come up repeatedly could signal a problem. if the end result is that rtg slots start to play better for others and they can play longer with more enjoyment...hey, that's all good. maybe i'm just hoping to make a difference like a lot of the people on this forum.

oh, and i agree with you. video poker is by far the only electronic game where you can play for fun AND money(assuming one understands the game well.) but i think the best bet is always poker. it easily offsets my slot losses.
 

silkprint

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 10, 2003
Location
Mass
I have been playing exclusively at Inetbet for my RTG fix but honestly can't just keep depositing with no chance of a cashout . I did withdraw 300 a few weeks ago but before that not for a while . I am going to have to give RTG break for while too.
 

amatrine

Crazy Cat Lady
Joined
Jul 3, 2002
Location
Arizona City, Az
Re

I never expect to hit the random. I do epect to get some play time though on a fair machine. Im just stating the obviouse change in the programming.

If it was a couple sessions, I would say bad luck. But I play a few times a week, for many years. I can see a difference in the slot patterns, the payoffs,
and the amount of bonus rounds.

Im not mentioning any rtg's name because they seem to play the same everywhere these days.

I also agree on the shark casino thing, with the 200 bonus. I took it and
went to real series, and never got a bonus round on any game.

I went through 1,500 of my own money this last two weeks, and probably got a total of 5 bonus rounds, the largest was $120 I think, on Achilles. Then it went dead.

Just last year, I could play hours on ronin for $50. Sometimes hitting $600 on a dollar bet because of the multiple bonus rounds. They all seem to play the same way, with a siminar pattern. I will get down $50 then hit 20 then down another 50 and hit 20, and it will go on like this.

Id be stupid to play them anymore, when I get a fair game 20 miles down the road.

Like I said, rtg is still good for the video poker. I hit another royal yesterday at inet, though I didnt find the cashout button. Owell,lol I had fun.

Ama
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Bad Runs

I have just had bad runs in 5 consecutive MG sessions, the play was not just bad, it was hopelessly negative, with "dead" hand after "dead" hand on all the card games. Where a dealer was involved, they were getting completely the opposite, many good hands and all 4 of the truly great ones that showed up.
Before this I had one good win at Ladies Nite at a Casino Rewards casino (they will probably pay up as I am Elite VIP now), followed by a great run at Intercasino (sadly, in dollars).
I managed to nurse 200 out of All Slots, but I am STILL down a fair bit this week. Luckily, I had decent runs last week to cushion the blow.

The MG casinos I had bad luck at are showing slot payouts (PWC Figures) down to 92% to 93% - this is damn low for a months worth, something must be afoot.
If RTG slots are showing repeating reel patterns to the extent of 90% of the previous 50 then this is damning indeed. They will be pressed to come clean about this, as clearly that is so improbable that any success in replicating the result is worthy of posting.
If they are using the pool method they are in breach of the rules of randomness, as this would imply that results of previous spins, even by other players, are governing the results in the base game, and not just building progressive pots.
 

rma20

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 9, 2006
Location
Earth
I totally agree about RTG. I play at Bodog. But I do have to say I have had some decent hits lately. I realize it is gambling...but it is odd how bad everyone is doing.

But one thing I noticed was I don't continue to play the game for hundreds of spins. Ok to explain-I usually have good luck on the game Sunken treasure. I will play it and then when I do hit the bonus I exit out. And then re-enter the game. I find it will hit the bonus sooner than if I hit the bonus and just keep spinning over and over again to hit the bonus. I hope that made sense. And honestly proably doesn't *really* change anything. And I for sure stop playing if after 25-30 spins if its hitting nothing.

But overall I do have the worse luck with RTG.
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
webmeister
PABnonaccred
CAG
MM
Joined
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Location
Bexhill on sea, England
I have noticed the same things.
I also notice the affiliates keep defending the casino's actions.:thumbsup:
Where? Or are you just trying to derail the thread?
I haven't see any either. I have a clear warning about RTG slots on my homepage.
(I haven't totally dumped my RTG's yet, as not everyone is a slots player).

What I do find interesting is that I have not seen ANY of the RTG casino managers who regularly visit this site, say a single word in denial that RTG have changed something.

In fact, their silence is deafening....
 

silcnlayc

Just one more spin pleez!
PABaccred
PABnonaccred
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Location
Left Hungary
In fact, their silence is deafening....
My husband just played $200 for less than 20 minutes at 1-2 dollars a spin and hit nothing at an RTG casino..I played right behind him at ANOTHER RTG casino for another $200 and the same happened with me..I busted out in less than 15 minutes..at $2 a spin..no bonus spins..nothing..coincidence..I think not..

Somehow, the software has been changed for I used to get bonus rounds on every game I played at least once in less than 50 spins....now, the bonus rounds are almost non existant..they cannot say that nothing has changed, for the proof is in the pudding (or is it the spins? :D )
 

Lord_Have_Mercy

Non-Gambler
Joined
Dec 6, 2004
Location
Parts, Unknown
I did the same thing yesterday at Shark Casino took the $200 bonus offer ($400 total) and played nothing but Pengiun Slot and JOB. Got only 2 bonus rounds at $2 a spin and the biggest was $38. I am finished with RTG. I went to MG and got everything back except for $175 from the last 2 days.
 
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clubworld

Rogue casino operator
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Location
UK
Hi

I can deny any changes have occurred as I am sure many other RTG operators can too, although I am obviously not in a position to speak on their behalf.

We honestly have not noticed any difference in the payouts and nothing has been changed. People are still hitting random jackpots and winning from the regular games and we had a progressive jackpot winner last week so they are paying out as well.

In the time we have been with RTG we have had only one problem which was quickly rectified. We have had no cause for concern in the way the games payout aside from that.

Hope the silence has been broken to your liking.

Regards

Jason

ClubWorldCasinos.com
 

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