Why do....

Chill

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 12, 2004
Location
Norway
MG casinos totally change the payout % every time the heat is turned up? Oh and before you come with the "millions of spins to see payout %", I dont care about that. Having played for 5-6 years I see the pattern, every time I have built up maybe a 2-3k win and go flat out I get smacked on the fingers. The games should act exactly the same at $100 as at $10 spins but they don't.
Anyone else come to the same conclusion? I myself find it almost as rogue behavior by the software!
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
MG casinos totally change the payout % every time the heat is turned up? Oh and before you come with the "millions of spins to see payout %", I dont care about that. Having played for 5-6 years I see the pattern, every time I have built up maybe a 2-3k win and go flat out I get smacked on the fingers. The games should act exactly the same at $100 as at $10 spins but they don't.
Anyone else come to the same conclusion? I myself find it almost as rogue behavior by the software!

Yes, I often feel that there is this kind of "envelope" parameter that artifitially enhances the streakiness of the games. It often seems that the big wins are more likely at lower stakes.
I had a spell earlier where I played many spins on Thunderstruck for a regular slot tournament. I was staking between 0.09 and 0.54 per spin, and managed a DOZEN wins of the elusive 5 rams in a short space of time. My thread did indeed raise suspisions in the minds of a few posters that there was "something odd" going on.
I have also learned that, contrary to popular belief, some of the early 5 reel video slots have weighted reels. If this weighting is on the newer slots, but more subtle, it could be used to generate these "patterns" if the weights are adjusted to enhance streakiness.
There does not seem to be a problem with meeting long term percentage expectations, but there seem to be long losing and winning spells on these slots, and not always due to the variance of big wins.
The one pattern that stands out to me is how the free spin scatters just seem to dry up for several hundred spins, which coincides with a long run of many hundreds of spins before the next bonus round. Then, at other times, the scatters are all over the place, and bonus rounds hit frequently, even if they are crap.
I have noticed another pattern on 5 Reel Drive, now known to be weighted, where it has this occasional spell of around 30 naked spins with a set of scatters roughly mid way, whereas most of the time there are small wins about every other spin - to me, it looks like the kind of thing UK Fruit Machines do, play reasonably for a while, then go into a 10 - 20 "suck" without a single win, before returning to allow frequent feature entry and minor wins. UK Fruit Machines are, of course, not random but controlled to a set percentage and cycle.
 

steinhaug

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
Norway
Yes, I have noticed this lots of times. Being a software developer you usually have an eye for patterns, however in this forum you get slapped in the face with chaos theory and law of big numbers I know.

Start loosing $2000 fast, go low in whatever game you want and voila you will get a great win! This happends so often it's no random - random my ass! Also, when the casino goes tight - did you notice all slots go bad? And when its "hot" you win wherever you play? This also is very strange to me, since it's supposedly 160+ games in there? The old 160 skins on 1 game engine versus 160 unique games.

And also - getting big wins on high stakes? Hmmm... I do not think so! Sure I have had a few, but then again I not that many that I feel lucky. Ive done some 1000+ spins on Ladies night on $45, some 1000+ on $25 on harveys. First time I won around 2500 on 25 spins with 25 wagering, and gotten the feature maby 5 more times all with crappy crappy payout, below 500.

Anyway, clumsy post here - just wanted to state that my 5-6 years of experience online gambling - I totally agree with you, something is really going on here. (it's probably doing the same on landbased casinoes aswell, we just don't get to see the machine all day, or download the playcheck data to analyze it)

It's so much money in this franchise, that sure they will screw us over. We would probably do the same. Sure they wouldnt loose in a perfect random world anyway, but why take the chance when you can avoid it...

Oh well, back to my coffe!
 

1819

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 25, 2006
Location
ny,nj,fla
MG casinos totally change the payout % every time the heat is turned up? Oh and before you come with the "millions of spins to see payout %", I dont care about that. Having played for 5-6 years I see the pattern, every time I have built up maybe a 2-3k win and go flat out I get smacked on the fingers. The games should act exactly the same at $100 as at $10 spins but they don't.
Anyone else come to the same conclusion? I myself find it almost as rogue behavior by the software!

simply a case of slot players staying at the dance too long. you can not win at slots in the long run. we all know that. they are a casinos bread and butter. if you truley see a pattern, that takes your money back after getting up 2-3k, then it would work in your favor. stop playing when you are up 2-3k and you will always be a winner. then repeat next day. i dont understand people who do well then, when it gets cold, wonder where the money went. not at all knocking you chill but the question comes up alot. at a b&m casino it is easier to change games or walk away. in your living room it is much easier to play for 12 hours. exactly what online casinos are counting on.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
The problem is that the "patterns" do not seem to affect the long term payout, so you will still see 95% in the long term. What they do is enhance the streakiness of the games. If they played uniformly, they would be boring, streakiness adds to the excitement by providing a great winning session that encourages further play. This is a psycological trick, and has been used here in the UK since the 1970's on our "Fruit Machines" when the internal chips became good enough to support slot "cycles". Many UK fruit machines also use the "heartstopper" to make players believe they are getting many near misses. They were also found by the regulators to be "cheating", by deliberately creating a "enhanced" situation on the player's last credit to encourage them to insert another coin to play it out - this was against the rules, and they were told off - but they still did it thinking they could get away with it.
Microgaming have been found out "cheating" on both the Video Poker double game AND the older 5 reel video slots. This "cheating" does not affect the long term payout, but it DOES deceive the player as they are not playing the game they believe they are from what is displayed in front of them.

The VP Double game is predetermined, and the player has NO influence on the outcome, despite having a choice of 4 cards.
The old video slots have weighted reels, hence there will be more "near misses" than by chance on the highest wins. They behave more like three reel slots. Unlike the VP example, there IS a problem, as if players bet on less than the maximum number of lines on these weighted video slots, the long term payout IS affected, and it has been worked out that it can be depressed to 90% from 95% or so, which is NOT the case with random video slots, where playing fewer lines has no effect on the overall payout.

I suspect this goes beyond the old slots. I have seen a pattern on Cabin Fever. You can get the "sun" symbol almost every spin somewhere on that reel at times, yet at other times it hardly shows itself in hundreds of spins. I can't see how this can be the behaviour if each reel stop were equally likely, and completely independent of the last, for each new spin. I suspect the same is true of the Thunderstuck clones, but is harder to spot clearly as any three scatters triggers the bonus, not just a pair on two specific reels as with Cabin Fever & clones.
 
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