Whitebet Locked My Account

Probably just as well I didn't win anything on the Whitebet welcome bonus that I was told i could take even though I'd already taken one at Redbet. I kept a record of my conversation with CS-

Support Niklas:
Welcome to our LiveChat support. I'm happy to assist you in either English or Swedish.
13:36
Support Niklas:
Hi!

(I asked if I had an account at Whitebet, but this didn't copy over for some reason)

13:36
Support Niklas:
Sure I will have a look =)
13:36
:
thanks
13:37
Support Niklas:
No you only have one account at our sister site Redbet.
13:37
:
ok, can I join Whitebet therefore? And if so are there any welcome bonuses?
13:38
Support Niklas:
Yes you can join =) There is not any no deposit bonus I am afraid but we do not have a welcome bonus you may use. Code: wbwelcome40 will give you 100% up to €100 and 40 spins in the Wish Master slot
13:39
Support Niklas:
we do have I meant =)
13:39
:
ok thanks, what is the wagering required and maximum bet while the bonus is active?
13:40
Support Niklas:
Its 40x wagering on winnings from spins and the bonus money. Maximum bet is €5 and you can not play on table games like Black Jack or Roulette while wagering. You can play jackpot games like Mega Fortune, however that does not count towards the wagering.
13:41
:
so its bonus x 40 wagering?
13:41
Support Niklas:
Yes
 
If a regulated UK utility provider screws up in a similar manner, they have to make a statutory payment to the customer, regardless of any mitigating circumstances, even an "honest mistake" by a member of staff.

Let me just pitch in as someone who works for a uk regulated casino, the terms and conditions far out-weigh human error, the casino i work for would simply hide behind them no matter what a player has been told, they "might" as a good will gesture give the extra 10 euro in this players current problem, but id say 95% of the time they wouldn't, unless your classed as a vip or a "good player" in which case wed give you the 110 outright and apologize like you've never seen.
 
Let me just pitch in as someone who works for a uk regulated casino, the terms and conditions far out-weigh human error, the casino i work for would simply hide behind them no matter what a player has been told, they "might" as a good will gesture give the extra 10 euro in this players current problem, but id say 95% of the time they wouldn't, unless your classed as a vip or a "good player" in which case wed give you the 110 outright and apologize like you've never seen.

This is the usual starting point for any business, the legality only bothers a business if they feel the customer actually knows their rights and how to make life difficult for them. This is why so often a marathon 3 month battle with a utility suddenly gets resolved in a few seconds once it appears on BBC Watchdog, or a well respected newspaper help column.

Terms and conditions have to be obeyed by the business that wrote them, as well as the customer, and when it comes to selling, anything you are told by a representative of the company automatically becomes part of the terms and conditions for that sale, no matter what the business might think it has covered. This is why customers are told to get such agreements in writing, rather than trusting the sales rep to actually honour what they said. A chat log would count as "in writing", as would an email. A recorded phone conversation also counts, and companies often record all calls to their sales lines in case of a subsequent dispute over what was said.

Rogue casinos are well known for making promises over the phone, and then reneging once the deposit is in, and denying all knowledge of even the call, let alone the promises. CM advice is to end such a conversation by asking the agent to send you an email detailing what was said and agreed.

The big scandals involving the banks have arisen because they have used the attitude above to suppress having to make good for their mistakes, and eventually something breaks, and the truth gets out, and the regulators pounce. Many of the "mistakes" even turned out to be deliberate, designed to make illegitimate profits from knowingly selling dud and unsuitable products to customers in the hope that their customers were "too dumb to notice".

They were trying the scam on me for many years, long before the major PPI scandal broke. It was abundantly clear even to me that the product was completely useless to me, and would never pay out due to it's terms and conditions, but despite this, every bank and card provider tried to cajole me into signing up, only stopping once the regulator started mentioning the possibility that something was amiss.

Even Amazon pulled a stunt on me during this Christmas period, which I now have to unravel. They changed the way you get past the Prime signup when checking out, and there was no way forward that didn't end up with me becoming signed up for their "free trial", which is not so "free" if you forget about it as it doesn't simply expire, it auto converts into an annual subscription, and Amazon have a policy of always keeping your payment details so they can just take the money as they see fit (rather naughty, and I would be surprised if it's even legal under UK law).
 
This is the usual starting point for any business, the legality only bothers a business if they feel the customer actually knows their rights and how to make life difficult for them. This is why so often a marathon 3 month battle with a utility suddenly gets resolved in a few seconds once it appears on BBC Watchdog, or a well respected newspaper help column.

Terms and conditions have to be obeyed by the business that wrote them, as well as the customer, and when it comes to selling, anything you are told by a representative of the company automatically becomes part of the terms and conditions for that sale, no matter what the business might think it has covered. This is why customers are told to get such agreements in writing, rather than trusting the sales rep to actually honour what they said. A chat log would count as "in writing", as would an email. A recorded phone conversation also counts, and companies often record all calls to their sales lines in case of a subsequent dispute over what was said.

Rogue casinos are well known for making promises over the phone, and then reneging once the deposit is in, and denying all knowledge of even the call, let alone the promises. CM advice is to end such a conversation by asking the agent to send you an email detailing what was said and agreed.

The big scandals involving the banks have arisen because they have used the attitude above to suppress having to make good for their mistakes, and eventually something breaks, and the truth gets out, and the regulators pounce. Many of the "mistakes" even turned out to be deliberate, designed to make illegitimate profits from knowingly selling dud and unsuitable products to customers in the hope that their customers were "too dumb to notice".

They were trying the scam on me for many years, long before the major PPI scandal broke. It was abundantly clear even to me that the product was completely useless to me, and would never pay out due to it's terms and conditions, but despite this, every bank and card provider tried to cajole me into signing up, only stopping once the regulator started mentioning the possibility that something was amiss.

Even Amazon pulled a stunt on me during this Christmas period, which I now have to unravel. They changed the way you get past the Prime signup when checking out, and there was no way forward that didn't end up with me becoming signed up for their "free trial", which is not so "free" if you forget about it as it doesn't simply expire, it auto converts into an annual subscription, and Amazon have a policy of always keeping your payment details so they can just take the money as they see fit (rather naughty, and I would be surprised if it's even legal under UK law).

Everyone of our phone calls is recorded, And promptly deleted after 2 weeks, our email response time is 24 hours and is scripted, our live chat is, well, live chat and therefore could not be used as evidence imo. While i agree with you that an employee representing a company should be held accountable for what said employee has said, it just doesn't work like that. And that's mainly because the vast majority of people are not going to put hours into trying to get compensation or a resolution, the amount of times ive been told on the phone "im taking x to court over this" is laughable, ill give you a figure now, ive worked at this certain online casino for little over 5 months, ive seen thousands of players accounts both good and bad, in that time i have seen a total of 1 refund, 1. And that was to a player who we had just voided £36,000 worth of withdrawals, we refunded his £150 deposit and banned his account. Bare in mind i dont work for a casinomeister accredited casino, they had never been in a bbf, and i know full well they would never pass it, that said even at the most respected casinos, you have to account for human error.
 
Everyone of our phone calls is recorded, And promptly deleted after 2 weeks, our email response time is 24 hours and is scripted, our live chat is, well, live chat and therefore could not be used as evidence imo. While i agree with you that an employee representing a company should be held accountable for what said employee has said, it just doesn't work like that. And that's mainly because the vast majority of people are not going to put hours into trying to get compensation or a resolution, the amount of times ive been told on the phone "im taking x to court over this" is laughable, ill give you a figure now, ive worked at this certain online casino for little over 5 months, ive seen thousands of players accounts both good and bad, in that time i have seen a total of 1 refund, 1. And that was to a player who we had just voided £36,000 worth of withdrawals, we refunded his £150 deposit and banned his account. Bare in mind i dont work for a casinomeister accredited casino, they had never been in a bbf, and i know full well they would never pass it, that said even at the most respected casinos, you have to account for human error.

This is why many businesses feel they can get away with virtually anything, and why they often do. This is the main reason we have regulators, even though we have a perfectly good legal system that more or less does the same job, and would probably do an even better job when it comes to an individual getting redress as the last thing a company wants to see is a legal precedent being set against them in court. This is what the banks were so damn scared of in the initial scandal of bank charges. They held their ground, but as soon as the threats took the form of a court hearing summons landing on their desk they were willing to cave in to giving whatever it took to make the customer agree to settle out of court.

Casinos get away with it due to the patchy nature of regulation, which makes it much harder to take meaningful legal action, especially over smaller amounts.

It's the behaviour and "we can get away with it" attitude of the online casino industry that has caused the usually friendly UK to become so "hostile" a market that many have simply pulled out. The government succeeded in it's argument that the old regime where regulation of UK customer disputes took place offshore, and under a different legal system, did not provide a sufficient level of consumer protection. The government then saw this as an opportunity to tax the offshore based industry for the first time.

Those that remain in the UK may well find that what they are used to doing ends up falling foul of UK laws, more especially civil law as regards consumer rights.
 
So, the live chat gave me this update last night:

00:21 Support Hjalmar: Welcome to our LiveChat support. I'm happy to assist you in either English or Swedish.
00:21 Support Hjalmar: Hello Tom, how may I help you? =)
00:21 Tom: Hey, can you update me regarding what is happening with my account/deposit etc?
00:21 Support Hjalmar: I will check!
00:23 Support Hjalmar: On the 29/Dec you choosed to self exclude your account for one month
00:23 Tom: Yes, I know all this.
00:24 Tom: Just want to know if the money is being sent back to my card or if the bonus is being left until the 29th?
00:24 Support Hjalmar: Your whitebet account will be reopened at the same time
00:24 Support Hjalmar: You can have your money sent back to your bank if you want but then you have to send in some documents. Otherwise you can wait.. Which bonus did you attend to use?
00:25 Tom: It was the welcome bonus, this morning Robin was checking the details regarding what was happening.
00:26 Support Hjalmar: ah okay, that bonus will still be active when your account is reopene
00:26 Support Hjalmar: reopened
00:26 Tom: Ok, and that bonus will not be voided?
00:26 Tom: As Robin was unsure if I was allowed to accept that welcome bonus as I had previously accepted it on RedBet.
00:27 Support Hjalmar: I see now that you will not be able to use that bonus anyway since you have use the welcome bonus at Redbet
00:27 Tom: Right.
00:28 Support Hjalmar: Okay so if you want to do a manual payout before the 29th, you have to send in a print screen of your bank account connected to your card and also a copy of your passport/ID. Send the documents to ID@whitebet.com and ask for a manual payout
00:29 Tom: Ok, and that will be a payout of the 50 I deposited?
00:29 Tom: Which part of the bank account do you need to see, im not sending all my transactions or my total balance or anything.
00:30 Tom: I can send in a front and back copy of the card and a drivers license, is this ok?
00:30 Support Hjalmar: No just so we can see your account number and full name. I can not promise you will get exactly the amount of 50 euro. The security department might charge a fee on the withdrawal but that decision will be taken from them
00:31 Tom: This is crazy!
00:31 Support Hjalmar: yes that is okay (with the drivers license)
00:31 Tom: Your support were the ones that told me to do all this and now your getting me to run around getting ID and charging fees.
00:31 Support Hjalmar: What did we tell you before you mean?
00:32 Tom: Before I joined here I came to the chat support and asked all of these questions to you.
00:32 Tom: I asked if I was allowed an account and explained I was on a break at RedBet
00:32 Tom: I told you that I had already taken a bonus at RedBet
00:32 Tom: Christoffer told me it was perfectly fine to open an account and take the bonus.
00:32 Support Hjalmar: Really??!
00:32 Tom: I did so, and now I have been given awful treatment.
00:32 Support Hjalmar: hmm okay..
00:33 Tom: Please review my recent chat logs with yourselves.
00:36 Support Hjalmar: Okay, so the best way I know to solve this now is that I will put a note on your account saying that you where incorrectly informed and that you should get the total amount that you deposited! But unfortunately you still need to send in the documents... I'm really sorry that you have been mislead like this. Christoffer is one of the newer support although that should be no excuse at all! But for you to know the reason why this has happened
00:38 Tom: Its pretty shocking treatment. Every stage I have been told no. I have been a long term loyal customer at RedBet for years and have spread word around for your casino.
00:38 Tom: To now be treated like this is somewhat shocking.
00:39 Tom: Are you happy with a copy of a drivers license and front/back of the card?
00:39 Tom: As I already have these documents so it is not much trouble to send them.
00:39 Support Hjalmar: Yes!
00:40 Tom: Ok, and can you guarantee im going to get 50 euros and not be charged a fee on this?
00:40 Support Hjalmar: Yes, I have put a note on your account so that the security department will not take any fee for the withdrawal
00:41 Tom: Ok, thanks. You have been much more helpful than the other support hosts.
00:41 Support Hjalmar: Thank you nice to hear!
00:42 Support Hjalmar: You didn't got anytime to play with the bonus right?
00:42 Tom: Yeah, I played for around an hour.
00:42 Support Hjalmar: okay
00:43 Tom: I never went low enough to hit the bonus amount though.
00:43 Tom: Pretty sure I stayed above 70 euros always.
00:44 Tom: And I was at around 110 just before it locked.
00:44 Support Hjalmar: Okay, everything looks fine. You now have 50 euro on your account that you will get back to your bank. So send the documents and the security department will handle the process.
00:44 Tom: Sent them a few moments ago.
00:45 Tom: Should be with you now.
00:46 Support Hjalmar: Which topic did you type for the mail?
00:46 Tom: verification Documents was the subject.
00:46 Support Hjalmar: Yes it is there
00:48 Support Hjalmar: Is there anything else I can help you with or something you are wondering about?
00:49 Tom: Will I receive an email once the withdrawal has been processed or should I check back to this chat tomorrow?
00:52 Support Hjalmar: You will receive an E-mail as soon as the security department has looked in to the matter. Since they handle all manual payouts I'm not exactly sure how the process is handled.
00:52 Tom: Ok, no problem. Thank you for you're help. They should just keep you on support and fire the other guys. Have a good evening.
00:54 Support Hjalmar: No problem Tom. Again I apologize for the misleading information you have been given. Haha yes I will see what I can do about that! Thank you and have a nice evening you too! =)
00:54 Tom: Bye for now!
00:54 Support Hjalmar: Bye!

And then today I receive this email:

Dear Mr. Starkie,

Thank you for your email.
We have now verified you and your Visa card!
However, please be informed that we also need the following in order to pay back the funds;
- A screenshot from your bank account showing your name and bank account number, or a copy of a bank statement/bank draft showing the equivalent. It also has to show your full IBAN, swift and bic details

We look forward to hear from you again, and we sincerely apologize for the inconvenience caused ..

Kind regards,
Maria

Whitebet Security Department

This is so crazy considering the circumstances. I am simply amazed at this group and cannot believe I played at RedBet for so long!

- T
 
Are you not verified at Redbet already?
They need to do something now to let everybody knows the rules and that whatever have been told from support earlier is no longer valid.
Not thinking just of this case now but Suomikala who got his winnings void. It's been too much.

I hope I don't get to see another thread about them again for awhile. I'm disappointed.
 
Are you not verified at Redbet already?
They need to do something now to let everybody knows the rules and that whatever have been told from support earlier is no longer valid.
Not thinking just of this case now but Suomikala who got his winnings void. It's been too much.

I hope I don't get to see another thread about them again for awhile. I'm disappointed.

I have been verified at RedBet for years. This verification is for WhiteBet to get the 50 euros back out of the account which they duped me into depositing. If they charge a fee on it I am going to go full retard, I swear.

- T
 
I have been verified at RedBet for years. This verification is for WhiteBet to get the 50 euros back out of the account which they duped me into depositing. If they charge a fee on it I am going to go full retard, I swear.

- T

They could take the papers from Redbet to Whitebet. Hm..

Don't go self exclude the next time if you're not intend to stay away then. I normally just ask them to close my account, and that way I can open it whenever I want to.
 
I have been verified at RedBet for years. This verification is for WhiteBet to get the 50 euros back out of the account which they duped me into depositing. If they charge a fee on it I am going to go full retard, I swear.

- T

Dont go full retard........

Check it out. Dustin Hoffman, 'Rain Man,' look retarded, act retarded, not retarded. Counted toothpicks, cheated cards. Autistic, sho'. Not retarded. You know Tom Hanks, 'Forrest Gump.' Slow, yes. Retarded, maybe. Braces on his legs. But he charmed the pants off Nixon and won a ping-pong competition. That ain't retarded. Peter Sellers, "Being There." Infantile, yes. Retarded, no. You went full retard, man. Never go full retard. You don't buy that? Ask Sean Penn, 2001, "I Am Sam." Remember? Went full retard, went home empty handed... :D one of the best movies ever
 
You should have received another e-mail from the payments department now. You're unfortunately not verified on Redbet. Otherwise, as already stated, those documents would have been valid on Whitebet too. We just need you to simply confirm your details so we can payout the deposit.

And we will definitely not put a fee on this payout. I believe that's more or less standard for support agents to inform about when discussing manual payouts.

Again we can only apologise for the inconvenience and frustration caused by this mistake. If you need any further information or assistance just let me know.
 
Many have been searching in the terms & conditions for this rule without success. If you guys can't find it it's obviously not clear enough.

All three brands together are referred to as "The gaming operator", and it's explained in the T&C's that the meaning of "The gaming operator" is the three brands together. We'll re-write the terms to make it clear.
 
You should have received another e-mail from the payments department now. You're unfortunately not verified on Redbet. Otherwise, as already stated, those documents would have been valid on Whitebet too. We just need you to simply confirm your details so we can payout the deposit.

And we will definitely not put a fee on this payout. I believe that's more or less standard for support agents to inform about when discussing manual payouts.

Again we can only apologise for the inconvenience and frustration caused by this mistake. If you need any further information or assistance just let me know.

I am curious as to why the player is being asked for a bank statement when this is a back-to-card payment? I have received such back-to-card payments before, and all that is needed is an ID document, utility bill, and copy of back and front of the card. Given that the whole saga started with incorrect advice from CS, compounding the problem further rather than simply correcting the error is bound to make the player "madder" than they already are over the issue.
 
Many have been searching in the terms & conditions for this rule without success. If you guys can't find it it's obviously not clear enough.

All three brands together are referred to as "The gaming operator", and it's explained in the T&C's that the meaning of "The gaming operator" is the three brands together. We'll re-write the terms to make it clear.

This should be made clear in the BONUS terms, as this is where new players will be looking for rules relating to the bonus. Cross marketing can also be part of the problem, and has been in other cases where operators have implemented such a rule. Affiliates also benefit from signing up a player at all three brands more than they do at one, so some are likely to leave out pertinent information in their reviews that might deter captured traffic from coming back to their other site to sign up at the other two.

I have found the current version:-

1.1 Bonnier Gaming Malta Ltd, company registration number C 38582, 85 St John Street, Valletta, Malta (the “Gaming Operator”) provides games at the web-site www.redbet.com (the “Site”) and it is one of the companies included in the Albert Bonnier AB group of companies (herein jointly referred to as the “Bonnier Group”). The Gaming Operator offer games on multiple brands, including, but not limited to, www.Redbet.com, www.Whitebet.com and www.Heypoker.com. The Terms of Use are applicable in relation to the use of the Site only and not in relation to use of any other sites provided by the Gaming Operator or any other entity within the Bonnier Group.

It's probably getting missed as it's more the "glossary", rather than the actual terms, defining the legal meaning of the various terms. It's also worded to hedge bets, for example using "including, but not limited to", rather than saying "these three brands (are connected as far as the terms are concerned). The "not limited to" also means that players cannot be clear from this alone that the bonus provisions apply ONLY to these three, and they don't have to watch their backs at other sites that have not been named in case they get stung.

Although 1.3 is the start of terms that are relevant to the player, such as minimum age, legal jurisdiction, etc, it is written in verbose legalese, not concise plain English, which encourages many players to skim or skip further down to terms that look like they actually mean something to the average user (who does not have to worry about the scope of software licenses, whether or not they can reverse engineer, store in a retrieval system, or supply all or in part for some other purpose.... etc) as they don't even know what most of it means, let alone are thinking of doing it and just checking whether it's allowed.

Under bonuses, the section 7.3 seems to mislead players:-

7.3 Any bonuses and/or freespins may only be used on a single occasion per Player’s Account. It is not allowed in any way for a Player to use another Player’s Account in order to circumvent this restriction and gain more than one bonus/freespin. Any bonuses and/or freespins can only be used once by each household, family, address, e-mail address, IP-address and Player’s Accounts which are used from computers in public environments (such as schools, workplaces and libraries). In addition, the Gaming Operator reserves the right to Close any Player’s Account and seize any existing funds if the Gaming Operator suspects that any kind of abuse, fraud or other undue usage of the Player’s Account occurs.

Well, if it's once "per player account", then it means that players CAN use the same bonus once in Redbet, once in Whitebet, and once again in HeyPoker, as these are all legitimately registered player accounts for said player. This needs rewording to reflect that usage is once "per person across all three brands", rather than "per player account".

An alternative would be to have players use a single "player account" across all three brands.
 
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I am curious as to why the player is being asked for a bank statement when this is a back-to-card payment? I have received such back-to-card payments before, and all that is needed is an ID document, utility bill, and copy of back and front of the card. Given that the whole saga started with incorrect advice from CS, compounding the problem further rather than simply correcting the error is bound to make the player "madder" than they already are over the issue.

The payment solution we use do not allow us to manually insert the credit card number for manual payouts. The option is a bank to bank payment.
 
Still no resolution from WhiteBet, I have now sent them copies of my drivers license, the front and back of my card I deposited with, a screenshot of my full financial details including all bank accounts and they now request details that are not available on my online banking.

It seems as though this company is going out of its way to be as impossible as they can. I would really appreciate it if some users could provide the best route to escalate this matter to their licensing body.

- T
 
Still no resolution from WhiteBet, I have now sent them copies of my drivers license, the front and back of my card I deposited with, a screenshot of my full financial details including all bank accounts and they now request details that are not available on my online banking.

It seems as though this company is going out of its way to be as impossible as they can. I would really appreciate it if some users could provide the best route to escalate this matter to their licensing body.

- T


We have a European bank and can't make a transfer to a UK bank account number. All you have to do is reply to the e-mails with your IBAN and SWIFT/BIC and it's done.

Or just send it in a PM to me.

Alex
 
We have a European bank and can't make a bank transfer to a UK bank account number. Simple as that. All you have to do is reply to the e-mails with your IBAN and SWIFT/BIC and it's done.

Or just send it in a PM to me.

Alex

If I could find those details I would send them. The problem is they are not on my online banking page. How can I send a screenshot of something that does not exist?

-T
 
If I could find those details I would send them. The problem is they are not on my online banking page. How can I send a screenshot of something that does not exist?

-T

We don't need a screenshot. We just need it in text. PM here or by e-mail. Ask your bank and they'll be able to provide it for you. If they hide it from their customers I'm sure they have to answer these questions on a daily basis.

Alex
 
Just spoken with Whitebet on the phone and they have successfully refunded my payment to my credit card. Thanks for sorting me out Maria. Finally.

Accounts closed at Whitebet and Redbet permanently.

- T
 
I have noticed this too. These numbers do not always show on statements, particularly online ones. They are also not used within the UK, so the majority of customers will never need this information, nor notice it is absent. On one of my online statements, it's shown under a "click here to reveal" marker, rather than written.

Where you might find it though is on a downloadable statement (not the transactions, but the actual statement, usually a PDF of what would be posted out).


Looking at one of my paper statements, I can see that the IBAN consists of 22 characters. The last 8 are my account number, and the 6 before that are the sort code. Before this there are 8 characters, both letters and numbers. The BIC is another 11 characters, with none of them seeming to relate to the internal UK account numbers. I thought the sort code identified the branch in any case, so it's puzzling that a BIC is needed in addition to the IBAN considering that both sort code and account number are encoded there, thus identifying the branch as well as the account number.

Of the number and letter codes, I see "GB" which is presumably identifying the country, plus the first 4 letters of the name of the parent bank as it was presumably when the codes were issued (it has since merged with other banks, and no longer exists as it's former entity).

I have noticed that this information is more readily available than it used to be, so perhaps banks have been receiving so many queries that some have decided to include the information on statements. The online screen is really a list of transactions, plus tools for online banking, which is probably why such fixed information is not shown on screen by default.

One problem faced by UK customers has been that when asking for such information, the call centre staff may not have this readily to hand, and may try to bluff their way through the query, offering such gems as "we don't have one", or stating that "it's the same as the sort code and account number", all of which leave the customer with the wrong information, which they will then insist is right because their bank said so when they are told this is not was is needed by the entity trying to effect payment.
 

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Just spoken with Whitebet on the phone and they have successfully refunded my payment to my credit card. Thanks for sorting me out Maria. Finally.

Accounts closed at Whitebet and Redbet permanently.

- T

I permanently closed my account with them to after depositing a couple of 100 euros, that is Whitebet i mean. I can find WMS slots elsewhere if i need to play them.

But reading all this i just laughed.
 
*sigh* smdh!
 

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