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Which software do you prefer?

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by kosta.kk, Nov 14, 2008.

    Nov 14, 2008
  1. kosta.kk

    kosta.kk Dormant account

    Occupation:
    N/A
    Location:
    N/A
    Dear Casinomeister forum members,

    As a group of investors, we are interested in diversifying our portfolio by successfully starting an online gambling operation.

    We are currently considering which software to work with. The providers we currently consider are:
    - Playtech (although they do not accept any start-ups at the moment)
    - MicroGaming
    - WagerLogic (CryptoLogic)
    - WagerWorks
    - Boss Media

    May we kindly ask you to rank these five software providers as per your personal experience. Please kindly suggest the pro's and con's of each one of them. Also, any feedback on their business model will be much appreciated.

    Thank you for your time!

    P.S.
    I will make sure to give away a special bonus to all of you once we open our doors.
     
  2. Nov 14, 2008
  3. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    As far as I go, when I see a Wagerworks casino, I feel I can trust them off the bat. Similarly with Microgaming, I feel the licences are strict and as a player I will have a level of protection. Crypto too to a lesser extent.

    As far as software goes and mainly from a slots perspective:

    1) Microgaming (edges out Wagerworks on games choice)
    2) Wagerworks (would be just as good if they had more games and better video poker options)
    3) Cryptologic
    4) Playtech
    5) Boss (Pretty crap slots by comparison)

    I would add that there are so many Micros out there now (sorry US people :() that one might question whether a new one would be worth the effort of signing up, whereas with Wagerworks and Crypto, the choice is smaller.

    Since CPS went under, the one thing I miss is instant Neteller cashouts at Microgaming casinos and I prefer Wagerworks casinos more now as a result. Wagerworks and Crypto casinos don't have a "Reverse Pending" period (which I hate) so when you cashout, it's done and there's no going back.

    Wagerworks has the disadvantage of being "Flash only" so no "loyalty" icon on the desktop. But the advantage that Firefox users can play their games where they can't play Flash games from Microgaming. Actually, Crypto went overboard with the icons and re-decorated your room with them every time you logged out so I uninstalled most a while back in a fit of frustration. Think it's better now though.

    :)
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. Nov 15, 2008
  5. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Initially I was a little confused here. If I was an investor looking to stat an online casino I would definitely be looking at one which would be available to the USA market; Namely Rival as a first option, then maybe RTG or Wizard... (new & un-tried, but potentially promising)

    But since you have only named non-US softwares I must assume there are some legal reasons for that.

    So from the ones you named, as a daily player of online casinos for coming up to 8 years, I would chose (bearing in mind that for the last 4 years+ I have been predominately a slots player):-

    1) MicroGaming - biggest choice of great games, but ludicrously slow loading software is a turn-off.
    2) WagerLogic - would definitely be my number 1 if their slots started with lower coins & had more increments. They have the easiest to understand bonus status screens and best game history logs of any software on the net!
    3) Playtech - Very nice software and an increasingly good variety of games. Low variance slots!
    4) WagerWorks - Definitely the best of the 'no-download' casinos, but their slots need autoplay & run very crappily on my PC... :( (Also not enough variety)
    5) Boss Media - I used to like this software, when PG was allowed at 100% in WR... :rolleyes: But they seem to have completely lost the plot and their slots are mostly garbage.

    If it was an option (because I don't think they licence to anyone else), I would seriously consider Grand Virtual - great games & superb back-end system.

    To me, more important than software choice is how you treat your players; good sensible bonuses, Clear, concise & unambiguous T&C's, Quick CS who know what they're talking about, and Very fast, hassle free withdrawals would tick most of my boxes!

    KK
     
  6. Nov 15, 2008
  7. funky_seagull

    funky_seagull Dormant account

    Occupation:
    unemployed, on incapacity benefit.
    Location:
    scotland
    I don't like microgaming. I don't trust their software or their live games. I think they cheat the players. I have uninstalled all microgaming software from my computer and shoved their flash casino shortcuts into the recycling bin. However the people they license their software to tend to be trustworthy.

    Playtech I still haven't made my mind up about them. I don't fully trust their software either but haven't got to the stage of uninstalling them from my computer yet - I don't like some of the people they license their software to.

    cryptologic, their games can be too expensive... I find the payouts to be not very good and 10 a spin on roulette, I mean come on...

    never tried boss media and doubt I ever will.....

    so at a conundrum, come to the conclusion you will never know for sure whether they are all cheating. They are all safely behind your screen in cyberspace. I don't trust them, and if anyone ever questions if they are cheating about a million folk jump to their aid... it's the perfect scam, and I deeply regret ever starting this sick hobby. It's caused me nothing but misery and despair and I hope all the software providers that are cheating experience the pain of losing everything and a nice topping of despair also....

    Now I've got that bitterness off my chest... will try to forget the whole nightmare and not let the bastards ruin my life beyond finances...
     
  8. Nov 15, 2008
  9. babs7262

    babs7262 Banned User

    Occupation:
    On Disability,p/t online slots reviewer
    Location:
    PA
    Im a US citizen so I can only play at MG, but I dont anymore. Id love to help but cant

    Good luck in your new endeavor
     
  10. Nov 15, 2008
  11. jetset

    jetset Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Senior Partner, InfoPowa News Service
    Location:
    Earth
    I think Simmo has covered the bases pretty well and I would in the main agree with his assessments and rankings.

    I'm surprised, though, that noone mentioned NetEntertainment, which has been doing very well this year with its CasinoModule system and has a burgeoning stable of licensees - I'm open to correction but I think they've signed up nineteen this year alone. Good games choice, nice software and you very rarely hear of hassles at NetEnt licensees.

    There's also the possibility of a St. Minver agreement (there are others who do this sort of white labeling too) that provides all that is required and then manages it for the client. Again, one very rarely hears of complaints at St. Minver, which is associated with Boss Media. But be cautious around white labelling and choose your partner very carefully - there have been some unhappy incidents and the players generally have reservations about this style of operating.

    Research has shown that refreshing games regularly is a good attraction for the average player, and most of the big provider companies do this frequently with new game releases and changing themes.

    In this context, there's also been a tremendous amount of cross-platform partnering and games exchanges between the majors this year, along with the introduction of major international movie and video themes like King Kong, The Godfather, Saturday Night Fever and many others, all broadening the player offering.

    If you're thinking of including a poker room, then you also need to consider software popularity and network reputation, together with average daily player liquidity - the number of players on the network as a daily average.

    But at least part of your choice will be constrained by budget considerations - the top companies tend to be a little more expensive, although it is a highly competitive market.

    The US market and your preparedness to enter it (or not) will also be a consideration, because most of the leading companies are out of that as a result of the crazy morass of confusing legislation and an almost fanatical enforcement regime. And as you will have seen from other threads here at Casinomeister, it looks as if Microgaming may be on the way out of the USA as well.

    If you're comfortable with having a go at the US market, then the Rival offering is pretty good and is in the main player-attentive. Wizard Gaming is a recent arrival and looks as if it has potential - they only have two licensees at the moment and will be eager to please, I'm sure.

    I wouldn't touch RTG at all - this Costa Rican based operation's licensees have established a generally poor reputation with the player community by bad conduct - it's a pity because the software has potential and was well liked at one time.

    Having safe software is critically important and should be seen to be supervised by the licensing jurisdiction, so I would also look at whether the licensing jurisdiction that usually comes with the package is a credible one.

    You will get conflicting opinions on this, but for my money the top regulating jurisdictions are probably the UK Gaming Commission and Alderney, with Malta, the Isle of Man and Gibraltar arguably a few pegs below them.

    A license in all of these jurisdictions will enable you to advertise in the UK, as well. On past experience with player disputes, I don't really rate most of the other places. Kahnawake has a huge number of licensees but a poor track record of being player-sensitive and slow to move, as does Antigua and the Netherlands Antilles. It's one thing to have a set of fine-looking regulations; another as to how they are applied in practice and to the benefit of the player.

    Bear in mind also that the self-regulatory system at eCOGRA has its opponents but nevertheless seems to work pretty well and has solid professional and business requirements and player dispute facilities. If you do a little research you'll find a number of big operator names have gravitated toward this outfit for monitoring and regulatory guidance recently, and they have done a lot of collaborative work with the European Gambling and Betting Association (to which most large European operators belong) and with several national jurisdictions. There are about 130-odd tier one online casinos and poker rooms - mainly in the Ongame-Bwin, 888.com and Microgaming stables - under the eCOGRA system.

    You'll need to carefully consider how you set up your financial channels - another critically important factor and one where the right choice of provider can save you a lot of hassle and risk.

    The same applies to player Support and to affiliate marketing arrangements.

    Good luck! It's a brave decision to enter this market in the current economic climate, although online companies seem to be doing better than their land equivalents at present.
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. Nov 15, 2008
  13. aka23

    aka23 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Technical
    Location:
    Planet Earth
    My top 10 are:

    1. Microgaming -- In my opinion, the highest quality games available. Has useful features (to players) not found in other softwares, such as VP auto-hold and programmable BJ strategy.

    2. Wagerworks -- The best no-download software available. As I recall, it won the Casinomeister best SW provider award for the previous year.

    3. Cryptologic
    4. Playtech
    5. Net Ent
    6. Grand Virtual (Everest Gaming)
    7. Rival
    8. RTG
    9. Boss
    10. Odds On (Vegas Tech.)

    Of course, there are many other factors in the choice. It depends on your target audience; what games you focus on, including live ones; download, no-download ,or both; whether you also have a sportsbook and/or poker; your budget; etc.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2008
  14. Nov 15, 2008
  15. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    Funnily enough they crossed my mind when I was writing but as they weren't a "contender" in this thread. Again, from a slots perspective, there are only a couple that would make/have made me go back and the video poker left me cold. But not being a table game playe.... :D

    I hear ya on that KK. The most annoying thing (Attack Of The Icons aside) is the lack of increments. Jumping from $2.25 to $9 a spin, then $9 to $18 and then $18 up to $45 shows a total lack of understanding about how many slot players play. And the $5-$20-$100 a spin jumps too LOL. Talk about cutting out the middle man :)
     
  16. Nov 15, 2008
  17. DogBoy001

    DogBoy001 Senior Member webmeister

    Occupation:
    Managing Director
    Location:
    Great Southern Land
    ...and yet I see 9 RTG's on the accredited list here at Casinomeister and...umm...how many Rivals? Wizard? Lol. NetEnt?

    Methinks your agenda fails to distinguish between software and licensees.

    Wooof
     
    1 person likes this.
  18. Nov 15, 2008
  19. jetset

    jetset Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Senior Partner, InfoPowa News Service
    Location:
    Earth
    "My agenda"? Explain please.

    And its relevance to the Casinomeister accredited list?

    Ah, I see - you're connected with RTG, are you? Perhaps as a games supplier?

    I suggest you read my post regarding RTG again before you accuse me of confusing software with licensee:

    "I wouldn't touch RTG at all - this Costa Rican based operation's licensees have established a generally poor reputation with the player community by bad conduct - it's a pity because the software has potential and was well liked at one time."

    Ask any experienced online player and you will be told that way too many RTG licensees have a history of poor (I'm being kind - some of the stunts that have been pulled are downright fraudulent) player treatment. And RTG has not behaved in an encouraging way in the past when it comes to player disputes - again, ask any experienced online player or just check the archives here at Casinomeister. That doesn't help their reputation either.

    That doesn't mean they don't have some good licensees - it's the risk of becoming involved with the bad ones that makes it an iffy proposition imv.
     
  20. Nov 15, 2008
  21. NewOrleans

    NewOrleans Banned User

    Occupation:
    gambling
    Location:
    Canada New Brunswick
    nice nice

    hey we need another trust worthy RTG casino ! they also have the cheapest software to invest in I do believe,please pick RTG because I want another RTG trustworthy casino on this list! and you could have a giant bonus that would own inetbet's 100% signup go with a 300% signup for me hehehe
     
  22. Nov 15, 2008
  23. Mousey

    Mousey Ueber Meister Mouse CAG

    Occupation:
    Pencil Pusher
    Location:
    Up$hitCreek
    Personally, I wish someone would buy up that wonderful inChili software... what was it? Player preferred? And make a reputable go at it.

    Sorry... having my coffee and half asleep... still dreaming...

    As to the OP original... We need another MG casino like we need another hole in the head. Go for Crypto or RTG. But if you DO go with RTG, be aware that we won't trust you for a very long time -- until you prove yourself reputable. We've all seen waaaay too many scumbag casinos flying under the RTG banner to trust new RTGs right away.

    Whichever software you choose, be honest, be considerate, don't despise your players, don't give players fat bonuses, then hate them for winning off you. Provide friendly, knowledgeable CS, and start off with enough money/backing to pay your players promptly.

    Good luck.
     
  24. Nov 15, 2008
  25. kosta.kk

    kosta.kk Dormant account

    Occupation:
    N/A
    Location:
    N/A
    I want to thank all of you for your inputs. They were much appreciated and will be taken into account.

    To conclude:

    - Would you mind if the casino only has a Web-based version without the option to download the software?

    - Which jurisdiction do you trust the most?

    - Which progressive Jackpot network do you like and/or trust the most?

    - Do you prefer a stand-alone casino or a brand which consists of a casino, poker, bingo, etc with the option to use your balance on all of them?

    - What is your favourite poker software?

    - Don't you think that they are too many MicroGaming casinos already while the graphics seem a little bit out of date, compared to PlayTech or Boss Media?

    - Is the reverse pending withdrawal really that anoying?

    - Which two payment methods do you use the most?

    - Do you prefer a casino with bigger bonuses but complex terms, or simple bonus terms but not that generous offers?

    - Which software offers the most transparent bonus systems?


    I apologize for the long list...
     
  26. Nov 15, 2008
  27. kosta.kk

    kosta.kk Dormant account

    Occupation:
    N/A
    Location:
    N/A
    We think that a lower house edge and a professional payment and customer support will be much more profitable in the long-term. We intend to build a brand which the player community will be able to trust.
     
  28. Nov 15, 2008
  29. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    Those I can answer:


    - Would you mind if the casino only has a Web-based version without the option to download the software?

    No - dont mind

    - Which jurisdiction do you trust the most?

    Alderney, Isle Of Man, Gibraltar (in that order)

    - Don't you think that they are too many MicroGaming casinos already while the graphics seem a little bit out of date, compared to PlayTech or Boss Media?

    MG slots looks way better than Boss slots :) As mentioned - too many MGs yes, but none with instant Neteller payouts and only one or two with no Reverse time - there's the USP IMO ;)

    - Is the reverse pending withdrawal really that anoying?

    Yes

    - Which two payment methods do you use the most?

    Neteller, Cards

    - Do you prefer a casino with bigger bonuses but complex terms, or simple bonus terms but not that generous offers?

    Don't take signup bonuses that have restrictions - prefer decent loyalty bonuses with less restrictions.
     
    1 person likes this.
  30. Nov 15, 2008
  31. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom

    - Would you mind if the casino only has a Web-based version without the option to download the software?

    Personally, I prefer download. Web only casinos tend to have horrible problems down to the much larger transfer of data. An example it the recently departed Lasseters casino, which used Orbis software for some of the slots. What REALLY put me off from playing much was the totally ridiculous length of time it took to simply load a slot, which was repeated every time I wanted to switch games. Often, it would take many minutes to load a new game, and this was repeated every time I wanted to try another. Dowloaded software is only held up by the PC, and with a decent PC the loading is acceptable. The problem with Microgaming not loading is NOT down to the PC, but is because a checking process puts a hold on the execution of the start-up, and access problems to the main Microgaming update server is what causes MG powered casinos to sit for ages on 0% casino 0% menu before loading up.

    - Which jurisdiction do you trust the most?

    UK, but sadly Gordon made this a somewhat unworkable proposition by having an over the top tax rate of 15%. ANY UK whitelisted jurisdiction enables full access to the UK and European market (except perhaps for a few countries currently being hauled through the EU courts for restricting competition in the industry to favour protectionism).

    Do not rely on the US. It is a HUGE player base, worth a potential fortune, however, the screw is tightening, and the UIGEA can trip up even the best. Accepting US players will also create problems when it comes to "The City". NO company wants to be seen to be acting "illegally", and listed companies were the first to pull out of the US. Neteller were forced out, and came out with their reputation in tatters. MG is now in the process of being forced out through the actions in Kentucky courts.

    - Which progressive Jackpot network do you like and/or trust the most?

    I am not overly concerned, I associate "trust" as being with player and casino, and if I trust a casino, I trust I will be paid from a progressive they offer as part of a network.

    - Do you prefer a stand-alone casino or a brand which consists of a casino, poker, bingo, etc with the option to use your balance on all of them?

    I prefer a stand alone casino, since the extra work involved with having a central purse and internal transfers can be a little annoying, and presents another potential point of failure in the process.
    However, I do not play poker (currently), nor engage in sports betting. IF much of your customer base preferred to play poker, bingo, and even sports betting, as well as a casino, then you would still be better off having the model with a central purse and the ability to use it in any product.
    One of the biggest problems with this approach is when bonuses are brought in. Bonuses tend to add layers of rules that restrict players from transferring between the different sections of a multi-product site, and more rules means more confusion, and ultimately causes for complaint.

    - What is your favourite poker software?

    I have only ever played ONE game online, and it was a one off tournament, It was on Microgaming poker software, but this does not qualify me to offer an opinion as to which is best.

    - Don't you think that they are too many MicroGaming casinos already while the graphics seem a little bit out of date, compared to PlayTech or Boss Media?

    Recently, YES. There seems to have been a flood of new MG casinos coming out of the woodwork. It may well be my favourite software, but there are so many to choose from. The ONLY thing that makes them different are their promotional offers, and there is not actually much difference between them.

    The Microgaming Tournament software is a complete Dog's Breakfast, despite the fact the faults have been around for YEARS (well, 2 at least). Far better multiplayer tournament software is to be had with the other brands, such as Cryptologic.

    Microgaming have a reputation for churing out new games, but at the expense of fixing long standing issues with the software, which are just allowed to accumulate and create annoyance to players. Mostly this is minor, but long standing problems with the tournaments is a MAJOR issue, and one which MG have steadfastly ignored so far this year (in fact, things have worsened, not improved).

    - Is the reverse pending withdrawal really that anoying?

    You bet it is:)

    The problem is simple, when I cash out, I have STOPPED PLAYING, and I want my cash NOW!!!
    Most likely, I want liquidity, I do NOT want my funds tied up in lengthly pending periods. Where withdrawals are made to the eWallets, there is no excuse whatsoever for any kind of pending period other than for the once off verification procedures for a new player's first withdrawal.
    Liquidity means I can take up other offers at other casinos, but equally, liquidity means I can withdraw from those other casinos, and play at YOUR casino. Overall, the industry sees more in the way of deposits, and since there is play on these deposits, the opportunity to make profit from the hold.

    - Which two payment methods do you use the most?

    Neteller is my primary choice, as it is fast, and if YOU pay ME through Neteller, I get it AT ONCE.

    My second method is VISA - not so fast, but works in the UK.
    Personally, I feel the industry should wean itself off CREDIT cards as a deposit method, except for the prepaid variety. This has more to do with responsible gambling rather than technical issues.
    It is harder to end up with problem players if they have only been able to use money they already have.

    - Do you prefer a casino with bigger bonuses but complex terms, or simple bonus terms but not that generous offers?

    I don't mind promotions with "complex" terms, but what I DON'T like is the following
    "If in the view of management, you have used abusive strategies to win from any promotion, the casino may, at their discresion, void all winnings and return the deposit"

    This is simply a woolly term that rogue casinos use to avoid paying players. While terms may be complex, they MUST be precice, and if adhered to, the player MUST BE PAID. IF you didn't like "the way they played", pay them, and then show them the door. It is helpful to tell them WHY, at least in broad terms, otherwise you face accusations of unreasonable discrimination.

    If games are deemed DO NOT PLAY, then say so, do NOT say "does not count towards requirements" and then VOID WINNINGS because a player played such a game. Software does not usually allow for games to be disabled during promotions, so players need to be told CLEARLY whether their favourite game simply "does not count" or "must not be played" during the course of a promotion.

    A simple system of claiming promotions is better than automatically awarding them. This means a player has chosen a particular offer, and has presumably elected to take part having first decided the rules are to his liking. Many "simple systems" however, are beset with "technical problems", which makes them anything but simple.

    - Which software offers the most transparent bonus systems?

    Cryptologic - under cashier you can get an instant pop-up of both total requirements, those met so far, and amount to go. When you click on the coded promotion next to this, it opens a screen which lists each and every game (or game class) that is allowed for said promotion.

    This easily beats Microgaming into second place (for me anyway), where the instant "bonus bubble" showing the amount still left in the bonus balance is offset by numerous technical lapses within the tracking software itself.
    One advantage of the MG system is that there is no such thing as an "excluded game", although operators can set different weighting for different games, including a zero weighting for games they do not want to count, perhaps because of past experience with "advantage players".

    RTG has a similar tracking feature to MG, and this is shown under cashier as an amount left to be wagered on the appropriate games as listed in the promotional rules.

    Boss media has always had a bonus tracking feature, but many other softwares have taken time to realise this is what players need so they do not have to keep worrying about having met requirements, or rely on making calculations from a proxy counter, such as accumulated loyalty points.

    Playtech seems to have lacked a proper bonus requirement tracker, but I hear rumour that things might have improved since I last used a Playtech powered casino.

    I am not familiar with others quoted, such as Rival, Wizard Gaming, NetEnt, Wagerworks etc.
     
    2 people like this.
  32. Nov 15, 2008
  33. pinsnpies

    pinsnpies Experienced Member PABnononaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    Customer service advisor for BT
    Location:
    Bangor North Wales UK
    Gibraltar. No Kahnawake rubbish please. There are lently of rogue casinos operating out of Kahnawake.
     
  34. Nov 15, 2008
  35. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    Agree with that :thumbsup:

    Don't agree with that ;)

    I always visit the ones with instant payouts first.
     
  36. Nov 15, 2008
  37. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I remember those days. I would start my week at Casino Action with the Munchkin Monday tournament, then use the instant Neteller option to get paid for the rest of the week. My prizes (and I usually got one, or more), went on the Thursday tournament.

    Now, there are only fast payers, where it is most likely, but not guaranteed, that the withdrawal will be in Neteller the next day.
     
  38. Nov 16, 2008
  39. winbig

    winbig Keep winning this amount. webby PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Bum
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Well, with ANY new casino, USA players are screwed, because MG no longer accepts USA players. So no matter what s/w you go with that you listed, you're alienating Americans. Nothing new there.

    Why not use two platforms. One from your list, and another that you can market to USA players? i.e.: Rival/RTG/Whatever. I could almost guarantee that if you open up a new casino BESIDES MGS, and allow all Americans, even from the banned states, you're going to make a small fortune; as long as the casino is ran right, and you treat your players well. This is what Golden Palace did by opening Golden Casino early on, but they ran it into the ground with slow/non pay, etc...
     

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