when are you people gonna learn, ALL online casinos are dishonest ? !

assa92004

Dormant account
Joined
May 30, 2008
Location
Melbourne Australia
I was going to respond point by point but it is, well, pointless.

I am not defending 'them' (I assume you mean online casinos in general). I am not defending anything or anyone. My results over 10 years have been in line with what I would expect playing games of around 92-96% RTP online, which is far better than the 84% that the regulated slots payout here in Australia.

People are adamantly demanding regulation of the industry, and I agree it would be better for everyone involved. However, remember that regulation costs money and it will come out of players' pockets not anyone else's (i.e. lower RTP as exists in B&M operations around the world). You see, the government will want their tax take, the operator must make money, and you can be assured that the credit card companies will find a way to screw us as well. At the moment, it is just the casino taking it's ~5% profit and the rest is back to the player. Personally, I would rather keep the better RTP but I also think regulation is more important so I will sacrifice one for the other.

At the end of the day, you are still playing online and probably will continue to do so. Unless you stop right now and never play again, then it means that either a) you do not really believe what you say or b) you do believe what you say but are really dumb.

I find it very difficult to give any credence to people who cry 'cheat' etc etc and then keep playing (and probably post the same stuff again the next week). If everyone that posted here at CM with those opinions swore off online gambling forever then I would definitely reconsider my own views - but it seldom happens and most times it is just letting off steam when one loses (which is fine, but don't make up reasons for why you lost your money)

The minute I don't think I am getting a fair game, I am outta here.

Assa, you are deluded if you think that everyone who doesn't share your view is somehow connected to a casino. Many people here have a contrary view to yours and are just players like myself.

mmm look the bottom line is, and always is, if you cant see the wheel then there is always doubt that they are being fair. You cant argue that
and delusion is in the eye of the beholder. And yes you are correct regulation
would cost more money, however better for everyone dont you think.

You are doing my head in here. you dont get it. THE WHEEL IS HIDDEN
lol dear oh dear. we dont see the winning result.
at least at the pokies here when they rip you off its not personal
as they have no idea whos playing. so they cant 'manage your account'
but online they can and do.
if it means more money to them they will do it. U dont think they are altruistic and do this coz they like us.
silly billy..

but as i said. u arent getting it. you cant see the wheel and the result.
at least have a dis interested 3rd party do a 5 percent or 2 percent transaction check or however it would work. with the loss of their license
if found to be fiddling .. they need a watch dog watching them.
You know something I trust my bank more than i do them and thats saying something.
and banks have watch dogs. oversight.

TVs yes minster ... but there are no patients (in the hosp) but minister its the best run hospital .. ..

listen i have a casino here. can u give me 100 bucks and i will tell u if u have won.

lol you cant see the wheel in fact i dont even know if the bloody wheel has spun. do you.
no..
bottom line is. we play and we trust that they arent doing it. (cheating us) and that isnt good enough

LOL
 
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assa92004

Dormant account
Joined
May 30, 2008
Location
Melbourne Australia
I was going to respond point by point but it is, well, pointless.

I am not defending 'them' (I assume you mean online casinos in general). I am not defending anything or anyone. My results over 10 years have been in line with what I would expect playing games of around 92-96% RTP online, which is far better than the 84% that the regulated slots payout here in Australia.

People are adamantly demanding regulation of the industry, and I agree it would be better for everyone involved. However, remember that regulation costs money and it will come out of players' pockets not anyone else's (i.e. lower RTP as exists in B&M operations around the world). You see, the government will want their tax take, the operator must make money, and you can be assured that the credit card companies will find a way to screw us as well. At the moment, it is just the casino taking it's ~5% profit and the rest is back to the player. Personally, I would rather keep the better RTP but I also think regulation is more important so I will sacrifice one for the other.

At the end of the day, you are still playing online and probably will continue to do so. Unless you stop right now and never play again, then it means that either a) you do not really believe what you say or b) you do believe what you say but are really dumb.

I find it very difficult to give any credence to people who cry 'cheat' etc etc and then keep playing (and probably post the same stuff again the next week). If everyone that posted here at CM with those opinions swore off online gambling forever then I would definitely reconsider my own views - but it seldom happens and most times it is just letting off steam when one loses (which is fine, but don't make up reasons for why you[

/B] lost your money)

The minute I don't think I am getting a fair game, I am outta here.

Assa, you are deluded if you think that everyone who doesn't share your view is somehow connected to a casino. Many people here have a contrary view to yours and are just players like myself.


I Know you don't have shares or work for them so whose a dummy
you are defending them so big time
and no im not blowing off steam
it was a well considered position,
why isn't yours

seriously now, you are doing my head in
i cant believe you believe what you say.
 

4 of a kind

Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll
Joined
Mar 11, 2009
Location
New York
I'd like to put forward a hypothetical scenario. Let's pretend that someone brought forward irrefutable evidence that one software brand had internal access to software performance beyond ones imagination. Let's say for arguments sake that all the alleged accusations by players were confirmed true for this one software company.

What would happen at this point? Would everyone just assume that if one could do it, they all must be able too? Would online gaming come to a screeching halt? Would we be hearing how it was only a rogue operator or two with access to the software?

Can anyone say poker scandal? The truth of the matter remains that even if a software provider or casino was confirmed cheating nothing would change. Of course a couple of names will be thrown into the fire with no legal consequences. The casino or software company will then allege it's been sold and bought out or just re-brands. All other unnamed software providers will come forward and explain how this could never happen with their software with all the safety precautions in place, etc.etc.etc.

After the initial shock everything will be back to normal within a few months. The poker scandal involving two major poker sites was enough to prove to all poker players that without regulation stay clear. Millions of dollars were returned to players confirming fraud. Then their was even a segment on 60 minutes exposing the cheating. Some impact this all had on poker sites. Not only are the two sites still operating under the same names, their still near the top of the money printing business.

The bottom line here is even proof will not bring in real regulation. This is a multi billion dollar industry and no one person is going to bring it down. Not now, not ever.

What it all boils down to, is each player must decide for themselves. If your convinced your not getting a fair game just pull the plug. You would have a better chance of winning the lottery then coming to a site like this and trying to prove foul play. Everyone seems to forget that money is the only motivation in this field. When your talking billions and billions of dollars one should only realistically imagine what is possible.
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
What it all boils down to, is each player must decide for themselves. If your convinced your not getting a fair game just pull the plug.

A very sensible statement. As I was saying to Assa, if you believe in all the cloak and dagger stuff then have the courage of your convictions and stop playing online.

It is interesting what you say about the poker scandal, and that online poker is still going strong in the aftermath. I think the result may have been different if the operators involved did not recompense those who had lost....at least this says to the players "We stuffed up, it isn't your fault, and you are not going to pay for it". Poker rooms will make far more money in the long run than they will by trying to fleece people for short term gain.

I also believe that online casinos (the reputable ones anyway) have a vested interest in producing winners! Winners attract players, and winners inevitably become losers along with the people they attracted initially without any need for software manipulation or 'personal profit tracking' etc.

The bottom line is that online casinos don't need to do all this things they are accused of by Assa and others. A good operator can make a very nice profit just by offering fast payouts, great games, great service, and a reasonable RTP. Don't believe me? Check out 32Red and 3Dice et al.

Here is another question for Assa - Why doesn't the casino just give you as many free bonuses as you want whenever you want with a small WR? I mean, if your account is set to 'lose' it wouldn't matter would it? The casino could offer you a 500% match up to $5000 with a 5xWR, or a $1000 freebie with 5WR....it wouldn't bother the casino as you can't win anyway.

You say that we 'can't see the wheel'. Well, you can't see it at land based casinos either (except for the table games and the big wheel) so I am not sure what your point is....? We are all at the mercy of the computer chip these days so, as you said, it does come down to trust at some point.

I trust the online casinos where I play. Why? Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose, I am treated well and sometimes even get pampered. I believe I am playing a fair game, as I strongly doubt that I would have experienced the wins I have on a 'rigged to lose' game or account. You have to realise when you hit big at a casino, you probably had a lot of losing sessions beforehand, which you probably conveniently forget when you hit the jackpot. After that, you start losing again (which most players do because...errr..its a casino) and you begin to question the fairness of the software, when actually you are just losing like everyone else but it feels 'iffy' because you haven't hit big again.

The other reason I trust where I play is because I play only at Casinomeister Accredited Casinos.

CM is the great 'firewall' between me and the rogue operators who want to rob me blind. I can state categorically that I would not have woken up to who the good guys are if it hadn't been for Bryan and this site. He is not perfect, and sometimes good operators go bad - but being here means I am the first to know and I am able to make better decisions about where I spend my money.

You can make accusations about RTG all you like, but I am ahead with them the past 2 years which is more than I can say for other platforms. So, does that mean my account is set to 'win' and yours is set to 'lose'. Give me a break.

I have often asked posters if they have any theory about how exactly the 'account tracking' works. Do they have dozens of workers following everyone's play? Do they have a different 'game' for each and every player? Do they remove symbols from the reels while you play? Do they have a program that identifies people like you who have won jackpots and reduce your RTP as a result (I can't see how they could achieve this without you playing a completely different version of the slot than everyone else). I really am interested in the deeper parts of this theory.

My view in the meantime remains the same - that is, the casinos don't need to do all this stuff for you to lose. House edge ensures you will lose all on it's own.
 

EbeeDog

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 21, 2010
Location
Akron OH
My view in the meantime remains the same - that is, the casinos don't need to do all this stuff for you to lose. House edge ensures you will lose all on it's own.


Nice post. Many good points made reasonably and politely, but this is the one I like the best :) It is the one irrefutable fact that usually brings me back to reality when I get to thinking: Cheats! Manipulators! RTG damn you! etc etc..lol

When I am able to think about it clearly, another point often occurs to me: that is, casinos (B&M or Online) don't really need to alter things because, also from my own experience, the player's greed is their best income generator. :D

Is it my opinion that some of this "stuff" goes on? Sure, I have already made that clear. But I have found a way to live with it and keep playing.

While it is just as addictive, it beats smokin' crack :)

Peace.

Afterthought: I too would have lost untold amounts to rogues if it hadn't have been for this site.
 
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buggars

Dormant Account
PABnonaccred
Joined
Apr 20, 2010
Location
Atmore, Alabama
I too was just about to believe all these casinos were just a way to get your money and i would never win but for the last two weeks I found that to be untrue. I have won over $5000 and never really won much out of 7-8 yrs of online gambling. I'm a believer now and will continue to play but only @ very reputable casinos.
buggars
gl all
 

assa92004

Dormant account
Joined
May 30, 2008
Location
Melbourne Australia
where there is smoke there is fire ...

All I am suggesting fellows, is that where there is no oversight, and large vast amounts of money, there is bound to be temptation to not play by the rules.

Why do we have oversight on banks and just about every other business
that has dealings with cash money.

Why cant we have serious oversight on online casinos.
Who would it hurt. Make it voluntary. You may be surprised how much better
their business's would run as in players having more confidence in them
if a 3rd party (say some type of well known accounting firm) running audits
on them. I am not suggesting this as the answer just a suggestion on how it could be run. I would be certainly happier about handing over money
knowing at some stage a percentage of transactions are checked.

And if you dont want some kind of assurance How come
(please dont quote figures on how much extra it would cost as you cant know that so please other reasons why not)
 

StaceyLee

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Location
Australia
Casiono's - It's Worth A Look!

I have to say that I agree with both sides of this issue and remain "on the fence", however I would favour regulation of some sort. People are always going to play for a multitude of reasons, which is why a voice in this ocean is barely audible, but it would be interesting if a casino could just investigate the possible benefits for themselves by introducing a legit 3rd party regulation.

Sure, they have had great marketing PR people who have convinced them that their clientele will increase if they provide quick payouts and great service. Maybe it's now time for a casino marketing rep to think about another strategy to attract clients from other casinos; to bring in those wanting to play but that are too "scared" to play on-line because they automatically believe it must be "rigged"; and to eliminate bad publicity by "word of mouth".

We are given pages of terms and conditions that we as players have to abide by, how about our terms and conditions? But of course if this type of fairness existed it would be a perfect world - and unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world.

Back to the point: I do believe that by providing a 3rd party regulator to ensure there is no computer tampering and casino is winning by house edge alone, that an on-line casino's profit margin will increase.

Sure, there may possibly be more wins and more payouts; there will be players that play for the "sport" and "challenge" of strategy who may win consistently; and there will always be entertainment players. But regardless of the reason for playing, human nature in our world today demands honesty and security wherever it can and will provide loyalty to whomever can provide it!

Many major corporations around the world are addressing this issue in their PR departments. For e.g. the biggest phone company in our country has had to revamp their commitment to clientele and introduce marketing strategies geared toward providing honest service, incentive plans and bonuses; treating people as human beings once again; etc - as for several years their profits plummeted due to complacency and disprespect for human nature.

At least with regulation the "fear" of being ripped off can be eliminated and players can truly enjoy the game - win or lose. (No more gripes about the "unknown" as people are empowered to make their choices from knowing all the risks beforehand!)

So if anyone (casino rep) is out there watching, just give it some thought. What harm would it do to "toss it around the table". Be a forerunner in your industry and get in first - for once you provide a "safe haven" and capture client loyalty, you will never lose it! And I do believe it will be your greatest marketing asset! After all, you are in business and no matter how successful you may be, you are always at risk of losing your customers.


Cheers all.
StaceyLee
 

takethemoney

Banned User - Chargebacks at Slotastic
Joined
Apr 14, 2004
Location
Washington
I'd like to put forward a hypothetical scenario. Let's pretend that someone brought forward irrefutable evidence that one software brand had internal access to software performance beyond ones imagination. Let's say for arguments sake that all the alleged accusations by players were confirmed true for this one software company.

What would happen at this point? Would everyone just assume that if one could do it, they all must be able too? Would online gaming come to a screeching halt? Would we be hearing how it was only a rogue operator or two with access to the software?

Can anyone say poker scandal? The truth of the matter remains that even if a software provider or casino was confirmed cheating nothing would change. Of course a couple of names will be thrown into the fire with no legal consequences. The casino or software company will then allege it's been sold and bought out or just re-brands. All other unnamed software providers will come forward and explain how this could never happen with their software with all the safety precautions in place, etc.etc.etc.

After the initial shock everything will be back to normal within a few months. The poker scandal involving two major poker sites was enough to prove to all poker players that without regulation stay clear. Millions of dollars were returned to players confirming fraud. Then their was even a segment on 60 minutes exposing the cheating. Some impact this all had on poker sites. Not only are the two sites still operating under the same names, their still near the top of the money printing business.

The bottom line here is even proof will not bring in real regulation. This is a multi billion dollar industry and no one person is going to bring it down. Not now, not ever.

What it all boils down to, is each player must decide for themselves. If your convinced your not getting a fair game just pull the plug. You would have a better chance of winning the lottery then coming to a site like this and trying to prove foul play. Everyone seems to forget that money is the only motivation in this field. When your talking billions and billions of dollars one should only realistically imagine what is possible.

I believed this and did with one software platform across the board. 102 negative result deposits don't lie. Nothing one way or the other will ever be proven but at a young age my father taught me that my gut instincts are going to be my best guide and if it doesn't look or smell right...RUN LIKE HELL!
Sage advice. I will not spend countless hours lamenting over the past or trying to down a business without concrete proof. I can, however, choose not to play there. ;)
 

Stovetopp

Senior Member
MM
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Location
On the Beach
All I am suggesting fellows, is that where there is no oversight, and large vast amounts of money, there is bound to be temptation to not play by the rules.

Why do we have oversight on banks and just about every other business
that has dealings with cash money
.

Why cant we have serious oversight on online casinos.
Who would it hurt. Make it voluntary. You may be surprised how much better
their business's would run as in players having more confidence in them
if a 3rd party (say some type of well known accounting firm) running audits
on them. I am not suggesting this as the answer just a suggestion on how it could be run. I would be certainly happier about handing over money
knowing at some stage a percentage of transactions are checked.

And if you dont want some kind of assurance How come
(please dont quote figures on how much extra it would cost as you cant know that so please other reasons why not)

We did have oversight prior to 2008 and what good did that do? The only regulations that seems to be working is the LAS VEGAS model.
 

felicie

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Location
somewhere else
I 've been hardly playing anywhere for over a year now because I got no joy throwing my money down the toilet month after month and no joy sort of puts a cramp in any good addiction if you ask me.

More importantly though was this growing feeling that the whole winning/losing thing was becoming more like holidays on a calendar, not sure which day exactly but certainly would occur during that month.

In 5 or 6 years of playing, every win I've had has been in one of only 3 months. The same 3 months every year for 5 years? Thats not random no way. I don't care what kind of math magic you use.

But who cares. Some do some don't as you would see by reading many of these same discussions in this forum since I've been around here anyway and, the only change NOT depositing has brought me was that now I NEVER win.

So I think I shall return to my past habit of regular play at the few I feel will at least send me the check because as it stands now, I am no richer, the casinos didn't even notice I was gone and my bank as usual just keeps taking more and more and with no joy included I might add.:mad:

Maybe I will get some kind of feeling of randomness (word?) in choosing which casino will treat me right this month. But I bet I'll have to wait till April for another win.:rolleyes:
 

takethemoney

Banned User - Chargebacks at Slotastic
Joined
Apr 14, 2004
Location
Washington
I have not deposited a dime in an online casino in 3 months now. Pretty good, huh? When it becomes pointless it also becomes no fun when the outcome is like watching a movie you've seen before. I just have no signs to tell me anything would be different if I were to play again. I have been enjoying going to a land based casino which is about an hour drive from me. I'm ahead of the game there, which is a refreshing change compared to playing at RTG casinos which seem to have my number. I'm sure with other folks having similar experiences, there are less deposits and this probably only serves to drive the casinos to be even tighter???
 

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