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What would you do.....and be honest!

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by julester, Mar 11, 2007.

?

Should I pay or should I go?

  1. Pay

    3 vote(s)
    4.2%
  2. Go

    57 vote(s)
    80.3%
  3. Reach a settlement

    11 vote(s)
    15.5%
    Mar 11, 2007
  1. julester

    julester Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Director
    Location:
    London
    OK, all. My 2nd post - please be kind :)

    I have found myself in a bizarre situation...please bear with me, can't make this any shorter.

    You will see from my last post that I requested some alternatives to MG slots. A few of you suggested RTG and mentioned some reputable casinos. I tried one of them...and here's what happened. I have not mentioned the company just in case!

    I deposit circa $2,000 over 3/4 hours playing mainly $5 a spin. I admit I was chasing the losses and wished that I had stuck with Thunderstruck...but Ronin was quite appealing..it just didn't pay!

    I called it a night with a balance of circa $300. In the morning, I logged to win the big one and my account had been disabled due to 'security'. I was asked to send in some id - credit card statements, driving license etc in order to access my account. Logged on later in the day and there was a message on screen to call customer services.

    Now at this point I should say that I cannot fault this company's customers service which has been second to none in the way that they have dealt with me.

    What basically happened is that the casino management cancelled ALL the credit card transactions shortly after I stopped playing worried that there may be fraud in progress. This seems bizarre because if I had won anything, they wouldn't have released the funds until everything had been verified. The reason why they cancelled them (which means that the money is NOT debited from your card) is that if there is a suspicion of obvious fraud not detected by the casino, the credit card companies could clamp down on the casino operators and restrict where they can take deposits from i.e. they were pro-active. In my case, Ireland. NOTE: All Irish players, please check the withdrawal terms as some casinos are not geared up to re-credit your card / bank account etc.

    Now here's the thing....

    The casino is question is now showing that I owe them money. I deposited $2k, lost $1,700 and had a balance of $300. However, because the money was not actually taken, they are asking me to re-deposit $1,700 to bring the account up to-date.

    They absolutely admit that the account should have been put on 'hold' after the first deposit as they always request additional security checks from Irish players. Of course had that of happened, I may or may not of deposited more money. Playing devils advocate, the casino could have deliberately let me 'deposit' amounts that they know I couldn't withdraw on the basis that they were never actually going to make anything other than a paper loss because I couldn't withdraw the money anyway.

    The question is :

    Do I pay the money back - Yes or No.

    1. They shouldn't have accepted the deposits in the first place.

    2. They certainly shouldn't have accepted 7 of them.

    3. They shouldn't have 'suspended' the accounts hours after the event - they must know immediately when transactions are made from abroad.

    They have advised that there is not a lot they can do in this situation because they are in the wrong and would and try and work out some sort of bonus / repayment system. Indeed I was told that I was like a '2-time loser'. Deposit, play, lose, told that you haven't deposited and asked to pay for your loss.

    Hope this makes sense and I would appreciate some candid advice / comments. I am not a cheat and have played on-line for years...just interested in your views.

    Thanks for reading.
     
    4 people like this.
  2. Mar 11, 2007
  3. lojo

    lojo Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Tradesman
    Location:
    USA
    I assume this was an accreditated casino here, and there have been no issues of fairness with current management? (if not, 'potential fruad' could be a good a ruse to keep the books in the black on a bad night for a casino).

    Just my two cents; regardless - you wagered the money and lost. Trust and fairness go both ways. It's partly a philosophical question and personal choice... when the cashier gives you too much change at the market do you laugh it off and think you're getting back for high prices?

    It would be tempting to 'recoup' losses, but at what cost? It sounds to me like they are willing to 'reward' you for doing the right thing with comps or free play. You could even ask for VIP status.

    As for whether they should have accepted the deposits, IMO the only issue is 'Would they have paid you had you won?' if so, its a no-brainer. If not, it's a no-brainer. Maybe you could PM a couple of UK player responders later with the details and they can tell you if the place is completely honest and go from there with asking casino management if they would have paid you.

    Good luck Julester (if you believe in kismet or karma or baraka, etc. it will be easier):thumbsup:
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. Mar 11, 2007
  5. mikepipe

    mikepipe Dormant account

    Occupation:
    owner
    Location:
    still progressing
    Brillant story. Never heard such a nonsene from a casino.
    Of course there is NO reason, why you should pay a cent.
    ou offered them money, they let you believe that the contract (deposit) was ok, because you were able to play (and lose).
    It was just like dealing with playing money - nothing happened.
    And nothing could have happened, even if you had won.
    No win, no loss.
    Why should you have the duty to pay, when you had no chance to win??

    all the best - why not try an irish bookie next time, f.e. paddy power?
    slauntje!:)
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. Mar 11, 2007
  7. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Dilemma

    I have noted that the merest suggestion of fraud is enough to confiscate players' winnings. Often, even providing ID documents cuts no ice with casinos. The fact that the deposits were not actually taken automatically voids winnings. There have been cases where players have deposited in good faith and won, then their BANK, for some reason, decides to block the transactions. The casinos involved have ruled that all the play was voided, and no winnings were to be paid. Even where the player offered to make good the deposit by forcing it through to the casino by a different method, the casinos decided not to pay on the grounds that the player ONLY made such an offer because they had won, and would have not done so had they lost.

    Since it was the casinos choice to void the deposits, all wagers thus become void at that point, this includes both winning ones, and losing ones. The casinos have LOST NOTHING, it is not as though they have paid a withdrawal and then found the deposits not to be good. If players make such stupid mistakes, they have to bear the loss of what could have been, suhc as a substantial win, same here for the casino, they could have won 1700, but they made a stupid mistake, so they should be treated just like the player. In such cases, the reputable sector place the player back to where they were before the mistake, so there is no reason why this should not be applied to the casino. The position before the mistake, of course, was neither casino nor player having lost. A return to the starting point would be the re-depositing of the 2000 credits, and the casino being offered another chance to win from the player from that starting point. This was good enough for a player at Trident Lounge, and is thus good enough for a casino where the situation is reversed.
    This should teach this casino a lesson, make sure CS get it right. The player who lost $8000 for their silly mistake certainly learned a hard lesson, probably more so had the casino in this case paid up and said "we forgive, don't do it again". The player in this case never actually lost, they just lost what vould have been, the $8000 win. They got to start again with their original bankroll.

    Perhaps if casinos took a more humane attitude to these exceptional circumstances, rather than hold rigidly to the worst "punishment" available in the terms and conditions, players may feel inclined to be lenient to a casino that made a silly mistake.
    Naturally, the casinos could refuse to open the account under these terms, but this would be their right, and neither player nor casino would have lost anything - it would have just been like a session of guest play, and cost the casino little to provide.
     
    2 people like this.
  8. Mar 11, 2007
  9. lojo

    lojo Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Tradesman
    Location:
    USA
    I guess my naivity was in wondering 'would they have paid you had you won'. I've never experienced this situation. I hope my post didn't seem condescending or patronising, Julester. Many more opinions to come, and lots to learn (for me).
     
  10. Mar 11, 2007
  11. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    What an unusual occurrence! Never heard of that before.

    Totally agree with VWM, it's not like the casino actually lost anything - except a potential high-roller player.
    You made the deposits in good faith - it's not your fault they were cancelled.

    You should absolutely NOT pay them a single cent.
     
  12. Mar 12, 2007
  13. julester

    julester Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Director
    Location:
    London
    Thank you all....

    ....for your responses. Very useful information / opinions - much appreciated.

    To clarify a few points :

    1. The casino in question is accredited and to be fair, their attitude was totally spot on.

    2. They didn't actually 'suspend' my account until some hours after I had stopped playing. Assuming that everything was totally 'above board', I had already lost (or potentially could have won) at that point. Therefore, they would argue that I was not playing with 'free' money / practice play etc. and should pay up on that basis. However, the fact is that the casino management deemed the credit card transactions fraudelent. They had the opportunity to pull the plug immediately...but didn't. That is not my fault and they let me 'deposit' and 'lose' money that wasn't actually there. My gut feeling is that had I finished the night ahead, they WOULD have paid up on receipt of my correct ID and re-depositing the amount owed (bizarre).

    One thing is for certain, this issue is not of my own making. I made deposits in good faith, they rejected them, let me play with the 'money', suspended the account and now want me to pay for the losses. Ethics don't really come into it (I think). We all make mistakes and their mistake has cost them 'technically' but potentially saved me 'factually' circa $2,000.

    This forum is brilliant - thanks for listening.
     
  14. Mar 12, 2007
  15. mikepipe

    mikepipe Dormant account

    Occupation:
    owner
    Location:
    still progressing
    and one last point: if the casino is accredited, you should PM their Rep. (under casino contacts) and tell him the story - and additionally give him a hint to read the thread (you didnt name the place, so he might mis it).
     
  16. Mar 12, 2007
  17. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Gut Feeling

    My gut feeling is you would have had a devil of a job getting them to reverse their decision had you ended up with a significant win, say, a few thousand. They could have quoted T & C and voided the winning wagers, and then offered you a bonus on your next deposit after you had proved your ID.
    In many cases, proving yourself to be a real person with ID is not the issue, casinos will also look for "connected players", "shared IP addresses", among other factors. Even IF you redeposited the amounts, there is nothing to stop them being charged back later, so it is unlikely the casino would have released winnings to a player considered to be using a stolen card simply because they deposited again to release a larger sum of winnings.
    This scenario has happened before, except it was the players' bank that did not honour the deposits. The player won, but the casino would not even consider releasing the winnings from the original voided deposits even when the player offered to pay the amounts again in order to release the larger sum of winnings.
    The best this casino can hope for is to reach a settlement that gives them another chance to win the money. Even the accredited RTG outfits seem to be "pulling stunts" with a few players (if the players are telling the whole truth) that would not be expected of a provider such as Microgaming.
     
  18. Mar 12, 2007
  19. tennis_balls

    tennis_balls Dormant account

    Occupation:
    fish n chips promoter
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM
    I would check to see if they put their audited payout percentages on their website.

    If they don't, then I could think of 1,700 reasons not to pay them.
     
  20. Mar 12, 2007
  21. mikepipe

    mikepipe Dormant account

    Occupation:
    owner
    Location:
    still progressing
    jap- and there are very few RTGs, which provide this information.
    My bet is: this place doesnt.:)
     
  22. Mar 12, 2007
  23. amatrine

    amatrine Crazy Cat Lady webmeister

    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Arizona City, Az
    Re

    I suppose it would depend if I wanted to keep playing at this place.

    If its acredited, and a place I want to play at in the future, I would try to reach a settlement.

    Ama
     
  24. Mar 12, 2007
  25. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    This is exactly right. All bets were void and I am surprised they have even asked you to pay.
    Have to agree with VW and KK too and lojo your post was good.
     
    1 person likes this.
  26. Mar 12, 2007
  27. julester

    julester Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Director
    Location:
    London
    OK, I have made my decision.....

    ....I will not pay and write to the company this week explaining my position on this. I will post the letter and hopefully the response on this forum.

    All of your support, information, insight has been invaluable - thanks very much.

    Being really cynical, having now proved my identity to the casino in question, wouldn't you (i.e. the casino management) be tempted to put through the transactions again...???!!! I have learnt a few lessons over this :

    1. RTG may be tempting but are not a patch (in my opinion) over MG.

    2. UK players check the withdrawal policies before you play. This particular casino were only offering Western Union transfers which can be a bit of a nightmare over here...and take there time.

    3. Terms and conditions work both ways - I have actually done nothing wrong. Deposited money in good faith and the casino has cancelled the deposits. Whether they have done it before or after I lost or potentially won money is irrelevant.

    Have a good week all of you...this one may keep rolling!
     
  28. Mar 12, 2007
  29. julester

    julester Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Director
    Location:
    London
    Also to add.....

    ...I cannot find any RTG statistics on the site - in fact there is very little information about the casino part of the site!
     
  30. Mar 12, 2007
  31. mikepipe

    mikepipe Dormant account

    Occupation:
    owner
    Location:
    still progressing
    Inded, VIP is honest and trustworthy ... but sometimes they have deficits in organization.
     
  32. Mar 12, 2007
  33. Tagdog

    Tagdog Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Sales
    Location:
    England
    As far as I would be concerned, you never bought the chips, so you lost 1700play for fun chips is a very justifyable argument you could make.

    I guess it comes down to 3 things,

    1/ What probability would you put on them paying you if you were +$1700, if you genuinely think this is low then I wouldn't pay them.

    2/ If you think they would have paid you, but you have no moral hangups about screwing a casino over then screw them over. If you do have hangups and then pay.

    3/If you cant afford to pay them dont.
     
  34. Mar 12, 2007
  35. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Right move!

    WHAT!!!! Only WU for the UK!!!!!!!!
    No info on the site about them!
    Looks to me like you had a narrow escape. I very much doubt they would pay up had you won and then offered to make good the deposits in order to get paid.
    The fact they have your ID means nothing, the debt is not enforceable since it is both gambling related, and it was the CASINO that voided the transactions.
    They may very well try to put the transactions through again, and unless the card company have been formally notified, they will most likely go through. The card company will most likely think you are just playing there again.
    It may be helpful to name this casino, since it does not sound like any of the accredited RTG sites here, as I have played a couple of them and they accept all the normal eWallet methods for both deposits and withdrawals.
    The worst you should get is the casino insisting on sending a cheque if you have only deposited from a credit card. Many casinos, both reputable and dodgy, do not refund to credit cards at all. A few can refund to UK cards however.
     
  36. Mar 12, 2007
  37. mikepipe

    mikepipe Dormant account

    Occupation:
    owner
    Location:
    still progressing
    sure- its better, to name it - on the other hand: OP has mentioned the casino part of the sited. So the only thing, we have to do is carefully looking whoch of the - not so many - RTGs has another part, lets - only as an example - say: sportsbook.

    :D
     
  38. Mar 13, 2007
  39. julester

    julester Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Director
    Location:
    London
    You will appreciate.....

    ....that I would prefer to get the matter totally resolved before naming and shaming. Let's just say that cats might not like this particular site...

    What I would say (see previous post) is that they have been totally professional throughout and courteous....although they do want my money! I have to say, this is one of the most bizarre things I have come accross in online gaming to-date.
     

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