Question What To Do When Gambling Operators Don't Pay?

jjb1986

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 12, 2016
Location
UK
Hi Guys,

I'm from the UK, I'm actually an affiliate for gambling companies and have experience with marketing them etc... but that's not the issue here. Anyway, a family member wanted to get in on the action the start of the football season, and I suggested TonyBet as they were running a promotion at the time, she placed some bets (she only knows 1 or 2 football team), it was seen as a bit of fun with all the hype. She ended up winning, and placing a few bets herself after that night - long story short she had a balance of £499.40.

Upon signing up to TonyBet they ask for ID and other verification documents, to which she sent. Anyway, she tried to withdraw and they said she needed to send documents. She did again - a few weeks went past and she seen the cash never went in, so she sent an email and they said they never received them... so again she sent them off. Next they got back asking for a phone call, and she had the phone call, they asked some security questions etc to which she answered. Some questions she couldn't full answer like all the bets she placed (I think she only remembered one or 2). Anyhow, she passed it but they sent an email to say they won't be paying out and will be refunding the cash of the initial deposit due to third party activity. It's strange as she lives on her own, but she did probably signup when other users were around but that shouldn't make a difference as I'm sure that happens a lot.

Anyhow, she tried ringing (they don't have a UK number, so it's costing lots) - but the support staff are utterly terrible and not helpful at all. Even there emails are coming across a bit sarcastic and unprofessional now. So, I kind of feel responsible for suggesting them, as an affiliate I've taken down their links and wrote some horrible reviews on some of my websites, and slated them on Facebook and twitter (replying to customer queries and telling them not to use them, which seems to be working) - I've even started the hashtag #TonyBetScam and had a few decent retweets etc... Also feel a bit bad, as the social media guy/girl isn't the person who I've got beef with but I'm giving them a hard time trying to keep up with my activity on their accounts and starting hashtags and what not.

My question is, what can I do? they seem to be a bit shady and unprofessional - I've been around the industry awhile, and I've never ran into something as dodgy as this from a licensed operator.

Any advice?
 

spintee

Ueber Meister
webby
mm2
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Location
Northants
Tonybet from my experience is not a problem,

Where did she sign up from? did she use one of your affiliate links? was it from the same computer ? IP ? as yours

Many questions here, But on the site it should tell you who to make a complaint too
 

jjb1986

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 12, 2016
Location
UK
Nop, she never used my affiliate links as I'm not sure it's allowed to that with family members - It was only a word of mouth recommendation. To be honest, I've never had a problem with them in the past - I was thinking maybe they're in trouble because they sold their Lithuanian side of the business to Betsson - I'm not 100% sure what IP she used, it could of been in my office when we were talking about it, or at home - I cannot remember. Regardless, that shouldn't really make a difference as when I was living at home I had a Bet365 account with other family.

On top of that, the customer support agent hung up twice as soon as the word 'withdraw issue' was mentioned, and the live chat is never available it seems (although it used to be)
 

spintee

Ueber Meister
webby
mm2
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Location
Northants
Nop, she never used my affiliate links as I'm not sure it's allowed to that with family members - It was only a word of mouth recommendation. To be honest, I've never had a problem with them in the past - I was thinking maybe they're in trouble because they sold their Lithuanian side of the business to Betsson - I'm not 100% sure what IP she used, it could of been in my office when we were talking about it, or at home - I cannot remember. Regardless, that shouldn't really make a difference as when I was living at home I had a Bet365 account with other family.

On top of that, the customer support agent hung up twice as soon as the word 'withdraw issue' was mentioned, and the live chat is never available it seems (although it used to be)

Some site allow IPS to be register , Some not, jonmincher has a few due to he and hes other half play from same place,

Some sites are tight on this, Its the sign ups that really matter, If they sign up from a complete different IP and addressee but used other computers IP that signed up to play than alot would not mind, But there is the trouble, I did ask about the IP and where they signed up from and your response is that they could of singed from same place,

This is where the trouble could lie, Not only that but could put your affiliation in bother, Best to talk to affiliate manger on this one
 

jjb1986

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 12, 2016
Location
UK
Hi mate, thanks for taking the time to respond - it's appreciated. Their response was that someone else was using her account. Fair enough if they wish to ban the account because they believe its sharing the same IP, but to withhold £500 is a bit too far. I never got her signed up using my affiliate link, I merely said try signing up to tonybet, they've got a signup offer, other people were there and I believe at least one other signed up - whom never won as much, but cashed out £20. This is where my issue now lies - the bookmaker is picking and choosing who they will pay, along with accusing them of sharing their account. I've never heard of so much bull - why bother asking for ID on numerous occasions, and taking the time to have a phone call with her? This was just a stalling process, hoping she'd wager the money - but she never, so they took it anyway.

My affiliation like wasn't in any trouble, but I've decided to take all their affiliation links from our site (still a few old offers I have to remove), and mailed my 12,000+ subscribers to make them aware of the issue - I'm sure that in itself will cost them more than the £500. But, so be it.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
She would have to use the ADR service listed on their site, following which she would be free to make a claim for this £500 in court if the ADR fails to deliver, where they would have to produce a good reason for not honouring the bet and evidence to back it up. The decision would be "balance of probability", and given that she has passed initial KYC, and even kept passing their enhanced checks where they phoned and asked a load of questions, they would have an uphill struggle proving that this wasn't her, as after all, they did decide it WAS her after conducting KYC and taking bets.

It seems most operators pay up once they realise they are going to have to convince a judge that they have good grounds for not paying, but it seems most players just walk away from their money if the operator refuses to pay up, so overall it's less costly to pay up to avoid going through court, but not pay up whilst there is still the opportunity for the player to give up.

We have even seen operators taking dodgy players to court rather than walking away from the money and chalking it up to experience as they once had to do when it was "the wild west" of dodgy operator vs dodgy player.
 

jjb1986

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 12, 2016
Location
UK
Hi,

This is really good advice, thank you so much - I don't know what ADR is, but I'm looking for it. Thank you!

She would have to use the ADR service listed on their site, following which she would be free to make a claim for this £500 in court if the ADR fails to deliver, where they would have to produce a good reason for not honouring the bet and evidence to back it up. The decision would be "balance of probability", and given that she has passed initial KYC, and even kept passing their enhanced checks where they phoned and asked a load of questions, they would have an uphill struggle proving that this wasn't her, as after all, they did decide it WAS her after conducting KYC and taking bets.

It seems most operators pay up once they realise they are going to have to convince a judge that they have good grounds for not paying, but it seems most players just walk away from their money if the operator refuses to pay up, so overall it's less costly to pay up to avoid going through court, but not pay up whilst there is still the opportunity for the player to give up.

We have even seen operators taking dodgy players to court rather than walking away from the money and chalking it up to experience as they once had to do when it was "the wild west" of dodgy operator vs dodgy player.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Hi,

This is really good advice, thank you so much - I don't know what ADR is, but I'm looking for it. Thank you!

ADR = Alternative Dispute Resolution. ALL UK gambling operators MUST have at least one. The outcome of an ADR is not binding on the player, but the operator is expected to consider it binding upon themselves. Since the operator is in control of who acts as ADR, the player can still use the courts if they don't feel the ADR outcome is fair, and then it's a matter for the court and whether in law the operator must pay up. For claims up to £10,000 the small claims court would be used, a relatively low cost option for the player, however if the court finds in the player's favour, the operator will have a CCJ recorded against them, even if they then pay up. This seems to be something operators fear, so they will only allow a case to go through court if they are pretty sure they will win.

Some while ago Betfair confiscated winnings from players (Happy Hour fiasco), and even gave Max the "talk to the hand" treatment, but where they had taken money from UK players' sports wallet, which was UK licensed, these players had the option to pursue Betfair through court. Those that did never went before a judge because Betfair paid up, either in full or via a deal negotiated with players out of court. There was most likely a "gagging order" imposed as part of these settlements, which is why you don't see players posting on the internet about having made Betfair pay up.

£500 is well within the small claims bracket, but too big to simply walk away from without putting up a decent fight.

Another thing that may deter operators from allowing such cases to make it through court is disclosure, they will have to supply all that "commercially sensitive" evidence used to determine that the player was guilty of breaching the terms to the player concerned, or their solicitor if they have one. This may make operators pay up relatively small sums even where they feel they have a decent chance of winning.
 

jjb1986

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 12, 2016
Location
UK
Hey, I cannot thank you enough for this advise. They have released the initial deposit of £250 - but in fact they've only released £244, so that's something at least! but still £250 missing, taking it to a small claims court would probably cost her more than the £250 though, right? Funnily enough on their Facebook, there has been quite a few complaints - to which I have jumped in and put my comment forward
 
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