What to do for help against Lock?

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
umm im just wondering would it be possible that a wireless user logged on from his unlocked modem signal ?? just brain storming thats all ??

ps of course thats if he is wireless and the idea has merit

If this was the ONLY linking evidence Lock had, then they should NOT have considered this good enough to cry "fraud".

Referring the cases to CDS will only work if CDS pulls it's finger out and shows it gives a damn about PLAYERS. Many get the impression that they don't even bother to investigate complaints unless they are constantly harrassed, and even when they do, they simply "rubber stamp" the casino's decision. CDS also seem to lack any real power to MAKE an operator abide by any of it's decisions.

The two players with issues at Lock have STILL heard nothing back from CDS, and this only serves to make other players wary about playing at the casino, or indeed ANY RTG casino.

Before claiming fraud, they should be sure it really IS the same player using more than one account, and NOT merely a coincidence of circumstances creating spurious "links" between DIFFERENT players.

The same betting patterns may be down to the players being referred by the SAME FORUM, usually a "bonus beating" one. Whilst this is not the kind of customer the casino prefers, the CASINO is quite happy to pay the AFFILIATE for referring the "bonus whores" from their site. Casinos are SUPPOSED to be vetting the sites that are allowed to be used for affiliate referral (it's in the affiliate terms), and surely they could lessen the problems by not allowing "bonus beating" forums to post methods that are against the casino's terms (such as a guide on running multiple accounts, and getting away with it). Offending affiliates would have THEIR balances confiscated, and contract terminated.
 

Cabrair32

Banned User - bogus PAB - player fraud
PABnoaccred
PABnorogue
Joined
Jul 21, 2010
Location
Pennsylvania
I was kicked out on the same date as RacefanRob. I put in a complaint to cds. no reply. I do have a personal friend who is a newer member here who told me to join and tell about this. He has a complaint with cds and is worried to post for fear of ruining his chances at resolve. I don't really give a care about posting so I agreed to share this. I played there. I din't have a bonus or anything but played and had over 500bucks in my account and they locked it and I got the same email stating promotion abuse. I didnt have any promotion to abuse so go figure. I have no idea who racefanrob, Kraya
or smittytime is. I do know that there are 4 of us from my neck of the woods who all got kicked out that are friends and hang out. 2 of us never complained because they lost and had no complaint. I put in a cds complaint and heard nothing. The other member here who asked me to tell this submitted a cds complaint and like me, never heard back so he resubmitted a few days ago and actually got acknowledgement of his complaint where as I never did. So I might do it again but in the meantime I am posting it here.
As far as doing anything wrong to get kicked out and multiple accouts and all that stuff - its garbage. is there a rule against people who know each other playing at a casino? if so then we should be kicked out of about 5 casinos right now. We never played together from the same house or business or cafe. We all have seperate accuonts and are all diffrent people. I think they just didnt want to pay me or my friend and made up an excuse since we are all from the same area and we all played blackjack.
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
Casinos are always offering "Refer a friend" bonus, and naturally when we win we are excited and tell our friends and family.

One of my real life friends that had only played poker online joined 32Red after my $5K win.

Some smaller areas only have one primary internet service provider that everyone uses.

It's not unheard of for rental accommodation to offer "free cable and internet".

It's very very hard to prove a negative... what resources does a player have to prove they are not the owner of multiple accounts?

I recall one a while ago where two people from the same small town in Germany perhaps were blocked for multiple accounts... I think that one had a happy ending.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
...
I never responded or cared because I had not won anything and figured they were doing me a favor by kicking me out of the casino. I play a lot and if they don't want my business then I don't really care. If I had a bunch of funds seized when they did that then I would have been here so fast ranting it would have made heads spin. It never crossed my mind to complain because I didn't lose anything...
Maybe you should have responded. Nine times out of ten when a casino locks an account and the player doesn't respond, they assume they were correct in doing so. It may not be too late to shoot them off an email, winnings or no winnings.

I was kicked out on the same date as RacefanRob...
Did you respond to the casino's "locking" the account email? If not, why not?

One of the reasons why we referred this to CDS is that they can go into the backend - we can't. The casino shows us 12 accounts that have been closed - all being connected - and no one responded to their closure email. I would say that's a bit suspicious, especially if we are dealing with twelve individuals. People who are not associated with one another usually do their own thing, they don't act in a cohesive manner.

It's a shame that CDS is not responding. I've been too busy dealing with some tech issues over the past two days, so I haven't been able to chase this up. I'll do this now.
 

Cabrair32

Banned User - bogus PAB - player fraud
PABnoaccred
PABnorogue
Joined
Jul 21, 2010
Location
Pennsylvania
Did you respond to the casino's "locking" the account email? If not, why not?

One of the reasons why we referred this to CDS is that they can go into the backend - we can't. The casino shows us 12 accounts that have been closed - all being connected - and no one responded to their closure email. I would say that's a bit suspicious, especially if we are dealing with twelve individuals. People who are not associated with one another usually do their own thing, they don't act in a cohesive manner.

It's a shame that CDS is not responding. I've been too busy dealing with some tech issues over the past two days, so I haven't been able to chase this up. I'll do this now.

Hi :notworthy It is neat to kinda talk to you
No, I never responded to the email because they didn't ask me for a response plus my friend who is a member here did email them and go on live chat and i already knew what was going on and what they would say. I didn't know what this place here on your forum was and in the email they gave a choice i think of eiher coming here and complaining or going to cds so I chose cds. I don't know really what backend and that stuff is All I can tell you is that YES I know 3 others that played at Lock and were kicked out and NO we didn't cheat and they are all seperate accoutns from seperate people in seperate homes. Should I resubmit to cds or should I do your form complaint here? or are they so far gone that it doesnt matter anymore? thanks for taking interest in my post meister.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
Go ahead and PAB since CDS seems a little backed up :rolleyes:
 

smittytime

Dormant account
PABnoaccred
Joined
May 19, 2010
Location
USA
I had never gotten a confirmation from my last CDS complaint with Lock. I went ahead and just a few moments ago resubmitted another complaint and asked them to send me an email verification of receipt.
They did this time. I was thinking that the only way to submit a pab against lock is that the URL they give in their email has a special code attached at the end. This is only good for Lock casino and no other casino. So, Perhaps they were not getting the complaints from this special URL prior to now? Regardless, I resubmitted and explained that I had submitted earlier also. Hopefully something happens quickly this time.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Maybe you should have responded. Nine times out of ten when a casino locks an account and the player doesn't respond, they assume they were correct in doing so. It may not be too late to shoot them off an email, winnings or no winnings.


Did you respond to the casino's "locking" the account email? If not, why not?

One of the reasons why we referred this to CDS is that they can go into the backend - we can't. The casino shows us 12 accounts that have been closed - all being connected - and no one responded to their closure email. I would say that's a bit suspicious, especially if we are dealing with twelve individuals. People who are not associated with one another usually do their own thing, they don't act in a cohesive manner.

It's a shame that CDS is not responding. I've been too busy dealing with some tech issues over the past two days, so I haven't been able to chase this up. I'll do this now.

Hi :notworthy It is neat to kinda talk to you
No, I never responded to the email because they didn't ask me for a response plus my friend who is a member here did email them and go on live chat and i already knew what was going on and what they would say. I didn't know what this place here on your forum was and in the email they gave a choice i think of eiher coming here and complaining or going to cds so I chose cds. I don't know really what backend and that stuff is All I can tell you is that YES I know 3 others that played at Lock and were kicked out and NO we didn't cheat and they are all seperate accoutns from seperate people in seperate homes. Should I resubmit to cds or should I do your form complaint here? or are they so far gone that it doesnt matter anymore? thanks for taking interest in my post meister.

This looks like the problem. The closure emails do not ask for a response, so it should be no surprise that players who didn't have winnings confiscated didn't bother arguing their case. The closure emails need to be redesigned so that it is CLEAR that a response is desirable, and only THEN can anything be read into the fact that a player decides not to want to clear their name.

There is also a claim from a player who took no bonuses, but was accused of "promotional abuse", and had their account locked.

This case does need looking into, since we have to be sure that Lock are not getting things wrong and kicking out innocent players along with the fraudsters.

Players being friends, and coming from the same town is NOT evidence of fraud, it is simply an indication that "refer a friend" is working as it should.

Rather than simply telling losing players their accounts have been locked, they should request verification documents from suspicious accounts, and THEN close them if the request is ignored, or the documents do not appear genuine. An HONEST player is likely to respond to such a request, even if it is to complain that documents are being requested too early. A fraudster who has no balance is highly unlikely to respond to this, since it would mean them having to "waste" a false set of ID documents to verify an account that has not "produced".

I would have expected Lock to have done their due diligence in the "back end" before branding these players as frauds, it should NOT be something that ONLY gets done when CDS become involved.

"refer a friend" should be ditched altogether, since it ENCOURAGES the very connections that might appear to indicate fraud, where there is a sudden influx of players from a small area, all of whom have been GENUINELY referred by a friend, but whom the casino cannot really tell apart from a pattern indicative of multiple account fraud.
 

smittytime

Dormant account
PABnoaccred
Joined
May 19, 2010
Location
USA
...And this is why nobody trusts online casinos.

I got a reply back from Hastings disputes finally :rolleyes:

They say that they have gotten documentation from the casino operator to support their claim and that they are ruling in favor of them. Meanwhile I am willing to appear on webcam, go to a court and put my hand in the air and swear or send them anything that they want.... but NOOOOO.... these lying scumbags just keep all of my deposits and all of my winnings and I am stolen from with no recourse. Why would anyone even bother playing at online casinos anymore? accredited or not they still steal. This fake CDS thing could NOT have really looked into this. They asked ME for nothing and are just going to take the lying operators word for it. What a load of crap. They kick people out and keep their money and nobody can do anything about it. Online gambling is not worth the risk if you risk your money on a less than 50/50 chance of winning... then DO actually win and they keep your money anyways. What a joke.
 

smittytime

Dormant account
PABnoaccred
Joined
May 19, 2010
Location
USA
They can check IP addresses, they can check Mac addresses they can check my home they can check my documents... nothing is illegal or fraudulent about me. They sure didn't seem to think so back In February when I was losing. all of the sudden I win and they are claiming this load of bull. I hate online casinos.
 

takethemoney

Banned User - Chargebacks at Slotastic
Joined
Apr 14, 2004
Location
Washington
Another casino that is gone from the accredited list and probably going out of business. I used to play there but after the processor fiasco, or whatever bullshit story they made up, I swore them off forever. The reason I considered their excuse bs is that I can't believe any business person would keep all their funds in one processor, so they'd be unable to immediately pay off players they owed. I don't believe for a minute they were ever sufficiently capitalized. The red flag for me was when they started paying people off in installments. This casino will either fold or sell.
 

liquuid_fusion

Meister Member
PABaccred
PABnorogue
PABnononaccred2
Joined
Nov 6, 2005
Location
UK
I've not been paid yet.

Non-bonus deposit, UK player, Neteller, been waiting patiently since late May.
 

reda

Senior Member
PABnonaccred
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Location
HOUSTON
i have read this entire thread and i may be naive but for some reason i believe smittyville and the others that came on here and complained.
when lock was removed off the accredited list here i imedialtley deleted them off my computer and have never looked back. now i know i made the right choice. its a shame players have to deal with this type of circumstances. this player is accused of being guilty of fraud and the player here( smittyville) is almost begging for some sort of proof from the casino to show this to him but yet the casino wont even respond. then CDS didnt even ask for proof of any sort. seems you just have to throw in the towel and give up. 2.000 dollars is a lot of money . and its hard to just walk away . in feb smittyville recieved his winnings. and lock has been taking his money since then. how come 6 months later they never told him he couldnt dep anymore?? why not tell him in this space of time they were closing his account due to fraud? At least then there would be no real money at stake in his account. but NOOO it wasnt until he had a 2.000 dollar withdrawl then it all comes out. Thats just my opinion. rant is over.
 

smittytime

Dormant account
PABnoaccred
Joined
May 19, 2010
Location
USA
i have read this entire thread and i may be naive but for some reason i believe smittyville and the others that came on here and complained.
when lock was removed off the accredited list here i imedialtley deleted them off my computer and have never looked back. now i know i made the right choice. its a shame players have to deal with this type of circumstances. this player is accused of being guilty of fraud and the player here( smittyville) is almost begging for some sort of proof from the casino to show this to him but yet the casino wont even respond. then CDS didnt even ask for proof of any sort. seems you just have to throw in the towel and give up. 2.000 dollars is a lot of money . and its hard to just walk away . in feb smittyville recieved his winnings. and lock has been taking his money since then. how come 6 months later they never told him he couldnt dep anymore?? why not tell him in this space of time they were closing his account due to fraud? At least then there would be no real money at stake in his account. but NOOO it wasnt until he had a 2.000 dollar withdrawl then it all comes out. Thats just my opinion. rant is over.


Thank you Reda! You are one of the few people who seem to "get it".

I have said from the beginning that I am willing to go live on webcam, to let them virtually look at my computer and see that there is only one casino account from me and as a matter of fact, while I am typing this I just thought:

I have a IP address that has never changed!! My IP has always been the same for months and months. So it would be IMPOSSIBLE for someone else to even have the same IP address correct? That should be proof in the bag right there! I have been using the same IP address forever and nobody would have used the same IP address unless they broke into my home and hooked up their pc to my modem and played at Lock just to screw me LOL! What a joke. This proof MUST be easily available to them. This makes me even more angry when I think of the obvious theft that is going on here with me. The proof that I am only one person and have not committed fraud should be undisputable at this point now that I think of it.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Thank you Reda! You are one of the few people who seem to "get it".

I have said from the beginning that I am willing to go live on webcam, to let them virtually look at my computer and see that there is only one casino account from me and as a matter of fact, while I am typing this I just thought:

I have a IP address that has never changed!! My IP has always been the same for months and months. So it would be IMPOSSIBLE for someone else to even have the same IP address correct? That should be proof in the bag right there! I have been using the same IP address forever and nobody would have used the same IP address unless they broke into my home and hooked up their pc to my modem and played at Lock just to screw me LOL! What a joke. This proof MUST be easily available to them. This makes me even more angry when I think of the obvious theft that is going on here with me. The proof that I am only one person and have not committed fraud should be undisputable at this point now that I think of it.


Well, you are in the USA, so the casinos has also "acted illegally" in taking your deposits, and allowing you to play. In the eyes of your government, they are criminals, yet in the eyes of the government from where they operate, they are doing nothing wrong.

What I can't understand is how an EXISTING player is no fraud for 6 months, and even gets paid several times, and is suddenly a fraud when they win again after a losing run.

I too have been investigated a few times, and in each case it was a MISTAKE. These fraud detection systems are seriously flawed, and there is little real comeback for players if the "official" adjudicators side with the operator.

CDS are not really independent. eCogra take on player disputes, and find for the player almost 50% of the time, and deal with REPUTABLE casinos.

CDS deal with RTG casinos, among them many rogue operators, yet they side with the player hardly at all. I simply don't believe that eCogra sealholders can get it wrong 40% to 50% of the time, and RTG casinos barely get it wrong 10% of the time, rogues included.

Most RTG casinos are not even licensed properly, they operate on a "company license", rather than a GAMING license, from Costa Rica.

UIGEA has driven almost all the reputable casinos out of the US, leaving RTG with a huge slice of the action.
 

Kenny Lingus

Tard Counter
Joined
Dec 24, 2006
Location
Near Chicago, Illinois
Two points here.

First of all, this is exactly why players should support up-front documentation. Any casino that required docs up-front before, say, the second deposit (or cashout on the original deposit) would eliminate most of the problems of the type experienced by the OP.

Secondly, this is really troubling to see from a previously accredited casino:

"Lock Casino Terms & Conditions:

Lock Casino reserves the right, in its total discretion, to void any winnings and withhold any balance in Lock Casino account under any of the following circumstances:

j. If the player is found to be using practices that have been deemed to be "Promotion Abuse"."

In the "Standards for Accredited Casinos" section of this website, in the "Operational Standards" list, it says:

"Must not confiscate winnings for vague & unclear reasons, such as "irregular playing patterns" or "bonus abuse", without specific T&C violations."

So how did they ever become accredited, considering their T&Cs?
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Thank you.


Well, I have PERSONAL experience of this. Prime casino (where I have played for YEARS) paid my penultimate withdrawal for £6000+ without problems, as they have always done. I then cashed in my comps, got £30 & managed to work it up to £500 ON SLOTS ONLY, and withdrew having met WR. I heard nothing, and got nothing, for over a week. I queried this, and was told I was "under investigation".

I told them they had 14 days to conclude this, or I would ask eCogra to intervene since "deadlock" would be reached (defined as 14 days or more of getting nowhere with internal procedures). I was paid the next day, and uninstalled the casino.

Before this, Spin Palace asked for more documents after I had been playing for some YEARS. I contacted the rep, who admitted it was down to a mix-up of my account with that of another player with a SIMILAR (not the SAME) name.

Rushmore was cast into the pit for making such a mistake, and then refusing to budge when it was clearly demonstrated that a mistake HAD been made.

The casino has this "information", but none of it is 100% reliable. It is all based on probability flagging, and NOT 100% accurate data & verifiable documentation.

An example might be where they consider the probability that the same geographical location will generate more than x new players in a period of y weeks. If so many new players (x) sign up that the probability of this happening "by chance" gets too low, the accounts are flagged for further study in case there are players opening multiple accounts.

This can work pretty well as an INDICATOR, but what about when this happens in the same place as a long standing existing player, who has presumably already been verified. WHY do they ASSUME this loyal player is involved, rather than this being a number of fraudulent, but UNCONNECTED players, scamming the casino.

There is NEVER any proof presented in such cases, and "hearings" are held in secret, with the accused barred from hearing the evidence, let alone challenging it. We have to trust the adjudicators, who often DO get to see the evidence.

This works well for casinos, because if they had such cases heard in the courts, they would have to show their evidence to the accused (or their lawyer), and the accused could offer explanations to the presiding judge as to why he was NOT a fraud, even though the evidence suggested he might be.

My concern is that in my case I was FULLY VERIFIED, and even a VIP at Spin Palace Group, yet this offered NO protection from being tangled up in fraud investigations involving NEW players.

When players are "verified", we want a GUARANTEE that the casino now trusts us 100%, and will forever more honour our winnings, as they would take our losses, so long as the relationship lasts.

Casinos seem "hurt" when it seems that however hard they try, however accredited they become, there remain those players who say they will NEVER trust them. It is therefore hypocritical that they NEVER 100% trust their EXISTING players, no matter HOW verified they are, and how long they have been playing.
 

all4greed

Now we can do business.
Joined
Jul 18, 2004
Location
Pacific NW
...And this is why nobody trusts online casinos.

I got a reply back from Hastings disputes finally :rolleyes:

They say that they have gotten documentation from the casino operator to support their claim and that they are ruling in favor of them....

I've reread this complete thread. Before I write anything else, did Hastings tell you exactly what the documentation showed?
 

smittytime

Dormant account
PABnoaccred
Joined
May 19, 2010
Location
USA
I've reread this complete thread. Before I write anything else, did Hastings tell you exactly what the documentation showed?


No not at all.
Actually, I tried to respond to them and when I attempt to via the website it will not submit my response. It is when you click on the "button" to hit send it doesnt respond. So I sent an email reply. Basically I outlined that their findings are just wrong and asked what they needed from me for proof. I also wanted to mention that if they actually investigated truly they would find that I have no link possible from my ewallet to my bank to my Ip to my mac to myself to any other account. However, since ruling on Lock's word they have yet to respond again. The bottom line is that if they or anyone else does a real investigation I will be proven innocent 100% no doubts, I'll bet anything on it because I know it to be for a fact.
 

all4greed

Now we can do business.
Joined
Jul 18, 2004
Location
Pacific NW
I honestly don't understand the fact that you can't get specifics on what the allegations were. Where's their proof? They need to prove to you that something indeed happened beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Are you not the customer?
 
Top