What Is "Random" ?

Hello
this is a topic that can realy wind me up, My two bobs worth is that casinos should use hardware based RNG's not software suedo RNG's but as casino's are largely unregulated i think we will see suedo Rngs continue.
Commonly known as pseudo RNGs. The type of RNG is not really an issue, if a casino wants to cheat, the easiest way to do it is when converting the random numbers into cards, slots symbols, etc. Does anyone know whether Las Vegas casinos are required to use real random numbers in their machines?
 
Nevada gaming control is really strict about that sort of thing.

Actually, I think every state-license casino uses a "real" RNG, in every state. The only thing you may have to look out is I've heard of "video poker" or "video blackjack" machines that don't actually use a real deck of cards, they're basically slots with the odds predetermined (and much lower than a real VP or BJ game), and the cards are just decorative. I think these are no-fly in Nevada, but I saw them mentioned in one state where min slot payout was incredibly low.
 
While I don't wan't to stop this line of debate, I'd like to remind ppl that the original question was not whether casinos cheat on the games, but what constitutues "random".

Another example. Mr. X has 5 envelopes containing 1, 5, 10, 20 and 100. He decides to dish these out to 5 people on the street, however he decides to do it in ascending order of value. Assuming its simply the first 5 people to walk past his house who pay him 10 to pick an envelope, person 1 gets 1 and person 5 gets 100. Would you consider that a random distribution?

Now, Mr Dodgy Casino Manager "fixes" it so that the next 4 spins of Thunderstruck will be zilch, and the 5th is 3 Hammers. Is that random?
 
While I don't wan't to stop this line of debate, I'd like to remind ppl that the original question was not whether casinos cheat on the games, but what constitutues "random".

Another example. Mr. X has 5 envelopes containing 1, 5, 10, 20 and 100. He decides to dish these out to 5 people on the street, however he decides to do it in ascending order of value. Assuming its simply the first 5 people to walk past his house who pay him 10 to pick an envelope, person 1 gets 1 and person 5 gets 100. Would you consider that a random distribution?

Now, Mr Dodgy Casino Manager "fixes" it so that the next 4 spins of Thunderstruck will be zilch, and the 5th is 3 Hammers. Is that random?

Mr. X? sure why not.
Mr. DCM, nope.
 
In the Mr X sample, the people passing by is random, the sequence of the prizes obviously isnt. Now luckily multiplying a random with a non-random gives a random .. so answer . .still random from the people's point of view as long as they are unaware of the rules and cant count the nr of people that went before them (unpredictability).

In the Mr DCM sample, the sequence of the machine would not be random, and if he doesnt know which player is gonna hit it, then it'll still go to a 'random' player. However. Looking at just the machine, its not random, and thus not fair.

Keep in mind that something can be totally random if you miss bits of information, and get to be totally predetermined if you have the information. This is actually the case with a computer based RNG, if you have the algorithm, the seed, the internal state, it's predictable. But since good RNG's use stuff like the nr of interrupts, the number of cache misses, network bytes etc, it gets to be impossible to tell the internal state of the RNG. This is why it is called a pseudo random.

The existance of 'random' in the real physical universe is a big question. (one of the _Big_ ones). There's a general agreement on the fact that most randoms out there are pseudo-randoms (random because of too complex to predict). This actually boils down to a classic sample in filosophy, where in order to 'predict' the next state of everything in the universe, you need a computer that actually stores all the information on all the elementary elements, this computer would be so big however that it requires ALL the elementary elements in the universe to build it. In other words its impossible .. that doesnt mean it is factual random, it may still be that everything happens for a logical cause .. just impossible to predict because of the complexity.

Luckily, for gaming purposes, all you need is unpredictability..
 
In the Mr DCM sample, the sequence of the machine would not be random, and if he doesnt know which player is gonna hit it, then it'll still go to a 'random' player. However. Looking at just the machine, its not random, and thus not fair.

Agreed. However as a punter, you still have the same chance of hitting that win as you would if they were dealt truely randomly. In my eyes both examples produce a random winner. It would be different if Mr X or Mr DCM decided that a certain punter was to receive the main prize.
 
Agreed. However as a punter, you still have the same chance of hitting that win as you would if they were dealt truely randomly. In my eyes both examples produce a random winner. It would be different if Mr X or Mr DCM decided that a certain punter was to receive the main prize.

Each of our 'Misters' has predetermined the winner (by his place in line). Not random enough for me to call truly random.

If I buy an envelope or spin the reels I am doomed or blessed before I lay my money down. I must be able to randomly choose one myself for it to be a fair game (my previous, 'sure why not' notwithstanding) :)

In the envelope analogy earlier I was speaking more to the fairness than the question... Mr. X is giving away $136 on my 5/1 ten dollar gamble = more than a fair bet, but nope, not random.


I would agree that it must be equally distributed and unpredictable to meet the criteria of truly random. But that's just an opinion.
 
i guess one could crunch numbers and debate outcomes but i would have to go by "acutal outcomes". played really heavy for three years. in a truly random environment you would expect losing streaks. that is true. i have had many. however you would also have winning streaks. cant say that i have had any. also should have some big wins on the first few spins sooner or later.
never on mg casinos. have had a couple at intercasino. matter of fact on mg slots it seems one has to go through at least 100 to 200 dollars(2.25 spins) to even get a cough. my conclusion they are not random in the true sense.
 
Guys, imo there's this RNG with some percentage being multiplied with it. Like,
Intercasino's Marvel Slots. The more you bet, more chances of taking jackpot (hero/superhero/marvelhero). It's just simple. Haven't you noticed that you usually get winning combinations when you're close enough to round number (I mean while losing)? RNG is a myth imo, cause we would all play roulette with good old classic systems and be rich.
 
never on mg casinos. have had a couple at intercasino. matter of fact on mg slots it seems one has to go through at least 100 to 200 dollars(2.25 spins) to even get a cough. my conclusion they are not random in the true sense.

I've always had similar problems low-rolling, but I eventually put this down to two things: firstly, I set my cashout targets too high. Getting to double a $200 deposit at, say, $1.35 a spin, is very difficult. The wager size is a trade-off between length of session and hitting your target. I had longer sessions, but rarely made a 100% profit. Secondly, the slot variance played a major role. On low-medium variance slots it was much harder to double up, whereas with higher variance, I'd have plenty of sessions low-rolling where I'd lose quicker, but also more sessions where I'd double up.

These figures aren't accurate, but as a rough guide, if I am betting at $1.80 off a $100 deposit on a low/medium variance slot, I'd aim to cashout at 50% profit. If I was betting at $5 off a $250 deposit on a similar slot, I'd go for a medium variance slot and aim to double up.

Finding a balance between entertainment and profit/loss that suits one's style of play is hard, but essential. And as an aside on topic, if I didn't think the online casino I was playing was "random" (my definition of random being that the RNG didn't treat me individually), I wouldn't be playing - lol.
 
Where did I read this?

I know how to make a small fortune at roulette! I'll just start with a large fortune and when it eventually becomes a small fortune I'll walk away from the table.:D
 

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