what do you guys make of this?

lucky21

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Location
australia
Here is a chat i had its long winded but am i right to be concerned about this issue?

info: Please wait for a site operator to respond.
info: You are now chatting with 'Karolina'
Karolina: Hello, how are you?
phillip: not bad
Karolina: We had some updates in few min ago
Karolina: Now all should be fine
Karolina: We are sorry about any inconvenience, I would advise you to log off and try again
phillip: its very off putting , cant you advise when your going to do that
phillip: have you done that several times in the last few days?
Karolina: The updates were done today only
Karolina: we didn't have them in some time
Karolina: As I said the technicians confirmed that all should be working fine now
phillip: yes seems to be working ok, but you could have saved a bit of a head ache for me if you had advised you where doing it
phillip: i have spent some time checking my computer b4 i asked you
phillip: it also throws the game off so that works in your favour
Karolina: We didn't know about that as there was some problem and they tried to fix that
Karolina: I'm really sorry
Karolina: Hope that won't happen again but from time to time the system need an update
phillip: you could also use it to throw players off tho, to distract them
phillip: you best swing me a bonus
Karolina: We do not do that
Karolina: The technicians trying to do it always on the time where not many players online
phillip: switch to alt server
Karolina: I can issue a bonus but you need to finish the balance first
phillip: how much you give me?
Karolina: Even if we do the switch that will take some time and your session maybe disturbed
Karolina: I can give you $100 but you need to contact us when the balance will be 0
phillip: all you need to do is log me out and explain whats going on, would have saved a head ache for us both
phillip: cause i go looking for probs with my computer b4 i contact you
Karolina: I'm sorry about that
Karolina: We can compensate you the bonus
Karolina: Please contact us when you finish the balance
phillip: whilst i am talking to you can you tell me my maximum withdrawal for the bonus i have at the moment?
Karolina: The max is $750 as the bonus was worth $75
phillip: i had $110 already so does that mean i can withdraw at $860?
Karolina: No, the amount you have now is withdrawable, if you continue to play you can build up the balance and we can pay no more than $750
phillip: yes but i had $110 in my account when i applied the bonus so wouldnt it be $750 plus the $110 i allready had?
Karolina: Ok I can see that
Karolina: You can't mix the real money with the bonus as that will cause problem and the max cash out is anyway $750
Karolina: even if you had $110 before
Karolina: The bonus you used was a free bonus not a deposit bonus
phillip: what if i had $800 in my account then applied the $75 bonus how much could i withdraw?
Karolina: $750
Karolina: There is no point to use bonus when you made deposit
Karolina: That's why we offer deposit bonuses and free bonuses.
phillip: so if i won $750 on top of the $800 i would loose my $800 deposit?
Karolina: The free bonuses should be used always when balance is 0 or if you requested withdrawal (pending) and later you can use the bonus.
Karolina: Basically yes as you mixed that with a bonus
phillip: but your computer lets me put it on top of my deposits
phillip: where is that explained in your T&C
Karolina: That's only the system Phillip
Karolina: Please check what is max cash out on the free bonus and you will see
phillip: yes it says ten times the amount of the bonus
phillip: but it says nothing about lossing any other deposits, thats fundamentally wrong
Karolina: yes and how come we should check which is your bonus money and which is deposit and on which you won
phillip: because your system lets me apply the bonus
phillip: at any time
Karolina: You should not do it as you know there is max cash out
Karolina: You can use it according to terms and conditions
Karolina: 10 x max cash out
phillip: of the bonus
phillip: which is $750
phillip: plus what i allready had there
Karolina: and what will be the rest?
phillip: $110
Karolina: then let say if you will have $1000 in your balance how much we should pay you?
phillip: nothing
Karolina: ?
phillip: well thats over the $750
phillip: plus my original $110
Karolina: Then $860?
phillip: yes
Karolina: minus bonus amount
Karolina: bonuses are not cashable
Karolina: Not sure to be honest, in this situation cashier will review your account
phillip: well if you take the bonus off the $750 its only 9 times the bonus
Karolina: In my knowledge the max cash out apply anyway
Karolina: what is 9 x the bonus?
phillip: well 10 times it max cash out
Karolina: if you using any bonuses always they will be removed from associated cash out
Karolina: yes
Karolina: If you will have over that
phillip: better to sort it now than when i try to withdraw
Karolina: But in my opinion the max csh out will apply
Karolina: cash*
Karolina: don't know what cashier will decide
phillip: what if I had $10,000 in my acount then applied the $75 bonus how would i get my $10,000 out?
Karolina: Maybe cashier will only remove the bonus amount of your cash out
phillip: well this needs to be cleared up could you get the cashier to email me
Karolina: Philip I would advise you to email cashier your concerns as I can't fully give you an answer
phillip: but you need to know the correct things to tell people also, as there are so many bonus related issues from players
Karolina: The correct is that you should not mix the deposit with free bonus
Karolina: In this kind of situation management will make decision if you win more
phillip: if i had A zero balance and applied the $75 bonus then really i can get to $825 then withdraw and you will deduct $75 bonus leaving me to cash out $750 is that how you see it?
phillip: if it was meant to only be applied to zero balance it should be like the bonus you have just offered me and only be able to be applied when your balance is zero, as it is now i can apply the bonus at any time so surley i dont forfiet any of the money i had in my account allready
phillip: that would be so wrong
phillip: can you give me a link to your T&C that talks about that?
Karolina: I just checked with cashier and depend on situation they need to review account
phillip: well you need to tell me what would apply with my situation
Karolina: If that situation happen manager need to review your account I'm afraid then I can't give you a straight answer
phillip: there needs to be a term and condition allready in place for this otherwise your just making it up as you go along
Karolina: Yes but what kind of terms if you know that bonus have max cash out and deposit don't
Karolina: What is the point to use free bonus on top of deposit?
phillip: its called risk of ruin in theory i would be able to play for longer with $110 plus $75 then just $75
phillip: if its not meant to be applied on top of any money allready there then that should be explain in the T&C or your system not let it be applied until I reach zero balance
phillip: otherwise it seems it a trap
Karolina: Yes but why you sued the free bonus instead deposit coupon?
Karolina: You should have both sent to you
phillip: because i can
phillip: your system lets me
Karolina: Yes and there is max cash out as well
phillip: there is less play through on the free bonus
Karolina: is in the T&C of the bonus
Karolina: That's why bonus have max cash out rule as the playthrough is lower
phillip: yes we have established that mas cash out of the bonus is $750 but it says nothing about what you allready have in your account
phillip: so to me its $750 plus what was allready in my account
phillip: in other words i can only win $750 from your bonus
phillip: and if i allready had $1000 in my account then i can withdraw 1000 plus 750
phillip: its cant work any other way
phillip: its not explained any other way
phillip: can you give me a link to your T&C that explaind this?
Karolina: No I can't
Karolina: as there is not such explanation, all you have is the T&C on your email with the free bonus code
phillip: thats the problem, how am i to know that there can be this issue if it is not explained
phillip: previous to me applying the bonus
Karolina: I can add comment in your account in case you win and next time you can't use free bonuses with the deposit
Karolina: Is that ok?
phillip: yes put a comment but the issue needs to be made clear
phillip: can i apply this free bonus to my original deposit and still get my original deposit back plus the $750 i can win from the bonus
phillip: can you ask your manager that last question for me?
Karolina: I can't answer straight on this question I'm afraid
Karolina: Will do it in a sec, please hold on
Karolina: Right manager confirmed that this time we will treat that bonus as depsosit coupon
phillip: meaning?
Karolina: Then if you win there is no max cash out only the bonus will be removed from withdrawal
Karolina: However you need to be careful next time when using the free bonuses.
phillip: that doesnt really answer the question i asked though
phillip: why what could happen
phillip: I still dont have an explainiation of what can happen
Karolina: Then if I can't answer please contact cashier
Karolina: He will explain, seems as I can't do it
phillip: but you need to have T&C on this matter
phillip: otherwise others will get caught out
Karolina: We never had any problem with that you are the 1st person asking this
Karolina: honestly and we are in business over 5 years now
Karolina: All players know that free bonus is a free bonus and deposit coupon is a deposit coupon
phillip: but what was the answer to my question above?
phillip: obviously not
Karolina: The answer was that I asked manager and he said that if you win - you can get all of your winnings minus bonus amount which is $75 as bonuses are not cashable
phillip: in this situation yes
Karolina: Yes
phillip: but what are the normal rules for this
Karolina: And you know now the rules please do not mix the bonuses with cash
Karolina: The normal rule is to not use free bonus on top of deposit in balance
phillip: where does it say that in your T&C?
phillip: or in the email i got with the bonus
Karolina: Please ask promotion department.
Karolina: They sent you email
Karolina: Yes in the email
phillip: ok I will do that
Karolina: I'm sorry Phillip but I'm trying to help you best I can
phillip: bonuses are so messy
Karolina: We are customer support but some queries need to be forwarded to other departments
Karolina: Yes there is so many bonuses that only promo team can help you with that
phillip: ok i will send an email to them
phillip: bye for now
Karolina: Thank you
Karolina: Bye
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
RTG software. The problem all boils down to one thing, having max cashout rules. Casinos that do not use such max cashout rules will NEVER give this kind of problem.

I thought RTG had improved the cashier so that it would NOT permit coupons to be used out of turn, and Club World ARE using this feature to create the "bonus banned" player class, where coupons will not work with specific accounts, even though they are perfectly valid coupons.

RTG perform these updates TOO OFTEN, so players keep on getting booted from the software without knowing why. Often NOTHING seems to have been updated, excelt that the games "play tighter" afterwards. This leads some players to conclude that the updates are to periodically tighten and loosen the games.

Surely the software could be set to block the redemption of ND coupons whilst there is a balance in the account, thus preventing this problem from the outset.

For the player the answer is simple. Withdraw what you have now rather than trying to work it up to the max cashout, and THEN use the next ND coupon.

RTG software does NOT normally allow multiple coupon redemption anyway, but this might be limited to when there is outstanding WR, rather than when WR has already been met, or only "real money" is in the account.
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
When I was first reading the chat, I was figuring that the player was a newbie and might have gotten caught with the ol' max cashout rule....easy for a new player.

However, I now see that the OP has been around over 3 years at CM and has been a player at Club World for over a year, so they would know about the max cashout rule....in addition to that, they would surely know that it is really really silly to claim a ND bonus with a max cashout when they already have a real money balance. I actually think that you created the whole situation yourself, and that it was more than a little unfair to give the CS rep a hard time about how much you are entitled to.....the rep answered your question many times over...obviously they were not authorised to make a decision in this matter as it was very unusual, hence they referred the matter to the manager/cashier to handle it. The whole chat session went on waaaay longer than it should and it was bordering on harassment IMO. No wonder some CS reps are rude.

Karolina: Not sure to be honest, in this situation cashier will review your account

Karolina: don't know what cashier will decide

Maybe cashier will only remove the bonus amount of your cash out

Philip I would advise you to email cashier your concerns as I can't fully give you an answer

Karolina: In this kind of situation management will make decision if you win more

Karolina: I just checked with cashier and depend on situation they need to review account

Karolina:
If that situation happen manager need to review your account I'm afraid then I can't give you a straight answer

Question answered 7 times.....why didnt you do what she suggested instead of trying to get her to answer a question she wasnt authorised to answer?

phillip: but you need to know the correct things to tell people also, as there are so many bonus related issues from players

phillip: well you need to tell me what would apply with my situation

The reason she couldnt answer is:

Karolina: We never had any problem with that you are the 1st person asking this
Karolina: honestly and we are in business over 5 years now
Karolina: All players know that free bonus is a free bonus and deposit coupon is a deposit coupon

Then the management decided (VERY generously IMO) to allow you to cashout anything minus bonus. If I were you I would be very happy with that, as from what you say you would be entitled to $750 + $110 only.

Also, from what you said below as to why you added the ND chip to your current balance:

phillip: because i can
phillip: your system lets me
phillip: there is less play through on the free bonus
phillip: its called risk of ruin in theory i would be able to play for longer with $110 plus $75 then just $75

Its called trying to gain an advantage by having $185 to use to meet the WR of a $75 bonus - you should have been happy just to get the $750 + $110 considering the advantage you had. Everyone else would have to meet the WR starting with $75, so why should you get a head start? Actually, its a way of getting a deposit bonus with reduced WR...as you said yourself, the WR is lower on free chips and your $110 wouldnt be included in the WR calculation. Quite clever actually, but I doubt you will be able to do it again.

IMO this is a case of a player doing something that everyone knows you shouldnt do (and in many cases cant do) and then having their issue resolved favorably (probably based on their past custom), and then posting this chat session to show the casino in a bad light...after they just went the extra mile to lift the restrictions altogether! I just dont understand why you would post that chat session..??

If anything, the OP should have been posting about how CW listen to their players and are prepared to look at each case on its merits. Try pulling a stunt like at other casinos and see how far you get.

Im all for calling out bad treatment of players and rogue behaviour, but lets save it for the ones that have earned it....not the ones who have clearly done right by the player.
 

Wildfire7

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 9, 2006
Location
UK
I agree with Niftys comments regarding the length of this conversation.
Firstly when a player contacts customer support they need to be much clearer in what it is they expect CS to deal with.

From what I can glean of the above conversation is that the OP first contacted support regarding a technical issue which disconnected him from the casino because of an update that had to be made. The OP then asked for a bonus because he felt the need to be compensated because it put him off his gameplay. Then followed random questions to the CS regarding issues that he should have already of known the answers to, had he of read the T&C's.

CS is a valuable resource for players who have genuine problems they need sorting out quickly, on this occassion CS spent a lot of time with the client needlessly, no doubt whilst more needy players were waiting in the queue.

The point I am trying to make is, if players have a concern they need to ask CS then keep it clear and simple. They quite often do not have all the answers at their fingertips. So for multiple or more complex issues it is much better to email support. This gives them an opportunity to construct a meaningful reply, without the player constantly butting in.

Mike
 

lucky21

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Location
australia
What i am trying to get through here is there is no explaination of this in there T&C, there is knowhere in the T&C that says this will create an issue.

Its all well and good for you guys to say we all know not to put free money on top off cash but where does it say this in there T&C thats what i am asking and as stated there is no rule on that in there T&C.

When sent the Email I would understand 10times the bonus amount to be all i can win from that bonus is $750 plus what i allready had in the account.

Of course I would put it on top of the cash i already had there is nothing to say dont and there system allows it.

The simple way to stop this so called "bonus abuse" would be to not let the bonus be applied until my account reaches zero would'nt it?
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
For me it's even called bonus abuse, or am i wrong?

There is actually no advantage, because the $75 is non-cashable anyway, and this player has actually INCREASED his risk by adding in $110 of his own money. This means that he could lose not only the free $75, but his own $110 failing to make WR. If he DOES make WR, the $75 is removed anyway, so he does not stand to win any more.

The BETTER approach would have been to cash out the $110, and THEN play on the free $75. His $110 would be safe whatever happened, and if he failed to make WR, he would have lost none of his own money.

A ND bonus is BETTER than a deposit bonus, since it means no risk to the player, only for the casino, so by converting a ND bonus into a deposit bonus, this player has simply placed his own $110 at risk, whilst the casino is STILL risking only the $110. If he wins big, it would have happened anyway.

The casino's review and subsequent offer did seem to give what the player was asking for. What this HAS done is provide a "bashing" opportunity, so the solution IS to fix the software to block redemption of coupons that are not valid given an account's current circumstances. If this had happened in this case, there would have been no opportunity to make a complaint.

The other matter seems to be the use of a technical error to more or less blackmail support into granting a free chip, this tells the casino the player is too "bonus focussed", and this is NOT the way to CONTINUE to receive bonuses - it's too pushy.
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
phillip: because i can
phillip: your system lets me
phillip: there is less play through on the free bonus
phillip: its called risk of ruin in theory i would be able to play for longer with $110 plus $75 then just $75

And players wonder why casinos have a "bonus abuse" clause in their T&C..
 

lucky21

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Location
australia
But why is it a bonus abuse is my point, where is this explained? its just assumed by some to be bonus abuse, but why?

the clause is there that says a player may loose winnings from "bonus abuse"
but does not explain what is deemed to be abuse, it seems its up to the casino to decide, but there arent any ground rules in the first place, in this case it seems to be make it up as we go along.

And its so easy to avoid this and many other arguments that come up with bonuses, the software can be set to not let this happen.

Like another issue with bonuses in this section where a player played blackjack on a slots bonus , would'nt it make sense that the software only allowed the player to play slots while he is on that bonus.

would save a few arguements, the casino's obviously benefit more from the way it is otherwise the software would automatically prevent this abuse.

Club world Did handle my situation very well and the CS helped to the best of her ability, but the casino management and software providers can obviously to more to avoid any of these issues in the first place.

I rarely use bonuses because of the mess they can be, but i also believe that if their software stuffed up then yes i deserve some sort of compensation, to pushy? these guys get enough money when the software is working right let alone when its not performing right and they acknowledge that.
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
We sometimes give suggestions on how customer service or the software can be improved but unless it really did affect you too much materially should we ask for compensation so freely?

I have an issue with Aladdinsgold right now and it does seem that the software somehow messed it up and I was underpaid by $2.4. Should I now ask for compensation to the tune of say $50 in free chips because there was a glitch. I actually told them that I dont mind if I am not recompensed the $2.4 but told them that they should look into the software faults to ensure nothing similar happens again. For those who may like to know the slot was Diamond Dozen which should pay 2x during free spins. However, I was paid only 1x on the3 white diamonds I got during my last free spin. It had always paid correctly so there could be a minor glitch somewhere.
 

Kenny Lingus

Tard Counter
Joined
Dec 24, 2006
Location
Near Chicago, Illinois
I think both parties involved were responsible for the ugliness of this incident.

First of all, why didn't the casino inform those playing that an update was imminent and that gameplay would be affected?

And is it just me, or was the OP bullheaded and/or dimwitted whilst talking with the casino rep? Geez, I just wanted to find him and slap him silly after reading that transcript. :D

The original problem was caused by a lack of respect by the casino for their players; and then, the OP (IMO) was way too greedy in his expectations for how the casino was to compensate him for the incident.
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
Club world Did handle my situation very well and the CS helped to the best of her ability

Well why on Earth did you make a new thread saying 'What do you guys think of this' and just post the chat implying that Club World somehow did the wrong thing i.e. showing them in a bad light? Doesnt make sense, unless you were trying to get some more comps or something.

And its so easy to avoid this and many other arguments that come up with bonuses, the software can be set to not let this happen.

Why would they update the software for a problem that hasn't ever happened before?? You were the first one they had who did this. You may find they add another term in the near future as a result. I guess they thought that nobody in their right mind would claim a max cashout ND coupon on top of their own funds.

Like another issue with bonuses in this section where a player played blackjack on a slots bonus , would'nt it make sense that the software only allowed the player to play slots while he is on that bonus
.

Dont see how this issue is related to this...your issue is about ND coupons not deliberately playing excluded games to build a bankroll.

I rarely use bonuses because of the mess they can be, but i also believe that if their software stuffed up then yes i deserve some sort of compensation, to pushy?

Yes IMO, but to each their own.

But why is it a bonus abuse is my point, where is this explained? its just assumed by some to be bonus abuse, but why?

Bonus abuse IMO means not playing within the rules set by the casino. e.g. playing bj or roulette on a slots only bonus. Im not sure your case qualifies as bonus abuse, but its certainly within the realms of trying to gain an advantage by doing something very unusual.
 
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