Watch those fake IDs

[The Dude]

Perhaps I should have a "Pitch a Bitch" of the week. Here's this week's highlight:

Firstly, I'm well aware that this is more likely to end me up in the evil players section or at least the stupid players one. It is a problem of my own making but I feel that it would be reasonable for them to pay out my winnings. Below is the most recent email I sent them after being informed of the reason for my cash in being rejected. The details of the problem are in it.

Hi,

Im writing with regard to a withdrawal I made which has just been refused for reasons of fraud by your payment processors. I am aware of the reason for this and it is my own fault. I sent you two copies of my drivers liscense, one had a birthday of 1982, the other said 1986. Obviously the 1982 birthdate did not match the one listed on my account as it had been doctored by me previously. The reason it was doctored had nothing to do with this withdrawal or with your casino. The doctored copy was stored on my computer under a very similar filename to the genuine one and it was accidentally sent to you. I had doctored the copy a few months previously when dealing with a different casino who for some reason had imposed a minimum age of 21. I wanted to sign up to their casino and didn't think it would do any harm if I changed my birthdate when registering. Being unfamiliar with internet casinos, I wasnt aware that they would likely ask for ID to verify it. I played at their casino and enjoyed it, making a considerable profit. However when asked for ID I panicked thinking they would refuse me my winnings. By playing on photoshop I was able to change the 86 for a 82.

This was obviously a wrong thing to do but I'm sure you can appreciate my worry at being refused my winnings. Unfortunately, this copy was stored on my computer and when I played at your casino I accidentally sent the faked version instead. There was obviouisly no reason to do this as I am both legal age and above the minimum age for your casino. It was careless and when you requested a copy again I was still unaware that I had sent the fake one originally and so this time sent the genuine one. The irregularities were spotted and you requested that in addition I send a copy of my passport. This was 100% genuine and matched the 1986 birthdate on my genuine drivers lisence. I understand that this problem is entirely of my own making but at no point have I tried to defraud your casino. In the case of the original casino also I was not stealing money from the casino, merely trying to protect my winnings, stupidly of course. I would be very happy to comply with any additional security checks you would like to do and can send my physical driving liscense if neccessary.
+++++++++++++++++++++

Well guess what the casino said when I forwarded this to them

At least I tried!

 

[Petunia]

** OH goodness!! what the heck was it thinking?! Well, it takes all sorts to make up an industry riiiight? **

 

[Vesuvio]

Amusing, I agree, but surely the casino should pay out in this case? The drivers licence (with 1986!) appears genuine and can be backed up by other evidence. So there's no question of the player's identity (previous bad character, perhaps ). I'm guessing this is probably one of the more questionable casinos that will seize any opportunity available to refuse a withdrawal?

 

[Petunia]

**Vesuvio, i do hope you meant that in jest! **

 

[Vesuvio]

**Vesuvio, i do hope you meant that in jest! **

No, I'm completely serious (well, 80% at least )! I see where you're coming from, but it's pretty clear he wasn't out to defraud the casino and it's just an unfortunate and rather comical error.

I'm sure he's unnecesarily broken terms and conditions so the casino can justify not paying him, but morally if they don't I think that's on the same level as his creative photoshopping!

 

[sripal32]

hmmmmmmm

May be (s)he is faking all the other documents too ?

 

[caruso]

He sent FAKED ID, is clearly a cheat, and you reckon should be paid??

The casino is entirely in the right, and the player is a cheat and an idiot to boot. The fact that his cheating was only revealed by his own incompetence is nothing to do with anything. "Oops, sorry Mr. Policeman - if I'd known you were there I'd never have done the robbery." LOL.

I'm surprised Bryan even gave this one the time of day, other than blacklisting the player.

 

[Petunia]

** I'd have to say, on this ocasion I have to disagree! EDIT: With Vesuvio : END EDIT From the casino's point of view this would be how i'd think:

1) What are you doing with a fake ID in the first place, in MOST countries it is illegal!
2) Are you sorry you got caught, or are you sorry for sending in a fake ID, or all of the above?
3) Why do we have to now spend recourses to try and find out if ALL your other documents are not false AS WELL?
4) WHY did you panic? What made you think that you could be refused your winnings in the first place that forced you to MISTAKENLY send a false id? Your story does not wash - you state clearly that the fake one is kept seperately, so you CHOSE to use it!
5) Have you used the other ID to sign up with another account with the casino (or any other casino) and how do we know that you did not just get mixed up with which fake doc goes with wich account?
6) Rather go, we'll refund your money.

AND if the casinos had any sense, they'd alert the cops too. There are too much of this going on with ID fraud and ID Theft... sorry, I have NO sympathy. YOu lie, you cheat and you defraud... and say "Sorry" and expect to get away with it? Nuh-uh... but that is just me I guess!! **

 

[jetset]

He sent FAKED ID, is clearly a cheat, and you reckon should be paid??

The casino is entirely in the right, and the player is a cheat and an idiot to boot. The fact that his cheating was only revealed by his own incompetence is nothing to do with anything. "Oops, sorry Mr. Policeman - if I'd known you were there I'd never have done the robbery." LOL.

I'm surprised Bryan even gave this one the time of day, other than blacklisting the player.

This is something of a red letter week for me - I find myself agreeing with Caruso for the second time!

 

[The Dude]

...I'm surprised Bryan even gave this one the time of day, other than blacklisting the player.

Sometimes I'm just a big teddy bear

 

[Vesuvio]

Ok, this is clearly a losing battle, but for what it's worth!

1) What are you doing with a fake ID in the first place, in MOST countries it is illegal!

The ID seems to be genuine... except for the date of birth! How can it be illegal to have an altered scan on your computer - yep, sending it is another matter!

2) Are you sorry you got caught, or are you sorry for sending in a fake ID, or all of the above?

Well, all of the above presumably! There doesn't appear to have been a reason to send the altered scan.

3) Why do we have to now spend recourses to try and find out if ALL your other documents are not false AS WELL?

Hmmm, it's not a huge amount of resources is it? If this reasoning was allowed to wash casinos could get away with anything! Ooops, I forgot they already do...

4) WHY did you panic? What made you think that you could be refused your winnings in the first place that forced you to MISTAKENLY send a false id? Your story does not wash - you state clearly that the fake one is kept seperately, so you CHOSE to use it!

He was asked to send ID and sent the wrong scan. That seems like a simple mistake to make (I've sent the wrong scan before, though not a falsified one, I hasten to add!). Of course he might always send the wrong scan and not check the age requirements of the particular casino in question - now that would be truly stupid... but it's not clear if it's the case.

5) Have you used the other ID to sign up with another account with the casino (or any other casino) and how do we know that you did not just get mixed up with which fake doc goes with wich account?

The only difference is the date of birth, though, so it'd hardly be suitable for opening another account unless the casino didn't mind having someone with the same name & other details.

Admittedly I can see a case for saying 'once a cheat always a cheat', or something similar, but it's not an entirely convincing reason not to pay someone who played at your casino & who you can't show is someone other than they say they are (the point of these checks - not to assess general character).

 

[Vesuvio]

Once more into the breach...

He sent FAKED ID, is clearly a cheat, and you reckon should be paid??

Yes, he sent faked ID and clearly has cheated at another casino before. I can't see any intent to defraud at the casino in question, though. I do think he should be paid, though I doubt he's got a cat in hell's chance of it and he's only got himself to blame!

The casino is entirely in the right, and the player is a cheat and an idiot to boot. The fact that his cheating was only revealed by his own incompetence is nothing to do with anything.

Hard to judge if he's an idiot on the basis of what he sent to Bryan. His incompetence was that he wasn't cheating the casino but cheated himself out of money due to him in this case.

Ok, I'll stop trying to defend what's probably the indefensible now!

 

[KasinoKing]

Assuming the facts as reported by the player are true, I think 100% the casino should pay up.
He is of legal age, and has not deliberately tried to defraud this particular casino - just made a silly error.
Who here has never done something stupid in their lives?

Once again, the casino has taken the money, allowed him to play, and only caused a fuss when it's time to pay up.
This is totally out of order (but just what we've come to expect these days).

 

[Dirk Diggler]

I've also got to agree that the casino should pay if the facts stated are true.

The player hasn't tried to cheat or defraud that casino, they just sent them fake ID as well as real ID. Their admittance for cheating other casinos in the past should not effect this issue.

Still got to be one of the funniest and stupidest things to possibly do though :notworthy

 

[meh]

I think the casino is completely in the wrong in this situation. The IDs he sent (apart from the fake one!) are obviously genuine and he's offered to send his physical driving license as well. They can't refuse him a payout based on what he's done at other casinos.
I certainly won't be playing here in future.

 

[Petunia]

**we would have to agree to disagree. I am not changing my mind. This person committed a CRIME. Accident or no. There is NO EXCUSE for having a FAKE ID in the FIRST place as far as I'm concerned. I have done many stupid things in my life, but NONE of them could end me up in JAIL. At most, i'd expect the casino to give back the deposit and close the account.

Vevusio - you pulled my whole mail apart, and I enjoyed your presentation very much ! :notworthy

I guess its just me then... lol **

 

[thelawnet]

Perhaps I should have a "Pitch a Bitch" of the week. Here's this week's highlight:

Firstly, I'm well aware that this is more likely to end me up in the evil players section or at least the stupid players one. It is a problem of my own making but I feel that it would be reasonable for them to pay out my winnings. Below is the most recent email I sent them after being informed of the reason for my cash in being rejected. The details of the problem are in it.

Hi,

Im writing with regard to a withdrawal I made which has just been refused for reasons of fraud by your payment processors. I am aware of the reason for this and it is my own fault. I sent you two copies of my drivers liscense, one had a birthday of 1982, the other said 1986. Obviously the 1982 birthdate did not match the one listed on my account as it had been doctored by me previously. The reason it was doctored had nothing to do with this withdrawal or with your casino. The doctored copy was stored on my computer under a very similar filename to the genuine one and it was accidentally sent to you. I had doctored the copy a few months previously when dealing with a different casino who for some reason had imposed a minimum age of 21. I wanted to sign up to their casino and didn't think it would do any harm if I changed my birthdate when registering. Being unfamiliar with internet casinos, I wasnt aware that they would likely ask for ID to verify it. I played at their casino and enjoyed it, making a considerable profit. However when asked for ID I panicked thinking they would refuse me my winnings. By playing on photoshop I was able to change the 86 for a 82.

This was obviously a wrong thing to do but I'm sure you can appreciate my worry at being refused my winnings. Unfortunately, this copy was stored on my computer and when I played at your casino I accidentally sent the faked version instead. There was obviouisly no reason to do this as I am both legal age and above the minimum age for your casino. It was careless and when you requested a copy again I was still unaware that I had sent the fake one originally and so this time sent the genuine one. The irregularities were spotted and you requested that in addition I send a copy of my passport. This was 100% genuine and matched the 1986 birthdate on my genuine drivers lisence. I understand that this problem is entirely of my own making but at no point have I tried to defraud your casino. In the case of the original casino also I was not stealing money from the casino, merely trying to protect my winnings, stupidly of course. I would be very happy to comply with any additional security checks you would like to do and can send my physical driving liscense if neccessary.
+++++++++++++++++++++

Well guess what the casino said when I forwarded this to them

At least I tried!

I have to agree that he does not seem to have broken any rules at this casino and should be paid. He is however an idiot and perhaps deserves it.

He didn't do a very good job of explaining himself, but if he had come up with a better explanation for the forged ID; e.g., he was trying to order liquor online, I don't see why this should affect things.

I don't see that he has broken any terms and conditions so they should pay him.

If they don't want to pay him they should refund his deposit (minus perhaps any processing costs), as it does not seem reasonable that they keep his money. If he was not legal to play, his money should be refunded, as age limits are for the protection of the vulnerable, not for the enrichment of the casino.

 

[Macgyver]

Look at it from this point of view:

In the U.S., a cop stops someone under the age of 21 for speeding. The officer asks for ID and the driver accidentally gives the cop their fake ID, which is a legitimate I.D. with the birthdate altered so the person is over 21.

When the person opens his wallet and gives the fake ID, the officer sees another ID and asks for it. This ID, in fact, is the driver's legitimate ID showing he's under 21.

What does the cop do?

He seizes BOTH IDs (maybe just the fake one, depends on the state) and charges the driver with possessing a fraudulent ID. Heck, even if the driver gave the cop the legitimate ID and the cop merely saw the fake (it wasn't being passed off as legit), in most states, the driver would still be charged.

Forget it, I wholeheartedly agree with Petunia. If you don't have enough common sense about IDs, you shouldn't be playing in online casinos anyway.

 

[arbster]

**we would have to agree to disagree. I am not changing my mind. This person committed a CRIME. Accident or no. There is NO EXCUSE for having a FAKE ID in the FIRST place as far as I'm concerned. I have done many stupid things in my life, but NONE of them could end me up in JAIL. At most, i'd expect the casino to give back the deposit and close the account. **

I'm not sure if you're missing the point here, Petunia. He didn't have a fake ID, he had an image of one - is that actually a crime, and in what jurisdiction? Secondly, the casino in question does not have a minimum age of 21, therefore by playing there he broke no rules. They're getting het up about something which is essentially not their problem. He is of legal age for gambling, has abided by their T&Cs and volunteered all the ID they have requested (plus a spurious bit they could have done without). They should definitely pay out - if they choose not to I hope that their name will make it into the public domain, as they are clearly one of those unpleasant casinos/groups that will seize on anything to avoid paying winning players - I wonder if they would have returned his deposit intact had he lost it before this issue came to light? I very much doubt it.

In summary, unless this casino wants to appoint itself as the ID police, they should pay up and shut up.

 

[KasinoKing]

I certainly won't be playing here in future.

Playing where? I didn't see the casino name posted anywhere.

I would bet it's a Rip-off The Gamblers one though! :machinegu

 

[Dirk Diggler]

Look at it from this point of view:

In the U.S., a cop stops someone under the age of 21 for speeding. The officer asks for ID and the driver accidentally gives the cop their fake ID, which is a legitimate I.D. with the birthdate altered so the person is over 21.

When the person opens his wallet and gives the fake ID, the officer sees another ID and asks for it. This ID, in fact, is the driver's legitimate ID showing he's under 21.

What does the cop do?

He seizes BOTH IDs (maybe just the fake one, depends on the state) and charges the driver with possessing a fraudulent ID. Heck, even if the driver gave the cop the legitimate ID and the cop merely saw the fake (it wasn't being passed off as legit), in most states, the driver would still be charged.

Forget it, I wholeheartedly agree with Petunia. If you don't have enough common sense about IDs, you shouldn't be playing in online casinos anyway.

This is totally different situation to the one you compared it to. The player was not 'speeding' at the casino in hand. They did nothing wrong there.

A better situation to compare this to is someone going in to a shop to buy some cigarettes, when asked their age they say they are 18. When asked for ID to prove this they accidenlty give them their fake ID fof getting beers in the US that showed they were 21.

They apologised, explained the situation and pulled out their real ID. Although as dodgy as the situation is they should be given the cigarettes because they've provided genuine ID for the product they wanted.

The bottom line is has the player broken any of the casino's rules? I'd be surprised if by doing this they had.

 

[caruso]

Some of you need to take a reality check. The document was faked. There is nothing more needed to establish the rights of the case. I'll take a stab in the dark that the casino in question has a condition stating that supplying fake ID documents will result in forfeiture of funds. This has nothing to do with the fact that of the twenty fake IDs available there happens to be ONE genuine one - the document was faked and the cashin is forfeited.

The fact that some posters can see RIGHT for the player and WRONG for the casino is quite flabbergasting. The casino has correctly disallowed a fraudulent cashin. The casino has acted correctly.

In addition to the reality check some of you need, you need to ALSO learn to see the wider picture and the implications for the rest of us here: casinos must be allowed the right to act correctly, be it pro-player or "anti"-player in terms of receipt or forfeiture of funds. If the casino is only allowed to act "correctly" when "correctly" is in the player's favour, and however right their "anti"-player stance may be they STILL find themselves up against it, then there is absolutely NO reason for the casino to cooperate at any time.

In order for casinos to be expected to pay honest players, they must also be expected to deny winnings to fraudulent players. You cannot have it both ways. If you expect to have fraudulent winnings paid, you must also accept that they may deny your legitimate winnings.

It works absolutely both ways.

Do you understand the damage caused by fraud, the damage DIRECTLY to players' own interests? We have to jump through ever more self-perpetuating hoops to verify down to the last detail we are who we claim to be, and bonuses have got tightened up to the extent that even the most experienced player can come unstuck by failing to read the last line of the fine print on page twenty seven of the terms and conditions and many, many have simply gone for good - casinos have been led to the inescapeable conclusion that they're more trouble than they're worth. A large part of that is down to PLAYER FRAUD.

Fraud - casino AND PLAYER - needs to be swiftly and cleanly dealt with if you want an industry you can function safely within.

 

[bpb]

Some of you need to take a reality check.

OK, I just did a reality check. I still think the casino should pay him.

This guy defrauded casino 1. He then sent the wrong image to casino 2. Casino 2 is keeping his money.

What in god's name did they do to deserve keeping that money? I could buy it if they were going to disburse his winnings to the defrauded casino #1. But they aren't going to. He gambled there, he won, he abided by their terms and conditions. He just sent the wrong .jpg from his computer.

What he "deserves" is to not get paid. What is "right" is that he be paid.

 

[Macgyver]

This is totally different situation to the one you compared it to. The player was not 'speeding' at the casino in hand. They did nothing wrong there.

Now you're holding up the wrong aspect of my example to further prove your own.

It's not the reason why the person was stopped ... it's the simple fact that he possessed the fraudulent ID. Like I said, just the simple possession of a fake ID can get someone charged criminally in some states.

And I'll lastly disagree and say that the player DID do something wrong "at the casino in hand" ... namely he passed a fake ID as real. Never mind that he tried to correct the situation, he screwed up in that first sending.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

I agree 99.99% with what you say - however the player has not commited fraud at THIS casino (i.e. never purposefully provided them with incorrect information in order to gain).

If you had accidently sent fake ID to a casino that you had for whatever reason that shouldn't automatically forfeit your winnings. For example I personally had fake ID for a few years when I was younger for the use of getting into clubs and bars. If I'd accidently faxed this to a casino instead of my real ID would this mean I should have my winnings forfeited?

In my opinion no it shouldn't - just becasue you've commited fraud at some point in your life doesn't mean you should be punished for it here.