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Virtual/Ace Withdrawal Times Explained

Discussion in 'America the Beautiful' started by TawniVirtualAce, Dec 30, 2013.

    Dec 30, 2013
  1. TawniVirtualAce

    TawniVirtualAce I-Gaming Industry Representative

    Occupation:
    Casino Rep
    Location:
    Worldwide
    It’s time to address the concerns surrounding the lengthy withdrawal times at Ace and Virtual. It’s being discussed here, in the America the Beautiful section because much of this has to do with US processing.

    This is not an easy issue to discuss without laying down a little groundwork, so please bear with me.

    The Virtual Group uses a very different business model than other casino groups. Virtual offers bonus far exceeding those of other groups and although we have more than our fair share of critics, we do enjoy thousands of loyal players who look forward to these large bonus offers, each and every week. Regardless what our critics may say, the fact is that we cater to these players who continue to play with us BECAUSE of value, higher chances of winning and in general, longer entertainment time. These players are willing to do so, understanding the longer withdrawal/processing processes.

    With these large bonuses comes some hurdles, particularly given the fact that 95% of our players hail from the U.S., where payment processing is such a difficult task. We have limited processors to use to disperse payments and we have had to endure MANY seizures over the past few years (like most other US-facing brands). I’m sure processing has been discussed here, ad nauseum, however, it’s still important to stress how we have to deal with this.

    With only a few processors at hand and the ability for these processors to accept only a limited amount of cash at any given time, this creates a backlog of player payments for the company of our size. This has become a slow and arduous course for us. When you add in funds seizures, here and there, the backlog gets deeper. Don’t forget, when a seizure occurs, we not only get the cash confiscated, we also lose another processing venue, which leaves us short and scrambling for another processor. Another pain point is most times we don’t even know a seizure has occurred until the customer complains that either a check was returned or a wire was not received. In the ‘old days’ processors were plentiful and in current times, we find ourselves sitting on our hands to a point, waiting on another processor to open its doors.

    Without getting too deep, Virtual has a much narrower profit margin (per player) than most, due to our larger bonuses. Because of this, we are reliant on volume. With volume means greater numbers of withdrawals, which in turn means a larger backlog waiting to be processed. This is essentially the reason behind the long wait-times on our withdrawals.

    FWIW, it should be pointed out that our processors handle Virtual and Ace as one client, so this is why Ace ends up on the slow end of things, as well. We do give priorities to Ace withdrawals and that is the reason behind Ace getting paid faster than Virtual casinos. Obviously, it would be ideal if our processors could separate the two companies and process for each, individually. Unfortunately, because of the limitations on the amount of cash each processor can handle at a given time, this is just not possible.

    In situations when players have exceeded the 30-day total withdrawal time, this mostly occurs as a result of seizures or players having multiple/larger withdrawal amounts within our own group. I’m not going to say that a ball doesn’t get dropped here or there, but in truth, it IS because of a seizure or a snafu with the actual processor, which we have no control over.

    No doubt, many of you will be wondering why we continue down this path of larger bonuses if processing is so difficult. It’s quite simple, really. It’s been successful for us and there is a clear demand for it. Because we have made the commitment to improve, we are making an attempt at shortening things up, but we need to do this with a cautious approach. The last thing we want to do is to push things to a point where we are unable to fulfill our promises.

    I hope this helps all of you to understand our circumstances. For our side, we would love nothing more than to be able to facilitate these withdrawals in a quicker way, as we know this will mean a better player experience and certainly greater profits.
     
    2 people like this.
  2. Dec 30, 2013
  3. Bower50

    Bower50 Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Canada
    I,for one, will not return until withdrawals are done in less than a week.I don't care about anything you said.I,like most players just want their money in a timely fashion.My first withdrawal was done in about an hour.It gradually got longer and longer until I got fed up with them.
     
  4. Dec 30, 2013
  5. rockycatt

    rockycatt meistercatt CAG MM

    Occupation:
    carpenter
    Location:
    Boston
    what im saying here is Subjective theory of value


    i play at highly approved sites that pay by cash via Currier truck signature requested insured by sender , in today's world bonds, jewelery ' stocks, gold coins ,rare stamps worth lot'$$, collector grade coins worth thousands $$, gift credit cards , why cant you guy's
    stream line a similar process it's not like your not breaking the law as it is

    hoping you guys can find a solution R C
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. Dec 31, 2013
  7. bigjohn

    bigjohn Meister Member MM PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Swimming Pool Serviceman
    Location:
    Northeast Coastal USA
    As players it is our lot to deposit our money with your establishment using an approved method to be sure you can redeem it. The casinos job is, if we win, to get the funds back to the player in a timely fashion.

    I thank you for the explanation but don't you guys see that it is clearly not working well?

    Other casinos have found unique, creative ways to get our funds back to us and your casinos must do the same in order to be more acceptable. Gift cards, cash, and money orders are all great options.

    I don't want to sound cold-hearted but the majority of players are not going to be concerned about your operational problems when there is a plethora of choices available with much quicker response times. If you are unwilling to alter your business model you risk being cast by the wayside as you have been by so many players already. Perhaps breaking up, on paper, into smaller entities. Each casino able to seek out and retain their own processors.
     
    2 people like this.
  8. Dec 31, 2013
  9. Cleveland

    Cleveland Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Professional problem solver
    Location:
    Texas
    I haven't finished reading, but this post needs to be moved to the main Virtual thread or at least this needs to be copy pasted into that thread as well. Many players will miss this post. Just because the larger player base are US players or the payment issue is a US problem, that doesn't change the probation process. The discussions needs to be open and viewed by all players. Especially when other players will be playing or not playing based on some information given here. They are looking to see if Virtual has changed, they are looking to get a glimpse at the modus operandi, in order to decide if they should start playing there again. How payments are being handled for their friends in the US is a big part of it. It doesn't make much sense to put this information in an area that a large amount of players don't visit, and won't see.
     
    3 people like this.
  10. Dec 31, 2013
  11. SlotsLover

    SlotsLover Senior Member PABnorogue PABnononaccred3 MM PABinit PABaccred

    Occupation:
    teacher
    Location:
    California
    thank you

    Thank you for this explanation. I think it's great that you are now being more up front with the payout times and if you can stick to your stated time frames, then players have the choice. I am also well aware of the issues with US players, although some casinos (accredited especially) seem to be able to do significantly better than others, so virtual needs to find the better processors.

    Happy New Year
     
  12. Dec 31, 2013
  13. BMWSTACK

    BMWSTACK Ueber Meister

    Occupation:
    Work
    Location:
    US
    I take the explanation as really an excuse as to why it is never going to change. We see plenty of casinos that can process payments quick regardless of bonuses. I don't see Lucky Red saying "if you take the 400% welcome bonus it will take longer to get paid."

    Lets face reality, a big part of the lengthy approval process is to allow enough of an opportunity to play it back. This is what helps offset those large bonuses.
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Dec 31, 2013
  15. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA

    These long withdrawal times will provide seizures for the most patient USA customers. I suggest you buy health insurance for them lol.

    Frankly I believe 'large bonuses' is only an excuse. I, for one, would rather prefer smaller bonuses eg 50 -75% and get my dough within a week. While you may have your share of processor problems I can see no reason why the rest of the world should be lumped with USA players. With e-wallets like Neteller and Skrill, you should be able to pay players within 2 days and certainly within 96 hours. The 30-day period is absurd.

    Why not have one of your range of casinos experiment this. Smaller bonuses but with improved processing times for non-USA players especially those sing e-wallets to withdraw. You should realize that you are unable to attract many non-USA players because of your slow withdrawals. Anywhere else, people are paid within 3-4 days at the most.
     
    8 people like this.
  16. Dec 31, 2013
  17. randomiam

    randomiam Meister Member

    Occupation:
    n/a
    Location:
    australia
    visa prepaid cards can be used worldwide

    just send pre paid visa cards with the amount owing to the player on them via registered post it would take very little time and cost you less than a few dollars to set up the cards and they can be used worldwide it would be the simplest and quickest way only do amounts 0ver 100 or so you got to keep you players happy and paid quick here is your solution...
     
    3 people like this.
  18. Dec 31, 2013
  19. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    The problem is that they charge exorbitant exchange rates, cash withdrawal fees and reload fees. In most cases, they also have a very low maximum balance limit. Plus, the casino would have to manually reload cards, or manually send out new cards etc. It's time consuming, labour intensive and also means the operator might have to have large amounts of cash and cards around the place, which isn't a great idea in many areas of the world.

    I think if this was a less expensive and viable option, it would be far more common, and as a result, probably sussed out by Visa and MC and nipped in the bud somehow.
     
  20. Dec 31, 2013
  21. rockycatt

    rockycatt meistercatt CAG MM

    Occupation:
    carpenter
    Location:
    Boston
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  22. Dec 31, 2013
  23. mrmark21

    mrmark21 Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Telecommunications Consultant
    Location:
    australia
    You can get pre-paid Visa cards as well. I've used them in the past for stuff not related to gambling and it's really easy to use.
     
  24. Dec 31, 2013
  25. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    What's your point rocky?

    What are the fees? How much for an ATM withdrawal?

    Remember, we're talking tens of thousands of players here. Do you not think questions might be asked if an operator suddenly purchased 50,000 prepaid visa cards?

    For an individual...yeah great...but on a large scale it's a different proposition.
     
    2 people like this.
  26. Dec 31, 2013
  27. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    A very good explanation of the US issues, but given the burden, why make it worse by funnelling the 5% of non US withdrawals through the same system, thus "stealing" precious volume that could slightly speed things up for non US players.

    What they could try is Euro denominated versions of a few of their casinos, and use these for non-US players, making it clear in the terms that the non US Dollar denominated accounts can have withdrawals processed separately and much faster.

    The US are getting better at tracing and seizing funds, so having 95% of business there is very dangerous for the company. The lack of non US interest is probably largely down to the historical reputation of the group, along with the very long withdrawal times.

    US players may well like the large bonus and longer time to make WR because they accept that getting their winnings is a chore even at accredited casinos.

    Other casinos can pay US players faster because they are not as large a group, and thus whatever processing volume they have is shared among fewer players. Splitting the group may well be a measure worth looking into. The split would probably only have to be at the licensing level, each fragment running under it's own license. The group could remain whole above this level as a holding company. Other casino groups have tried this, but on a smaller scale.

    What this does NOT explain are the numerous tales of winnings being confiscated for vague, silly, or completely BS reasons. The worst I saw was a player who deposited without a bonus and won being told that depositing WITHOUT a bonus was "bonus abuse", as with so many on offer they should never need to play without one. It was accompanied by the BS explanation that if players lost with a bonus, and then played without one, the games "remembered" the lower RTP from their bad earlier session and paid well above RTP with the non bonused deposit to compensate so that TRTP was maintained, thus this was considered "bonus abuse" by the casino.

    This BS reasoning was also used to explain having a max cashout on a deposit without a bonus if in the recent past a player had been playing offers that did have a max cashout; the most recent max cashout being carried over and imposed on any next deposit made without claiming a bonus.

    This is the kind of rogue BS that has to be shown to have stopped LONG TERM for the group to have any chance of redemption.
     
    6 people like this.
  28. Dec 31, 2013
  29. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    This goes to show how ignorant some operators are regarding their very own product. Unbelievable. Not only should be in the pit, but buried there too.
     
    5 people like this.
  30. Dec 31, 2013
  31. rockycatt

    rockycatt meistercatt CAG MM

    Occupation:
    carpenter
    Location:
    Boston
    Nifty: were trying to help them [as they put this thread up as OP] they are the the ones trying to climb out of rogue's galley
    there's way more solutions then are mentioned in that one click post , they need to up there game and either drop out of the USA all together or do what there piers do and work at there business

    its that simple :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2013
    1 person likes this.
  32. Dec 31, 2013
  33. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    I agree with Nifty, the task would be immeasurable and could go colossally wrong for the operator/processor. Plus the hassle of allocating uneven amounts to pre-loaded cards that couldn't be withdrawn from ATMs but only spent instead. Then also big wins would exceed the limit of loading on many cards, plus the card provider would have money laundering regulations to consider.

    That aside, it would be a bloody good way of getting US players paid if it was practical. You withdraw $2500? No problem, we post you 5 x one-usage ATM cards with $500+fee on each, and you withdraw at an ATM and chuck 'em away.

    If only it were possible!
     
  34. Dec 31, 2013
  35. Googobucs

    Googobucs Meister Member

    Occupation:
    IT Manager
    Location:
    Florida, USA
    FYI - I don't know that pre-paid cards are the answer. I just received one as a rebate from Verizon and was able to turn it into cash and deposit it only because the card had my name on it. The bank teller said she would not have been able to do the transaction if it did not have my name.

    I have no other experience with these cards, so if they can be used at an ATM, I don't know. Maybe they issue you a card with your name the first time, and then re-load to the same card for future withdraws. that would be fast I think and drive repeat business.

    I don't want a card that I cant get the cash off of.
     
    3 people like this.
  36. Dec 31, 2013
  37. bigjohn

    bigjohn Meister Member MM PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Swimming Pool Serviceman
    Location:
    Northeast Coastal USA
    The card solution doesn't have to be all or none.

    I bet quite a few people have smaller withdrawals because of the restrictions on their bonuses, you know, deposit $50 get $50, max cashout 4X or the like. Give players an option, do you want 2 cards for $100 each in 3 days or the check for $200 in 30 days?

    Not saying it's practical or even doable but merely a suggestion. If we are to believe Virtual/Ace are sincere suggestions certainly can't hurt.

    A question to Tawny; After initiating a withdrawal how long would the funds be reversible? For Virual and Ace?
     
    3 people like this.
  38. Dec 31, 2013
  39. rockycatt

    rockycatt meistercatt CAG MM

    Occupation:
    carpenter
    Location:
    Boston
    1 person likes this.

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