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Discussion in 'Online Casino and Poker Complaints - old section' started by rudycali, Dec 9, 2005.

    Dec 9, 2005
  1. rudycali

    rudycali Dormant account

    Occupation:
    student
    Location:
    redding
    I deposited at vip casino and was forced to play in their new dowload casino. The bonus was $100 $100 $3000 wagered. I put all $200 on one game of war. I was dealt a 6 as well as the dealer. I surrendered and the dealer took all $200. At the time the rules for war were not posted but apparently if you surrender the dealer takes the whole bet. I guess the house advantage on this is almost 5%.

    I was lucky enough to get $100 back because support didn't even know the rules either. I am grateful for that although all I wanted was my $100 deposit returned to me as any game with that high a HA is not worth it to me.

    I had to still wager $3000. There were a lot of banned games roulette, craps, baracart and even all forms of blackjack. They off pontoon so I figured I would learn how to play that as people at the wiz say its a decent game. I wagered $3060 and ended up at $100. My high was almost $300 while the low being $20.

    I went to cashout the $100 and the cashier would not let me. Apparently the casino considers all 21 card games are considered black jack. Management refuses to to send me the $100.

    Apparently, the manager is going to come on here and discuss this issue. I would appreciate everyones opinon on this. Do any of you consider pontoon to be blackjack? Does anyone here find their war rules fair?

    thanks
     
  2. Dec 9, 2005
  3. umberto

    umberto Dormant account

    Vip sports really have problem with the restricted games. Pontoon in fact is a blackjack game but I cannot blame you. Their rules mention :

    You should have asked what they mean with
    .

    Their cs does not help a lot either. When I received the sign up bonus they told that I may only play slots. I argue with them driving them to their own terms and conditions. They accepted their fault. A firend of mine received the bonus and live chat cs told him that slots only are eligible. Nothing changed to their attitude although I made a clear complaint about misleading players.

    They I asked, just to be sure, if i can play caribbean poker. And imagine the answer of the cs... They told me no. They said that caribbean is a form of video poker.....!!!!!!! Oh god! I understood that they know nothing and told them to ask a supervisor there. The guy confirmed that caribbean is not a form of video poker.
     
  4. Dec 10, 2005
  5. uungy

    uungy Dormant account PABnononaccred PABnoaccred PABaccred

    I believe all RTG casinos if you fols on war, they take it all, not half!

    I too find it very unfair, and think they should really do omething about it!
     
  6. Dec 11, 2005
  7. rudycali

    rudycali Dormant account

    Occupation:
    student
    Location:
    redding
    I believe any casual casino player would think that any form of black jack would be atlantic and vegas strip and downton as well as classic, progessive and European.

    To me pontoon is just a 21 card game.
     
  8. Dec 11, 2005
  9. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Jeeeze! Some of the posts we get here are unbelievable!!!

    I can't imagine how anyone could stick their whole balance of $200 on one hand of War without knowing the rules! :eek:
    Crazy, crazy stuff!

    However, I do agree that in my opinion Pontoon is NOT a form of Blackjack.
    If the rules say 'no BlackJack' variants I would expect Pontoon to be OK.
    Only if they say 'No 21 games' would I expect Pontoon to be excluded from WR.

    Also we have here another example of inept CS - how do these people get their jobs when they seem to no very little about gambling or the T&C's of the casino they work for?
    I guess the casino's don't want to pay more than minimum wage for them - and get what they pay for. :(
     
  10. Dec 11, 2005
  11. caruso

    caruso Banned User - repetitive violations of 1.6 - troll

    Occupation:
    Casino apologist
    Location:
    England
    Pontoon is a blackjack variant, same as Caribbean 21.
     
  12. Dec 12, 2005
  13. tryme1

    tryme1 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Marketing Consultant
    Location:
    UK
    Yeah, I would consider pontoon to be covered by the wagering requirements for blackjack.

    I'm a little confused that you were 'forced' to play in the download casino. I'm not quite sure how anyone could 'force' you to do anything, but I'd be interested to know how VipSports (who I have an account with myself, though I've only gambled on sports) are promoting this new casino.
     
  14. Dec 19, 2005
  15. VMSCasinos

    VMSCasinos Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    Curacao
    Hello Everyone.

    This is John Olsen and I am the casino manager at VIPcasinos.com.

    I personally handled this account and belief that I handled this situation very fair. The player was playing War and did not realize that if you fold a hand you are not reimbursed the bet. This is clearly stated in the rules that are posted on the following page You must register/login in order to see the link.. The player was upset because he lost $100 on the hand that he folded.

    I realized that the player did not receive a sign up bonus. At this point I entered his bonus immediately with the agreement that he would reach our regular roll over requirements You must register/login in order to see the link.. This includes a rollover of all forms of Blackjack. The player than rolled over the amount playing Pontoon. The player contacted me again complaining that Pontoon is not included for roll over requirement. I stated that Pontoon is considered Black Jack at our casino because the game is very similar to Black Jack. Once again if you look at the rules page You must register/login in order to see the link. Pontoon is included on the same page as regular Black Jack. This would lead me to believe that our rules are very clear.

    Once again I was willing to make another compromise with this player. I explained to him that I was willing to reduce the rollover requirement to give him a chance to win his money back. The players had deposited $100 and withdrew $100. This means that the player was playing with the houses money and doing everything that he could to manipulate the rules of our games in an attempt to win $100. We made every possible concession for this player and handled the situation very fair.

    The reason that we only offer bonuses for RTG games is we are trying to promote that casino over our legacy casino. The other reason is that the games are much more enjoyable for the players.

    Thank you,

    John
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. Dec 20, 2005
  17. buck

    buck Experienced Member

    Location:
    Midwest USA
    More Than Fair

    EOM
    TY
     
  18. Dec 20, 2005
  19. Dirk Diggler

    Dirk Diggler Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Company Secretary
    Location:
    UK
    In my opinion the terms and conditions, the software, or the website do not make it clear that pontoon is a form of blackjack and therefore the player should be allowed to count wagering on that game.

    The quesiton that needs to be asked in my opinion is whether the player could reasonably believe that pontoon is not a form of blackjack, which I'm sure most people would agree is quite possible so therefore the wagering should count.
     
  20. Dec 20, 2005
  21. betting88

    betting88 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    advertsing
    Location:
    canada
    The casinos always like to make tricks on Ts and Cs. They bury these things deeply.
     
  22. Dec 20, 2005
  23. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
    I think that John handled this issue fairly and squarely. Actually,the player lost the whole lot in his first bet but the casino gave him back his deposit and allowed him to cash out if he met the WRs. Now that there is some obscurity as to whether pontoon should be counted as a variant of BJ,the player should do the right thing and continue wagering on the allowed games instead of arguing.
    If it was simply a bonus WR issue,the player should be given the benefit of the doubt. To me,it seems that he takes advantage of the bonus and plays a game of even chance to get his deposit of $100 to $400 and if successful to play minimum wagers to get to the WR and then cash out. If this is true,I have advice for him. Play Paikow Poker to meet the WRs. You often get pushes and your money back. if you win,you only pay a comission of 5% so in his case,if he wins he gets $390 and he would have played $400 in WRs if he had pushed in an earlier game.
     
    1 person likes this.
  24. Dec 20, 2005
  25. VMSCasinos

    VMSCasinos Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    Curacao
    I would have to disagree with your first comment. However, to ensure that this problem does not arise again I have changed the Tics to read. All forms of Black Jack & 21.

    On to your second point which is a very good point I must say. In my opinion the games are very similar. In fact all of the basic principals of the game including 2 cards being dealt to the player and dealer, the object of the game is to get closest to 21 without going over and the player acts first are identical. I must say that there are a number of slight rule changes but a reasonable person would say that Pontoon and Black Jack are similar.

    Thank you,

    John
     
  26. Dec 20, 2005
  27. Macgyver

    Macgyver Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    North Carolina
    I don't mean this to sound sarcastic, as its honest intent is to help, but why not simply add the word "Pontoon" (or any other games that you consider to be BJ variants) to those T&C's if you're already making changes to them?
     
    1 person likes this.
  28. Dec 21, 2005
  29. scrollock

    scrollock Senior Member

    Occupation:
    google
    Location:
    boro, uk
    i have to agree with chuchu.

    also this player made a boob by not making himself familiar with the game rules of this casino, then the casino showed good faith and gave him a chance of getting his money back.

    so on the issue of BJ and the 21 issue he should show good faith towards the casinos decision, as he was playing with money he wouldn't of had if it wasn't for the casino in the first place, not to mention that the casino showed further good faith by reducing his WR (something the player forgot to mention), so by the casino reducing the WR the wagering he had done had not all been for nothing after all anyway.

    all the money on one hand...Hmmmm, playing pontoon as a replacement for BJ...Hmmm, sounds like a bonus hunt gone wrong, if you want to make that your profession then fair enough aslong as you remain in rules, however those rules which are the same ones that you rely on to get paid are ones you should make yourself familiar with as they will be the same ones that stop you being paid when you dont bother to read them.
     
  30. Dec 21, 2005
  31. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    T & C

    I have had a look at these T & C, they seem overly complex to me with reference to "deposit fees" in the WR, and formulae about positive and negative lifetime balances. Not surprising that some new players read this and don't really understand, then ignore it and play anyway hoping they will muddle along OK.
    There are other unusual rules also, but they at least seem a little clearer, but it seems to boil down to players who win at the casino then getting second class treatment when it comes to future promotions.
    Personally, T & C should be the same for all players whether they have lost or won their bets at the casino with their previous deposit(s).
    For absolute clarification, a link should be provided that lists each excluded game, and each included game, individually. There should be no chance of an argument with this as to what is or is not Blackjack, Video Poker etc. (Other casinos should do this too!). The page showing Pontoon together with Blackjack is not proof that they are the same game, just that they are similar, just as Video Poker is similar to table poker in principle, but with different payouts and rules.
    For the pedant, it would be more accurate to say that Blackjack is a type of Pontoon developed mainly in the USA, and brought back to Europe as European Blackjack.
    The changed terms with reference to "21" games does now make it clear that any game with 21 being an objective is covered.
     
  32. Dec 21, 2005
  33. VMSCasinos

    VMSCasinos Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    Curacao
    First of all I would like to thank everyone for responding to this string. The point of adding all of the games to the T&Cs is a good one. The only reason that I didn't add all of the games is because the list would be quite large. If you all feel that this would clear things up I will add all of the games.

    I will acknowledge that our T&C's are very cumbersome. To be frank allot of the rules developed from Sports bettors as we have historically been a Sports book with a Casino attached to it. Over the course of the last year we have made a commitment to becoming a Casino with a Sports book attached to it. To sum it up the majority of these rules are in place to protect us from sports bonuses hunters and punters.

    I will gladly remove any rules that are unfair to Casino players. Also, please let me know if you have any other suggestions that will make life easier for a Casino player.

    Thank you,

    John
     
  34. Dec 21, 2005
  35. scrollock

    scrollock Senior Member

    Occupation:
    google
    Location:
    boro, uk
    i will gladly help,

    first of all just scrap all of the sportsbook bonuses because they are all bonus hunters unlike us good casino players on here.

    use to money saved from sportsbook bonuses and invest them in even better casino bonuses, you did say you want to be a casino with a sportsbook, then this is the way to go.

    sensible rule changes, allow all BJ games, roulette and baccarat, allow players to bet red/black player/banker without penalty.

    some of the UK outfits have WR as low as x 1.5 of the deposit+bonus , so to make yourself the market leader, you will have to have a WR of x1 of deposit + bonus.

    feel free to add a bonus to my account when you make these changes to show your gratitude.
     
  36. Dec 21, 2005
  37. Macgyver

    Macgyver Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    North Carolina
    I'm hoping this in the spirit of sarcasm because some of those suggestions are just flat-out ridiculuous ... and this is from someone who rarely plays without a bonus.

    1x WR?? :what:

    Yeah, right ... :lolup:
     
  38. Dec 22, 2005
  39. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
    Yeah,make things simple. IMO set the WRs at 30x bonus(not deposits + bonus) and allow BJ,roulette and baccarat although for the latter 2 betting on both black/red and banker/player are not counted for meeting WRs.
     

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