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mack341

Meister Member
Joined
May 8, 2018
Location
south east england
With respect mack, I don't have to, because I'm not the one who started a thread stating that VS are doing something 'underhanded'.

No I appreciate that but you do have 100% confidence in the ukgc protection system which is the flip side of the argument, also though how can I prove ukgc do not have it written down anywhere [re fines and rtp issues] proving a negative is very difficult.

I was looking at a similar doc to the one you posted:

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And noticed they shift between using 'must' and 'should' so is one a mandatory action and the other a recommendation?

They talk about access to the source code should be strictly limited, which leads me to think there are potential problems other than a game not meeting rtp target.

I think if an issue arose with a game it'd be sorted out all hush-hush, they'd not be announcing 'hey mr public an unscrupulus bent game was out there in the wild, being played by thousands, it got past the testing houses etc..' imagine the reaction from long term gamblers wondering if they had been screwed previously, how could the ukgc maintain confidence that this was indeed a first?
 

ChopleyIOM

Toxic Wokesel Libtard Snowflake Remoaner Marxist
webby
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Location
IOM
No I appreciate that but you do have 100% confidence in the ukgc protection system which is the flip side of the argument, also though how can I prove ukgc do not have it written down anywhere [re fines and rtp issues] proving a negative is very difficult.

I was looking at a similar doc to the one you posted:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


And noticed they shift between using 'must' and 'should' so is one a mandatory action and the other a recommendation?

They talk about access to the source code should be strictly limited, which leads me to think there are potential problems other than a game not meeting rtp target.

I think if an issue arose with a game it'd be sorted out all hush-hush, they'd not be announcing 'hey mr public an unscrupulus bent game was out there in the wild, being played by thousands, it got past the testing houses etc..' imagine the reaction from long term gamblers wondering if they had been screwed previously, how could the ukgc maintain confidence that this was indeed a first?

At no point have I stated I have 100% confidence in the UKGC, what I have said is I think it is highly unlikely, to the point of near impossibility, that a game could exist out in the wild, at a UKGC licensed casino, that was consistently failing to meet RTP.

But that isn't even what's being alleged here, the accusation made is that there is something 'underhanded' going on at VS, although not apparently that the games aren't reaching RTP, just that the games are playing 'wrong' - which is amorphous and nebulous to the point of being meaningless.

I'd have more time for this stuff if there was even remotely any evidence to back it up. For example long time CM members will probably remember the big fuss over the Fin Spielo games over at Betfred, where someone came to CM with enough statistical evidence to actually back their claims up, and that one actually went somewhere (and created quite the fuss in the process, and earned me a temporary ban from CM too!).

All we've got here, frankly, is 'I lost money playing random games with a house edge and I'm a bit cross about it'.
 

snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
All we've got here, frankly, is 'I lost money playing random games with a house edge and I'm a bit cross about it'.
When did I ever say the games were random? That is exactly the thing I am not saying. If you’re going to quote someone, the least you can do is make sure the quote is correct.:rolleyes:
 

Reelsoffun

When it comes to gambling, timing is everything.
Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Location
UK
Wow you must do well if your average bonus is 30x.

Do not play it often but most of the bonuses i ever got were absolute crap. Think i would need a 1000x bonus next time to get my average up to 30x.

Im Assuming your joking about your average being less than 30x as others have said i believe the overall average bonanza is about 100x thats taking into account 17's + ones I would say the average 12 spin is about 90-95x

Its easy to work out your actual figure though if you keep a record of all your bonuses.......

My stats support the figures above so feels right to me
 

paul7388

Ueber Meister
MM
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Location
glasgow scotland
Im Assuming your joking about your average being less than 30x as others have said i believe the overall average bonanza is about 100x thats taking into account 17's + ones I would say the average 12 spin is about 90-95x

Its easy to work out your actual figure though if you keep a record of all your bonuses.......

My stats support the figures above so feels right to me
Actually i would say i was pretty serious.

But like i say not a game i play often. And when i do i often get no bonus or a bonus that returns 10x stake or less. Had a couple of decent bonuses but take into account all the poor bonuses and average would probably actually be less than 30x.

Had a few good base game hits tho. But like i say i have never been lucky on it since it came out. Never liked it much or found the fascination so rarely play it. But take Extra Chilli that was always luckier for me. So given the choice would play that well before Bonanza. And with all the other Megaways to me Bonanza is a poor choice of slot to play. Most others have shown they can and indeed do pay monster wins.
 

ChopleyIOM

Toxic Wokesel Libtard Snowflake Remoaner Marxist
webby
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Location
IOM
Im Assuming your joking about your average being less than 30x as others have said i believe the overall average bonanza is about 100x thats taking into account 17's + ones I would say the average 12 spin is about 90-95x

Its easy to work out your actual figure though if you keep a record of all your bonuses.......

My stats support the figures above so feels right to me

From memory 12 spin average is 96x, IIRC dunover had the actual operator stats or something, so it was easy enough to work out from there. This explains the horribly low feature frequency on Bonanza compared to most other slots.
 

ChopleyIOM

Toxic Wokesel Libtard Snowflake Remoaner Marxist
webby
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Location
IOM
When did I ever say the games were random? That is exactly the thing I am not saying. If you’re going to quote someone, the least you can do is make sure the quote is correct.:rolleyes:

I'm not quoting, I'm paraphrasing. If you're claiming the games are compensated or not random in some other way, then that's just another accusation to add to the list that we still have zero evidence to support.

I don't believe Bonanza or any of the other slots you refer to are compensated in any way, I believe they're random, they are tested and certified as random. As such your OP reads to me as 'I lost money playing random games with a house edge and I'm a bit cross about it'.
 

Reelsoffun

When it comes to gambling, timing is everything.
Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Location
UK
Actually i would say i was pretty serious.

But like i say not a game i play often. And when i do i often get no bonus or a bonus that returns 10x stake or less. Had a couple of decent bonuses but take into account all the poor bonuses and average would probably actually be less than 30x.

Had a few good base game hits tho. But like i say i have never been lucky on it since it came out. Never liked it much or found the fascination so rarely play it. But take Extra Chilli that was always luckier for me. So given the choice would play that well before Bonanza. And with all the other Megaways to me Bonanza is a poor choice of slot to play. Most others have shown they can and indeed do pay monster wins.

Well its a shame not all players are like me and track stuff then you would know exactly what your average is, every one would in fact then they could back up all these claims of this and that lol.

I like extra chilli too but it has about half the feature average of bonanza in at about 50x but thats the trade off of having a faster feature hit rate.
 

paul7388

Ueber Meister
MM
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Location
glasgow scotland
Well its a shame not all players are like me and track stuff then you would know exactly what your average is, every one would in fact then they could back up all these claims of this and that lol.

I like extra chilli too but it has about half the feature average of bonanza in at about 50x but thats the trade off of having a faster feature hit rate.
Never been into tracking my play.

I just play for fun and if i win good if not so be it. I remember most great bonuses and slots i can not win on. To me sitting playing slots and writing down every bonus and amount of spins etc. takes the fun out of it.
 

goatwack

Love grows where my rosemary goes
CAG
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Location
Londonia
Amazing isn't it, how each of these discussions devolve into the usual cliques, whereby on one side you have the truth-admonishers on the right side of history, and on the other, the tin-loving conspiracy nutjobs whose mantra is basically "It's rigged I tell ya!", you know the ones, the ones that are irrational, shouty, basing their argument on paranoid delusions etc.

Of far, far greater concern is one side's sheer devotion to everything being above board, that these companies are to be held to a standard alongside godliness; that they can do no wrong. I mean basically just swap the UKGC for the Government and these conversations can be mixed & matched in other threads for all they represent.

And yet it's the UKGC where we begin, because as they've demonstrated time and time again is that they couldn't give a flying monkey's about player protection, and are far more interested in blindsiding casinos with fines so as to pep up their coffers. And as history's proven, near-enough all companies are squeaky-clean, up until they're found out to be not.

Except in this case, where the burden of proof rests with the affected players, and somehow, said player is expected to simulate several billion spins through one game to 'prove' something is afoot, something completely and utterly unattainable, and even then, you can be sure the sample will be dismissed as too small. That seems to be the trump card (had to get trump in there) that seemingly nullifies any potential faults with these frankly substandard bits of software.

So again, you have to question whether people dismissing these experiences out of hand are really that blinkered, or have a few fingers in a few pies themselves, because in most other sectors or industries, exhaustive studies aren't usually sufficient reason to pull a product, or deem it 'altered'. In fact, these products are removed faster than you can shake a stick at, and yet, in this ever-lovable brown-envelope-swapping pastime, it's A-ok and the subsequent 'talk to the hand' default setting. I'd be inclined to say if anything's truly rigged against the players, it's the system they've cushtily set up for themselves.

We live in an age where 'feelings' are taken at such high currency that objectivity's all but forgotten. In fact, reading back some of the earlier posts in this thread, I began to cry. Then I showed them to the missus, and she began to cry. Then she showed them to her brother and sure enough, he began to cry too.

Don't fancy working a hard job? Don't worry, we respect your feelings, your truth. Want to call up 'down', or left 'right', that's alright, your feelings MATTER, that much is evident.

Yet holy cow if someone dares to submit their experiences with a clearly defective product - and let's get real here, Evolution have altered the gameplay - then out comes the derision and general dismissals. Why would someone who's played the game religiously for nigh-on six years not have any modicum of authority on the subject?

This industry pulls more rank than a Pound-a-pint Glasgow nightclub, and to be honest, that's just as tiresome as hearing the paranoid naysayers. But there you go :cool:
 
Last edited:

Kroffe

Senior Member
MM
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Location
sweden
Amazing isn't it, how each of these discussions devolve into the usual cliques, whereby on one side you have the truth-admonishers on the right side of history, and on the other, the tin-loving conspiracy nutjobs whose mantra is basically "It's rigged I tell ya!", you know the ones, the ones that are irrational, shouty, basing their argument on paranoid delusions etc.

Of far, far greater concern is one side's sheer devotion to everything being above board, that these companies are to be held to a standard alongside godliness; that they can do no wrong. I mean basically just swap the UKGC for the Government and these conversations can be mixed & matched in other threads for all they represent.

And yet it's the UKGC where we begin, because as they've demonstrated time and time again is that they couldn't give a flying monkey's about player protection, and are far more interested in blindsiding casinos with fines so as to pep up their coffers. And as history's proven, near-enough all companies are squeaky-clean, up until they're found out to be not.

Except in this case, where the burden of proof rests with the affected players, and somehow, said player is expected to simulate several billion spins through one game to 'prove' something is afoot, something completely and utterly unattainable, and even then, you can be sure the sample will be dismissed as too small. That seems to be the trump card (had to get trump in there) that seemingly nullifies any potential faults with these frankly substandard bits of software.

So again, you have to question whether people dismissing these experiences out of hand are really that blinkered, or have a few fingers in a few pies themselves, because in most other sectors or industries, exhaustive studies aren't usually sufficient reason to pull a product, or deem it 'altered'. In fact, these products are removed faster than you can shake a stick at, and yet, in this ever-lovable brown-envelope-swapping pastime, it's A-ok and the subsequent 'talk to the hand' default setting. I'd be inclined to say if anything's truly rigged against the players, it's the system they've cushtily set up for themselves.

We live in an age where 'feelings' are taken at such high currency that objectivity's all but forgotten. In fact, reading back some of the earlier posts in this thread, I began to cry. Then I showed them to the missus, and she began to cry. Then she showed them to her brother and sure enough, he began to cry too.

Don't fancy working a hard job? Don't worry, we respect your feelings, your truth. Want to call up 'down', or left 'right', that's alright, your feelings MATTER, that much is evident.

Yet holy cow if someone dares to submit their experiences with a clearly defective product - and let's get real here, Evolution have altered the gameplay - then out comes the derision and general dismissals. Why would someone who's played the game religiously for nigh-on six years not not have any modicum of authority on the subject?

This industry pulls more rank than a Pound-a-pint Glasgow nightclub, and to be honest, that's just as tiresome as hearing the paranoid naysayers. But there you go :cool:
1.jpg

I cant use the shield reaction thing.
 
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snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
Amazing isn't it, how each of these discussions devolve into the usual cliques, whereby on one side you have the truth-admonishers on the right side of history, and on the other, the tin-loving conspiracy nutjobs whose mantra is basically "It's rigged I tell ya!", you know the ones, the ones that are irrational, shouty, basing their argument on paranoid delusions etc.

Of far, far greater concern is one side's sheer devotion to everything being above board, that these companies are to be held to a standard alongside godliness; that they can do no wrong. I mean basically just swap the UKGC for the Government and these conversations can be mixed & matched in other threads for all they represent.

And yet it's the UKGC where we begin, because as they've demonstrated time and time again is that they couldn't give a flying monkey's about player protection, and are far more interested in blindsiding casinos with fines so as to pep up their coffers. And as history's proven, near-enough all companies are squeaky-clean, up until they're found out to be not.

Except in this case, where the burden of proof rests with the affected players, and somehow, said player is expected to simulate several billion spins through one game to 'prove' something is afoot, something completely and utterly unattainable, and even then, you can be sure the sample will be dismissed as too small. That seems to be the trump card (had to get trump in there) that seemingly nullifies any potential faults with these frankly substandard bits of software.

So again, you have to question whether people dismissing these experiences out of hand are really that blinkered, or have a few fingers in a few pies themselves, because in most other sectors or industries, exhaustive studies aren't usually sufficient reason to pull a product, or deem it 'altered'. In fact, these products are removed faster than you can shake a stick at, and yet, in this ever-lovable brown-envelope-swapping pastime, it's A-ok and the subsequent 'talk to the hand' default setting. I'd be inclined to say if anything's truly rigged against the players, it's the system they've cushtily set up for themselves.

We live in an age where 'feelings' are taken at such high currency that objectivity's all but forgotten. In fact, reading back some of the earlier posts in this thread, I began to cry. Then I showed them to the missus, and she began to cry. Then she showed them to her brother and sure enough, he began to cry too.

Don't fancy working a hard job? Don't worry, we respect your feelings, your truth. Want to call up 'down', or left 'right', that's alright, your feelings MATTER, that much is evident.

Yet holy cow if someone dares to submit their experiences with a clearly defective product - and let's get real here, Evolution have altered the gameplay - then out comes the derision and general dismissals. Why would someone who's played the game religiously for nigh-on six years not not have any modicum of authority on the subject?

This industry pulls more rank than a Pound-a-pint Glasgow nightclub, and to be honest, that's just as tiresome as hearing the paranoid naysayers. But there you go :cool:
Goatwack for prime minister. I’m in.
 

Reelsoffun

When it comes to gambling, timing is everything.
Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Location
UK
Never been into tracking my play.

I just play for fun and if i win good if not so be it. I remember most great bonuses and slots i can not win on. To me sitting playing slots and writing down every bonus and amount of spins etc. takes the fun out of it.

HAHA im not that sad that I track everything, but I screen record every feature and just put game, stake and amount won on a spreadsheet and it does the rest, its handy for games you play a lot to see whats happening over time. :)
 

ChopleyIOM

Toxic Wokesel Libtard Snowflake Remoaner Marxist
webby
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Location
IOM
Amazing isn't it, how each of these discussions devolve into the usual cliques, whereby on one side you have the truth-admonishers on the right side of history, and on the other, the tin-loving conspiracy nutjobs whose mantra is basically "It's rigged I tell ya!", you know the ones, the ones that are irrational, shouty, basing their argument on paranoid delusions etc.

Of far, far greater concern is one side's sheer devotion to everything being above board, that these companies are to be held to a standard alongside godliness; that they can do no wrong. I mean basically just swap the UKGC for the Government and these conversations can be mixed & matched in other threads for all they represent.

And yet it's the UKGC where we begin, because as they've demonstrated time and time again is that they couldn't give a flying monkey's about player protection, and are far more interested in blindsiding casinos with fines so as to pep up their coffers. And as history's proven, near-enough all companies are squeaky-clean, up until they're found out to be not.

Except in this case, where the burden of proof rests with the affected players, and somehow, said player is expected to simulate several billion spins through one game to 'prove' something is afoot, something completely and utterly unattainable, and even then, you can be sure the sample will be dismissed as too small. That seems to be the trump card (had to get trump in there) that seemingly nullifies any potential faults with these frankly substandard bits of software.

So again, you have to question whether people dismissing these experiences out of hand are really that blinkered, or have a few fingers in a few pies themselves, because in most other sectors or industries, exhaustive studies aren't usually sufficient reason to pull a product, or deem it 'altered'. In fact, these products are removed faster than you can shake a stick at, and yet, in this ever-lovable brown-envelope-swapping pastime, it's A-ok and the subsequent 'talk to the hand' default setting. I'd be inclined to say if anything's truly rigged against the players, it's the system they've cushtily set up for themselves.

We live in an age where 'feelings' are taken at such high currency that objectivity's all but forgotten. In fact, reading back some of the earlier posts in this thread, I began to cry. Then I showed them to the missus, and she began to cry. Then she showed them to her brother and sure enough, he began to cry too.

Don't fancy working a hard job? Don't worry, we respect your feelings, your truth. Want to call up 'down', or left 'right', that's alright, your feelings MATTER, that much is evident.

Yet holy cow if someone dares to submit their experiences with a clearly defective product - and let's get real here, Evolution have altered the gameplay - then out comes the derision and general dismissals. Why would someone who's played the game religiously for nigh-on six years not have any modicum of authority on the subject?

This industry pulls more rank than a Pound-a-pint Glasgow nightclub, and to be honest, that's just as tiresome as hearing the paranoid naysayers. But there you go :cool:

You talk a good talk Mr Goaty, I'll give you that, and I award your post a solid nine out of ten for inspiring rhetoric and crowd-pleasing tubthumping - the fact remains however that the case for the prosecution has nothing of substance here.

Maybe Evolution have altered how Bonanza meets its (COMPLETLEY UNALTERED) RTP for no discernible reason whatsoever other than to upset a few folks here at CM, (and other games as well that now fall under their umbrella), that's entirely possible, and also entirely within the rules.

I've politely asked more than once now as to what the accusation is here, to actually put some flesh on the bones of how some slots (and specifically VS as per this thread's title) are behaving in an 'underhanded' manner beyond simply extracting their inbuilt house edge from the player over time, as would be expected.

I'm no particular fan of the online casino 'industry', or the UKGC, I've called out what I see as the industry's dreadful behaviour on multiple occasions (and did so regularly on my old YouTube channel, to the extent that it started to attract some very unwanted attention), and also what I see as the failings of the UKGC, but I also give credit to what I see as the 'good operators', such as 3Dice.

In the case of this thread, one simple stat would kind of put the whole thing to bed, what are snorky's lifetime RTP stats at VS? If he asks the casino for that information, they should be able to give it to him, clearly he's done a LOT of spins there over the last few years, I've already said I'd wager money on the fact he'll be within 1% of T-RTP up or down, aggregated across all slots, and yet that fundamental piece of information isn't forthcoming.

For example reelsoffun, who tracks his features religiously and keeps a record of his stats, was able to nail down Bonanza's average feature pay to within the margin of error, and he did that just by maintaining his own numbers player side, no special trickery involved, just recording numbers and doing maths - but hey, feelings beat facts, right?

Finally for this post, I really hope that anyone who buys into all this conspiracy theory nonsense, isn't staking one single pound, even one single penny, playing online slots, games that they actively seem to believe are cheating them in nefarious but completely unexplainable and impossible to evidence ways, because that'd be really stupid.
 
Last edited:

Kroffe

Senior Member
MM
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Location
sweden
Does it really matter if reelsoffun happens to fall within the supposed average for a feature?
Unless he has millions of features recorded its all statistically insignificant, right?

Even if i hand over numbers from 50k features to UKGC/Spelinspektionen with an average that is much lower than the supposed average all i would get is 'come back when you have the stats from 10 000 000 features recorded'
Because when the rtp is calculated over tens of billions of spins, 50k features is a drop in the ocean.

But lets dream and say an investigation would take place, would UKGC or Spelinspektionen do it themselves?
Ive never heard of them doing anything like that, they probably dont have the capability to even do it.
Im guessing a 'testing house' or whatever they are called would be tasked with doing it, or given the incompetence of UKGC/Spelinspektionen i wouldnt be surprised if they asked the Casino in question to investigate it.
A bit like the police investigating themselves only to come back and say 'we investigated ourselves and decided we did nothing wrong', which i think we all know is not exactly a good way to find out if there has been any shady shit happening.

I wouldnt be playing if i thought it was all rigged to be impossible to win, but im not so blue-eyed to just trust that everything is above board in the casino industry and that everybody follows the rules.
 
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goatwack

Love grows where my rosemary goes
CAG
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Location
Londonia
You talk a good talk Mr Goaty, I'll give you that, and I award your post a solid nine out of ten for inspiring rhetoric and crowd-pleasing tubthumping - the fact remains however that the case for the prosecution has nothing of substance here.

Maybe Evolution have altered how Bonanza meets its (COMPLETLEY UNALTERED) RTP for no discernible reason whatsoever other than to upset a few folks here at CM, (and other games as well that now fall under their umbrella), that's entirely possible, and also entirely within the rules.

I've politely asked more than once now as to what the accusation is here, to actually put some flesh on the bones of how some slots (and specifically VS as per this thread's title) are behaving in an 'underhanded' manner beyond simply extracting their inbuilt house edge from the player over time, as would be expected.

I'm no particular fan of the online casino 'industry', or the UKGC, I've called out what I see as the industry's dreadful behaviour on multiple occasions (and did so regularly on my old YouTube channel, to the extent that it started to attract some very unwanted attention), and also what I see as the failings of the UKGC, but I also give credit to what I see as the 'good operators', such as 3Dice.

In the case of this thread, one simple stat would kind of put the whole thing to bed, what are snorky's lifetime RTP stats at VS? If he asks the casino for that information, they should be able to give it to him, clearly he's done a LOT of spins there over the last few years, I've already said I'd wager money on the fact he'll be within 1% of T-RTP up or down, aggregated across all slots, and yet that fundamental piece of information isn't forthcoming.

For example reelsoffun, who tracks his features religiously and keeps a record of his stats, was able to nail down Bonanza's average feature pay to within the margin of error, and he did that just by maintaining his own numbers player side, no special trickery involved, just recording numbers and doing maths - but hey, feelings beat facts, right?

Finally for this post, I really hope that anyone who buys into also this conspiracy theory nonsense, isn't staking one single pound, even one single penny, playing online slots, games that they actively seem to believe are cheating them in nefarious but completely unexplainable and impossible to evidence ways, because that'd be really stupid.
These things will always be subjective though, will they not? Because how on Gods green earth is anyone single player expected to fulfil the 10 billion+ quota 'needed' to definitively put notions of foul play to rest?

How can knowing a game's working's intimately be rebuked based on the slot designer's own in-house testing?

The fact remains that the 'industry' doesn't exactly make testing a game over billions of spins a doddle, and so most will base their findings on 'merely' thousands of spins, though in Snorky's case I'd say he's run a good million or two through it.

So for argument's sake, if he found Bonanza to be playing fairly balanced for the first half a million spins, but then, to coincide with a different company's acquisition of the IP, went on on a terrible run for the next 500,000 spins, you wouldn't think at the very least that the distribution of wins had been changed to some extent? Because constantly telling players that no matter what happens, you'll hit that RTP in the end doesn't really cut it, nor excuse the sudden shonky gameplay evidenced :cool:
 

ChopleyIOM

Toxic Wokesel Libtard Snowflake Remoaner Marxist
webby
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Location
IOM
Does it really matter if reelsoffun happens to fall within the supposed average for a feature?
Unless he has millions of features recorded its all statistically insignificant, right?

Even if i hand over numbers from 50k features to UKGC/Spelinspektionen with an average that is much lower than the supposed average all i would get is 'come back when you have the stats from 10 000 000 features recorded'
Because when the rtp is calculated over tens of billions of spins, 50k features is a drop in the ocean.

But lets dream and say an investigation would take place, would UKGC or Spelinspektionen do it themselves?
Ive never heard of them doing anything like that, they probably dont have the capability to even do it.
Im guessing a 'testing house' or whatever they are called would be tasked with doing it, or given the incompetence of UKGC/Spelinspektionen i wouldnt be surprised if they asked the Casino in question to investigate it.
A bit like the police investigating themselves only to come back and say 'we investigated ourselves and decided we did nothing wrong', which i think we all know is not exactly a good way to find out if there has been any shady shit happening.

I wouldnt be playing if i thought it was all rigged to be impossible to win, but im not so blue-eyed to just trust that everything is above board in the casino industry and that everybody follows the rules.

You don't need that many feature results to start to work out an average, especially in the case of something like Bonanza that in terms of feature results, isn't massively volatile. How many many features on Bonanza do you think reelsoffun has stats for? Millions, or maybe a few hundred, or a couple of thousand, and he still called it to within the margin of error.

Moreover, you don't need billions of spins, you'll be getting close-ish to T-RTP on a slot, even a very volatile one, after 50K-100K spins, because the massive pays are statistical outliers and don't exert a massive influence on a game's overall RTP.

Please don't conflate my position of 'random games with a generous house edge don't need to cheat' with 'I think the casino industry is whiter than white and the UKGC is perfect'. As a single example, I made my feelings very clear on NLC's more recent maths models and bonus buy slot design perfectly clear, and I thought it was scummy as fuck.
 

Najasaki

Keep It Simple, Stupid.
PABaccred
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Location
Your Happy Place
I'm no particular fan of the online casino 'industry', or the UKGC, I've called out what I see as the industry's dreadful behaviour on multiple occasions (and did so regularly on my old YouTube channel, to the extent that it started to attract some very unwanted attention)

That's wild. No wonder you quit cold turkey releasing slot videos talking about the industry.
I remember your Roshstein video generated a ton of views.

You should still release at least a few 3Dice gaming session videos here and there.
 

mightydegen

Newbie member
Joined
Dec 23, 2019
Location
Europe
These things will always be subjective though, will they not? Because how on Gods green earth is anyone single player expected to fulfil the 10 billion+ quota 'needed' to definitively put notions of foul play to rest?

How can knowing a game's working's intimately be rebuked based on the slot designer's own in-house testing?

The fact remains that the 'industry' doesn't exactly make testing a game over billions of spins a doddle, and so most will base their findings on 'merely' thousands of spins, though in Snorky's case I'd say he's run a good million or two through it.

So for argument's sake, if he found Bonanza to be playing fairly balanced for the first half a million spins, but then, to coincide with a different company's acquisition of the IP, went on on a terrible run for the next 500,000 spins, you wouldn't think at the very least that the distribution of wins had been changed to some extent? Because constantly telling players that no matter what happens, you'll hit that RTP in the end doesn't really cut it, nor excuse the sudden shonky gameplay evidenced :cool:
There is absolutely nothing subjective about this - In reality, I don't think you, or a few others on this thread truly understand the significance of differing RTP's. Snorky claims that he plays max RTP's is futile, especially when we are all aware VS host lower variants.

Here's some information, you and others may find interesting:

Lets say you deposit say £100 and play at £1.00 stakes on your 96% RTP slot game. Let’s assume no variance, so in other words every 1.00 spin will return you the RTP average of 0.96 for the slot. After 100 spins, you’d have 96.00 remaining. Play that back, at 1.00 spins and you would have approximately 92.00 left, by which time you will have played 196 spins. To cut a (hopefully long session short!) if you continue playing and recycling, you would have had 2476 spins before falling below a £1.00 balance eventually. Now do exactly the same with the slot now on 94% RTP, this figure would be 1651 spins, a reduction of 33%. Change that to 92% and you play 1238 spins, a reduction of 50%.

Understanding this difference is pretty key to understanding why legitimate Casinos (i'm not talking about black market/shady places here) do not need to defraud their player base. Numbers do not lie.
 

snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
I'm not quoting, I'm paraphrasing. If you're claiming the games are compensated or not random in some other way, then that's just another accusation to add to the list that we still have zero evidence to support.

I don't believe Bonanza or any of the other slots you refer to are compensated in any way, I believe they're random, they are tested and certified as random. As such your OP reads to me as 'I lost money playing random games with a house edge and I'm a bit cross about it'.
And when I do post something that looks extremely iffy at best, you choose to ignore it.
 

goatwack

Love grows where my rosemary goes
CAG
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Location
Londonia
There is absolutely nothing subjective about this - In reality, I don't think you, or a few others on this thread truly understand the significance of differing RTP's. Snorky claims that he plays max RTP's is futile, especially when we are all aware VS host lower variants.

Here's some information, you and others may find interesting:

Lets say you deposit say £100 and play at £1.00 stakes on your 96% RTP slot game. Let’s assume no variance, so in other words every 1.00 spin will return you the RTP average of 0.96 for the slot. After 100 spins, you’d have 96.00 remaining. Play that back, at 1.00 spins and you would have approximately 92.00 left, by which time you will have played 196 spins. To cut a (hopefully long session short!) if you continue playing and recycling, you would have had 2476 spins before falling below a £1.00 balance eventually. Now do exactly the same with the slot now on 94% RTP, this figure would be 1651 spins, a reduction of 33%. Change that to 92% and you play 1238 spins, a reduction of 50%.

Understanding this difference is pretty key to understanding why legitimate Casinos (i'm not talking about black market/shady places here) do not need to defraud their player base. Numbers do not lie.
Numbers that are stated as fact when players are unable to verify them in any meaningful way. Hence basing their findings on subjective experience like with any other product out there.

I'm well aware of how different RTP theoretically affect gameplay spans, so don't need the pep talk. But if you choose to believe in advance that designers' games play out exactly as intended, without any definitive outlying proof as it were, and contrary to what seasoned Bonanza players experience, then more bully for you!
 

mightydegen

Newbie member
Joined
Dec 23, 2019
Location
Europe
Numbers that are stated as fact when players are unable to verify them in any meaningful way. Hence basing their findings on subjective experience like with any other product out there.

I'm well aware of how different RTP theoretically affect gameplay spans, so don't need the pep talk. But if you choose to believe in advance that designers' games play out exactly as intended, without any definitive outlying proof as it were, and contrary to what seasoned Bonanza players experience, then more bully for you.
Have you ever bothered to ask a casino your actual RTP on a game you have played hundreds of thousands of spins on? Or do you just simply ‘feel’ like the games aren’t playing as intended?
 

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