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Vegas Partner Lounge - Abusive

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by Stanford, Oct 29, 2004.

    Oct 29, 2004
  1. Stanford

    Stanford Dormant account

    Location:
    USA
    While I was in Las Vegas I received an email from Vegas Partners Lounge saying I was abusing their bonus. It was based on my style of play. They say my style is characterized by cashing in close to the minimum wagering requirements and taking minimum risk.

    Here is my style and the rules I promote to recreational gamblers.

    1. Dont play with scared money. If you are afraid of losing, dont play.
    2. Budget each session in terms of dollars and time.
    3. Play only as much bonus as fits with your plan. Dont stretch for a bonus.
    4. Play games where the house edge is known. Slots should be kept at a minimum.
    5. After cashin, dont deposit again till you are paid.
    6. If you bust out, wait till the following day before returning. Cards and dice dont have memories and one should not chase lost money.
    7. Celebrate any win.

    In this case, many of the Vegas Partner Casinos offer up to $3,000 per month. While a true bonus professional will stretch for that bonus, I was well short of maxing the bonus. I would only deposit $180 for a $27 bonus in accordance with Rules 2 and 3.

    I cant max the bonus because if I lost my deposit I was done (Rule 6). And if I won, I was done till I collected (Rule 5).

    Now, I have played at these casinos without bonus on occasion, but under the new policy every deposit has a bonus. So this is how I usually play. I wager 25 to about 80 bucks at a time. Usually, I was wagering a $35 pass line bet and a $35 odd bet - eating up the bonus pretty fast. If I did well, I would play Jacks or Better Video Poker, but not single line. I was playing 4 lines at a time, which is riskier. I was trying to invest my profits to eventually hit a royal at the more speculative machine.

    But playing this way means I was risking a lot. I did manage to stop with wins about 23 times out of about 44 sessions as per rule number 2 and number 7. My wagering requirements would be 2070, and I suspect I was always over 2100 and sometimes over 2500.

    But I lost 21 times so about half. But only once did I just barely lose. Every other time I busted out completely rule number 1.

    This was a high risk-betting scheme that I was happy to win or lose with because I was under control. I was not persuaded by more bonuses to increase my wager over my budgeted amount. I was not concerned when I was betting large amounts and lost or when I busted out multiple times in a row. It was all thought out before hand. Turns out, I am a little bit behind.

    So my style? Not to take the maximum bonus. Bet aggressively losing the bonus and deposit half the time. Invest the winnings chasing the royal. And exceed the wagering requirement by some amount.

    The question then - Is this style of play abusive? If it is, I believe any player who plays under control will be considered an abusive player. There is another word for the non-abusive player compulsive.

    I think thats what all this bonus abuse discussion is really about. Casinos want players who play on tilt and if you are not one, they dont want you. And that is why eventually Congress has to ban online casino gambling. What a shame. I am just getting into Texas Holdem and I am sure the poker rooms will get banned also.

    Stanford.

    PS I used this same betting scheme in Las Vegas, but with Blackjack and VP last week. It wasnt considered abusive.
     
  2. Oct 31, 2004
  3. jayclub

    jayclub Dormant account

    Location:
    San Diego
    I had something simular happen. I played Jacks or Better and I played the 10 line game so i usually crapped out before i played the "requirements". I don't understand what they want.
     
  4. Nov 1, 2004
  5. Slotster!

    Slotster! I predict a riot. CAG

    Occupation:
    al Hazard
    Location:
    Location, Location!
    They want you to lose, and come back for more with your own money!

    A reputable online casino will publicly smile as much when you win, as much as they privately smile when you lose... just like the real live land based one's do.
     
  6. Nov 1, 2004
  7. sw2003

    sw2003 Dormant account

    Location:
    somewhere :)
    They want you to lose more or they don't think you are giving them enough earnings to justify having you as a customer. That is just crazy. Basically they only want highrollers and everyone else should just stay far away.
     
  8. Nov 1, 2004
  9. Stanford

    Stanford Dormant account

    Location:
    USA
    Hi SW,

    I wasn't high rolling but I was giving the decent action. But controlled action. I was never going to tilt. I think that is responsible gaming and I think VPL should encourage that.

    Jayclub, the VPL rep here said something about me playing Video Poker. But as you can see, I only played that when I was ahead. But if they don't want us to play video poker, I wish they would just say so. I don't mind going by the rules, but VPL needs to be able to tell us the rules.

    If the rules is play a whole lot at a lot of high risk games, they don't deserve the praise they have been getting.

    Slotster I agree with you. A reputable casino will smile just as much, win or lose.

    I hope VPL will come here so we can have a discussion of this bonus abuse allegation. I think that is something that would be helpful for all.

    Stanford
     
  10. Nov 1, 2004
  11. nafanny29

    nafanny29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    financail adviser
    Location:
    London, England
    From your 1st post it is obvious you are not a bonus abuser and not really an advantage player either. As you state you are a gambler who plays games with a low house edge and you have very good control over your emotions and bankroll.

    If they really want to ban you then move on to a reputable casino who will value your custom.

    IMHO once any casino raises any bonus or gaming issues I would not risk another deposit with them.

    As for poker I dont think the casino even bothers to look at your play because they win every hand with the rake no matter which player wins.

    And with your self control you have the potential to become a very good online player mate :D
     
  12. Nov 1, 2004
  13. Chatmaster

    Chatmaster Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Online Marketing Specialist
    Location:
    South Africa
    Slotster! You can't compare Landbased casinos with Online Casinos, the rules are completely different. Bonus abusers are a big topic with online casinos. So I can understand that an online casino will monitor it and then try to regulate it. However, your WR should budget for bonus abusers and therefore this statement doesn't make sense to me. If you did in fact stuck to your rules and sometimes went over the required WR it seems fine, the Bonus Abusers I know cashin right on the WR.
     
  14. Nov 1, 2004
  15. Stanford

    Stanford Dormant account

    Location:
    USA
    Hi Chatmaster,

    Thanks for the response.

    I think the comparison is somewhat useful. Landbased casinos give away promotions too. I am going back to Vegas in January and I will probably receive more in promotional value than VPL and they have to pay for a huge overhead. An online casino has basically a few servers and some software.

    But the availability to play in your home is a real danger. That is why it is so importent that players play in a controlled manner. It has to be that way to keep it entertaining and not destructive.

    I do think this concept of "bonus abuser" is something that should be discussed. I don't believe there is such a thing. There are those that play according to the rules and those that don't. If one plays according to the rules their is no bonus abuse.

    There may be player abuse however. Trying to get players to play above their limits or using bonuses to attract the more compulsive is poor policy. VPL should welcome all who play fairly. At the very least they should come here and discuss what they consider bonus abuse and how players can avoid this bogus charge.

    After all, they actually posted that they wanted to know what they could do better. Well being up front with the players about the requirements is something they can do better. Let's see if the will enter into a non abusive discussion about it.

    hopeful,
    Stanford
     
  16. Nov 1, 2004
  17. Stanford

    Stanford Dormant account

    Location:
    USA
    Hi nafanny,

    I have a registered domain name and I will be putting up a site one of these days that tell people how to play more controlled. Who knows when I will get off my duff and do it.

    Gaming isn't my profession. I am a CPA by trade. Maybe that's where I get my emphasis on planning and budgeting. One thing I know. If one plays till the money is gone, the money will indeed be gone.

    Thank you for your comments.

    Stanford
     
  18. Nov 1, 2004
  19. VPL

    VPL Casino Representative

    Occupation:
    Call Centre Manager
    Location:
    South Africa
    Hi There All,

    I would just like to clear up a couple of things:

    Stanford has not been "banned". His accounts are all active, and he is welcome to play whenever he wants. No aspect of his playing or withdrawals has been or will be affected in future. He will just not be able to claim the 15/10/5% Deposit Bonus any longer. His account will be monitored, and if we deem his style of play to have changed sufficiently, access to our bonuses will be re-instated.

    We do like our winners. We regularly send our players gifts, and flowers when they cash in a large amount. They are also advertised on our websites, and our Message of the Day.

    Regards,

    Schalk
    Vegas Partner Lounge
     
  20. Nov 1, 2004
  21. Stanford

    Stanford Dormant account

    Location:
    USA
    Hi Schalk:

    Thank you for showing up here. I hope that I have laid out my style of play in a fair manner. As you have my details you can verify that.

    What I would like to do is evolve this discussion to this pecular notion of bonus abuse. Why is this bonus abuse?

    My contention is that controlled play as a "style of play" is vital to the financial health of online players. It isn't bonus abuse. The opposite is compulsive play. But even mild overplay is very dangerous to players and their families.

    I have asked what is it that VPL wants? Just as in a previous post, VPL asked what it is that players want. I think it is very importent that VPL be clear in their requirements and that they not encourage players to overplay. Can you see how your being upfront about your requirements would allow players to play in a controlled manner?

    I look forward to a courteous discussion of a controversial topic.

    Stanford
     
  22. Nov 1, 2004
  23. spearmaster

    spearmaster RIP Ted

    Occupation:
    Devil's Advocate
    Location:
    Heaven
    Not knowing Stanford's actual activity, I can't come to any conclusions - but if it is like he described, I would hardly call that bonus hunting, let alone bonus abuse...
     
  24. Nov 1, 2004
  25. Stanford

    Stanford Dormant account

    Location:
    USA
    Hi Spearmaster,

    I have had accounts at 777 Dragon and Cinema for a long time. And I have known about the 15% promotion for a long time.

    But it was only after the promotion here and the special Meister promotions that I got really interested in them. I started with the accounts I had. Then I add Crazy Vegas, Maple, and Sun Vegas.

    I evolved my plan and began play pretty much as I described.

    Right before I left to go to Las Vegas, I managed to get all my accounts in a positive position and cashed in - and headed out. I think that finance saw all of those cashins come though at once and freaked a bit. After all, they must have 1,000s of transactions to comb though and they can't spend hours going through history every time. They most likely didn't notice all the times I played to zero at craps. I say this because their email to me said that I was trying to preserve the bonus.

    I understand how that can happen. I think that this discussion can benefit VPL also because I am sure this is a difficult area for them and I sense they don't have a prescribed procedure.

    In all honesty, this "style of play" gave them a real shot at my money. And I think VPL will verify that.

    As always, thanks for your comments.

    Stanford
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2004
  26. Nov 1, 2004
  27. snuf419

    snuf419 Dormant account

    all of the experienced online gamblers get banned by a casino sooner or later

    as you said you have been ahead, so the casino should be the one who is crying, having 'raised' you with all the bonuses but getting a bad child.
    there are still 80+ MGs to play with.
     
  28. Nov 1, 2004
  29. Stanford

    Stanford Dormant account

    Location:
    USA
    Ah. Point of clarification. When I said I got my accounts positive, I just meant that I had pending cashins at all of them. I bust out a lot so that's a neat trick. I think overall, I may be a tad ahead due to the signon bonus. But for the 15% bonus I think I have lost a bit. Not bad though.

    Stanford.
     
  30. Nov 2, 2004
  31. Chatmaster

    Chatmaster Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Online Marketing Specialist
    Location:
    South Africa
    I think a good start will probable be to define what a bonus abuser is. In my view there are many online casino players that make them selves guilty of bonus abusing. A person that cruise the internet looking for free money and never make a real deposit if it is not acompanied by Free money. Study WR and cashin as close as posible to that requirement. It depends on where the casino draws the line, The fact that VPL is still willing to keep your account open means that they have good intentions.

    Lets look at why casinos offer free money and bonusses. When we look at this very competitive industry, "for a casino to stay in business it doesn't have a choice, everybody is doing it so ..." :p This is a statement I got from one of our players in a casual discussion on another forum. Although there is truth in this statement, it cannot be regarded as the main reason. Let's look at the internet and understand why free money was introduced. A few years back gambling on the internet was regarded as a dream and not reality. As we all know it is one of the fastest growing industries on the internet. But to convince people to play online, casinos offered incentives. This worked and has become an industry norm. Now let's look at a frequent player. A casino at some stage has to get the return on investment therefore the bonus system moves from a introduction reward to a loyalty reward. Therefore a player must be rewarded according to loyalty, if you are not loyal do you deserve anything? :cool:

    I am sure I stirred a bit with these statements, any comments :D
     
  32. Nov 2, 2004
  33. spearmaster

    spearmaster RIP Ted

    Occupation:
    Devil's Advocate
    Location:
    Heaven
    In your definition, replace the word "abuser" with "hunter" and you're okay.

    If you make an offer, expect it to be taken up. "Abuse" is not playing by the rules. "Hunting" is playing by the rules set down by the operation making the offer.

    Other than that, I have no argument with your argument... LOL... and of course you have every right to stop offering bonuses - but labeling it abuse will not help anyone because it is not abuse. Multiple accounts, banned games and insufficient playthrough is abuse.
     

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