Casino Complaint Users banned from William Hill and partners for unknown reasons

nordanland

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Location
Sweden
I would just like to notify you all. An increasing number of roulette players on different forums have similar experiencies as I have regarding Joyland casino, William Hill, Eurogrand and maybe more of the William Hill group. Well, this is my story:
The live roulette wheel on Eurogrand Casino has not worked for me for several weeks. I just played there a couple of times months ago. Mostly I have used some modified Solitude system on the RNG wheel. I only make 0,1$ bets so my winnings is a total of 125$ over a long time. It all started with me depositing 100$ last yea and soon losing it all. After some weeks I got some free 5$ on my account and after some more weeks another 5$. This started me playing my Solitude game. And after a couple of weeks I hade won back the 100$ I previously lost. I made a withdraw and had nothing on my account until they started to give me another 5$ for free.... It is now about 30$ on my account and I have not played for some weeks. And yesterday I asked the online support why the live tables were closed and today I got a letter from the casino management saying in a very polite and fraternising way that I was not allowed to place bets at the live tables. Eurogrand, 21Nova, Joyland and so on are all part of William Hill. And their policy gets clearer with every day it seems. Can it really be so that all roulette players that are making some profits are not welcome any more?? And the bad thing is that there is nothing you can do about it. A big part of the industry is sitting behind huge protecting walls of strange laws and rules. In fact the industry is sitting on all cards and the player has none, what so ever. It is kind of strange to find that an industry like that is allowed to work openly in a democratic society? Normally the judge hears you befor judging you. Well, last and once again - I have no idea what so ever what terrible crime I have committed on Eurogrand. All this said to confirm what others have experienced and to give a little warning concerning some casinos out there which the Casinomeister should now put on his black list. You can find more issues like this on Roulette CC just to give one example.

I wrote to them and asked for some kind of explanation and maybe you are interested in the letter Eurogrand sent to me. They really care for you as a son or daughter, wishing you all the best....... You will shure recognize the words......... :

"Dear Claes,

I hope you are well.

We write further to your recent contact with our Customer Support Team regarding the fact that you are unable to access the Live Games, specifically, the Live Roulette in our casino.

Eurogrand Casino reserves the right, through our terms and conditions, to accept or refuse the whole or part of any bet placed with ourselves. At times we may choose to restrict the game(s) which a customer may play, but this is within our right to do so. This practice is common throughout the gaming world and whilst we understand you may not be satisfied with this, it is our prerogative to do so.

We apologize for any inconvenience that this may cause you and value your on-going custom with Eurogrand Casino.

We appreciate your understanding regarding this matter. Should you have any other queries, please feel free to contact us.

Kind Regards,

Natalja Swanepoel
Account Specialist"

This is an automated answer: (just exactly the same as many others have received)

It seems to me that you are not welcome if you win. If you lose, they love you. ;-)
 

JackTenOff

Webmaster
webmeister
Joined
Jun 6, 2004
Location
uk
seems strange a casino would ban you from any of their games let alone roulette which is obviously impossible to beat no matter what 'systems' you use to play it, but as they say they can ban who they want for whatever reason they want. All you can do is move on to where someone will take your game play :)
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Location
-
.

I agree with deanimus. Just move on and find other casinos. I do not see the big case here as long as they have not confiscated any winnings and/or deposits.

William Hill has a rep on this forum. You can of course always ask him very polity if they can reconsider your case. Although I personally would not spend any time on it.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
The common thread in this is the "Roulette system". Clearly, Will Hill do not trust their live roulette games are being properly run, and that these systems DO in fact work on it over the long term, hence they ban all players who are identified as using one of these Roulette systems.

They hide behind their general "reserve the right to refuse", rather than admit the Roulette system has scared them off.

You and your forum buddies should use the Will Hill banning emails as marketing material, and sell your Roulette system (not here though;) ).

What you also need is your game logs from when you were able to access the game, and these could be pooled and analysed to see whether a mathematical reason for this can be found. If it can be shown mathematically that your system works, it can mean only one thing, the live Roulette is not random, and this means not being properly run in whatever studio makes it.

Many online casino operators have run scared of any systems, even the most ridiculous ones. Some have gone further (Grand Duke) by confiscating winnings because the player has used some kind of betting system.

Just as the membership here will laugh at any claims of a Roulette system that works over the long term, we laugh at any casino operators that are scared they will lose money long term from players using such a system.

Your tiny bets are not the issue, it is the detection of the system that is, and why so many players have been banned from the game.

It is VERY telling indeed that they have banned you from just this one game, yet you are a "valued customer" still, and welcome to play anything else. It clearly has nothing to do with other common issues, such as doubt about your ID, that normally lead to players getting banned, usually from the whole casino.

If you truly believe your system has long term potential, look for other casinos, even other softwares, that have nothing to do with Will Hill, but offer live Roulette. Here in the UK, we have live Roulette on the telly, run by "Supercasino". They may be less scared of your system than Will Hill, but you will have to see whether your country is allowed. You won't have the TV version, but may be able to play the live web version of the game.

Yours is not the first post here about being banned just from Live Roulette at Playtech, and the others were also using Roulette systems that shouldn't work, yet managed to scare Playtech into banning them.
 

nordanland

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Location
Sweden
The common thread in this is the "Roulette system. Clearly, Will Hill do not trust their live roulette games are being properly run, and that these systems DO in fact work on it over the long term, hence they ban all players who are identified as using one of these Roulette systems.

I think that is the point. And you are right. One thing that confuses me though is that almost all winnings I made was on RNG - not the live one. Since I only betted 0,1$ you must win quite some times before reaching a profit of - let us say 150$. I only played on the live wheel once or twice. Could it be that they use their software to identify your system (my Solitude one) and when they see you try to access the live wheel - they just stop you?? Many of us believe that RNG software analyzes your way of playing and then deliberately tries to make you lose more than the house edge motivates. Just in a way like a fruitmachine. Losing is part of the game. I do not dare play anymore on Eurogrands RNG. I think they have trapped me and I have made a withdraw to get my last dollars far away from them. Let us see if they payout. Amyway, the whole thinh is interesting and thank you very much for your informative answer. I play mostly today at Dublinbet, Celtic Casino and Betvoyager. It seems to work fine - so far.
 

Forever01

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Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
Melbourne, AUSTRALIA
I would say that the whole idea of players being "banned" because the casino has "detected" a system of play is a myth, and one that many buy in to.

The casino doesn't care if you are playing a "system" or not. If you are making bets in the table that the table allows, then you are perfectly and legally allowed to place bets however you like according to the rules of the table. If the wagers ate accepted, you are doing nothing wrong.

The only illegal thing is the use if bots or attempting to tamper with the software in any way. But to place a wager that the table allows and accepts is perfectly legal and fair play.

It could be possible that your challenge is related to something else other than the idea that you have been detected as a "systems" player. I suggest you enquire specifically, as a small $100 or so win is nothing, remember many win tens of thousands per day at some casinos and have no issues.
 

nordanland

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Location
Sweden
I would say that the whole idea of players being "banned" because the casino has "detected" a system of play is a myth, and one that many buy in to.

Well, you may of course be perfectly right. But the question still stands. Why have I and so many others got banned from live roulette without the slightest idea about why?? Some of the players received answers like "Dear player..... How are you today. We hope you have had a nice....bla bla bla.... We do not like your way of playing...... bur we love to see you try our RNG.....!!!??? I am now talking about known issues with all William Hills sisters - you can find many of these issues on different forums. As far as I know I have not made something outside the rules or something extraordinary. I have used no bot or anything unusual. Just laid my small 0,1$ and won a little with my strategy. If you are right - the whole thing is a mystery for me and many others. And we will probably never get the answer as long authorities allow the industry to sit a 100% on all cards and the players on almost none. But one thing is for shure. They spy on you, they measure you, they analyze you, they obviously do not like you to win. And it is not about the amount - it must be something else.... Anyway, I hope everybody with similar experincies report it on a forum and I still hope Casinomeister one day put WH on the black list. They once started as a criminal organisation and they shure does not seem to have forgotten how to manipulate players and authorities....

Maybe it might be of some significans so I would like to add: I started with a bankroll of 8$ and ended up on 114$ or something like that. Anyway that is about 14 times the original bankroll. Maybe this teased or disturbed them since I made a withdraw here of 100$ before starting a new game. Well, just guessing.....
 
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Forever01

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Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
Melbourne, AUSTRALIA
The last idea I would add is you mentioned you were playing with some of their money. Now, I know this is not a withdrawal issue, so I'm not suggesting anything about that. What I am saying is that the casinos only seem to have problems whenever their money is involved. It's highly likely that if you played entirely with your own cash (ie: you did not accept their free money gifts) then you would not be having these problems. I only ever play my own money, in any way shape or form, and I have never had any issues.

Overall it looks as though Wiiliam Hill and it's sister operations just seem slightly rogue, or at least inconsistent, which is enough for me to consider simply not gracing them with my custom full stop, and taking myself and my bankroll elsewhere.

I know you mentioned you play at BetVoyager. This is good. I have NEVER had an issue there, and their Rep Nicole here is fantastic. So I say drop WH, they don't deserve your custom, and enjoy ur winnings elsewhere.

As for your concerns about casinos disliking winners and system players, think again as these are the players that Casino's will pay and throw all sorts free accommodation, meals etc just to have them play at their casino. Casinos love system players and big winners. Don't buy into the myth.
 

nordanland

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Location
Sweden
What I am saying is that the casinos only seem to have problems whenever their money is involved.

You got a point for shure. What does not seem logical to me though is why they ban you from only the live roulette?? I had hardly put any bets there. It is all confusing. However, I will not play there anymore.
 

GrandMaster

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Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
The common thread in this is the "Roulette system". Clearly, Will Hill do not trust their live roulette games are being properly run, and that these systems DO in fact work on it over the long term, hence they ban all players who are identified as using one of these Roulette systems.
Or more likely, they don't have a clue and they don't understand that occasionally sometimes some players are lucky. When this happens, they panic.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
You got a point for shure. What does not seem logical to me though is why they ban you from only the live roulette?? I had hardly put any bets there. It is all confusing. However, I will not play there anymore.

This is the main thing that suggests it is about system play.

Online casinos will react to anything else that looks suspicious by banning the player completely. If they are happy for you to still play the software, it is nothing to do with bots, how you play bonuses, questions of ID or funding source, money laundering, etc.

The only difference between the software and the live casino is that they are in full control of the software, but have no real control over the independent studio that feeds them the live gaming stream. They see players get ahead over a long period of play, and see this as some kind of "system" being used to gain an advantage over the supposedly random nature of the game. With several players now "getting lucky", they seem to panic and ban players at the drop of a hat. Oddly, they are not spooked when the system has mostly caused a long term gain on the software, here they seem happy to put it down to an unusual run of luck, knowing that in the end they will get it back and more. It is only on the live game that they lose their nerve, and don't trust that the long term house edge will eventually beat the best systems and the luckiest of players.

If you have faith in this system, it will work on ANY roulette game, it doesn't have to be Will Hill or even Playtech. There must be many casinos happy to relieve you of the $100 you won before getting banned from the live tables.
 

marinela

Dormant Account
Joined
Jul 19, 2011
Location
Beograd bre
Prestige casino - same story

My boyfriend have acc on Prestige Casino, and last month have a some win on live roullete (about 500 $), after next deposit live game is unavaliable with same explanation.

WH (and sisters casino), dont love winners :)
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
My boyfriend have acc on Prestige Casino, and last month have a some win on live roullete (about 500 $), after next deposit live game is unavaliable with same explanation.

WH (and sisters casino), dont love winners :)

Well, the evidence is stacking up that Will Hill believes their live roulette can be beaten by players using a "Roulette system". They are not accepting that these players are merely lucky, and that their system has had nothing to do with their win. Surely, a player who starts off winning, thinking that their system is responsible, is going to carry on playing, only to give it all back and more as it dawns upon them that no Roulette system can work in the long term.

Instead, they seem intent on making such players walk off with what they have won, probably giving it back elsewhere whilst discovering that Roulette systems don't work.

If there was even a suspicion of cheating, fraud, or "bonus abuse", they would not merely block the live game, they would boot the player altogether, possibly voiding the winning session where they have evidence to support fraud or cheating.

This tells us something about the integrity of the live Roulette. The operator doesn't trust it gives a fair game for them, so why should we trust it to give US a fair game.
 

hakapuku

Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr
Joined
Aug 29, 2006
Location
UA
Albert Einstein once said: "The only way to beat roulette is to steal the money when the dealer is not looking." Probably William Hill managers found some other ways to do it.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Albert Einstein once said: "The only way to beat roulette is to steal the money when the dealer is not looking." Probably William Hill managers found some other ways to do it.

They believe that PLAYERS have found a way to outsmart their live roulette. If it works as advertised, this should be impossible, so we should not see any players banned ONLY from the live games, but allowed to use whatever systems they want on the software. If anything, I would expect carelessness to have exposed vulnerabilities in the software, such as the notorious "third party client" a rogue player was found to be using that allowed them to slip "illegal" bets direct to the server, bypassing client side checking.

Whatever this exploit is, at least some of the banned players know, the rest probably innocent "collateral damage" because Will Hill can't accurately target the "cheats".

The only obvious exploit is collusion with the studios, possible to suspect, but hard to prove. Maybe the bans are from analysis of statistics, and players who's win rate exceeds expectations by too great a margin get banned because it is assumed they are exploiting a bug, even though the bug cannot be traced. Some of these users seem overly agitated at the loss of live Roulette, which does suggest that they do have some kind of "angle", and it doesn't work on the software versions (else they would be glad that Will Hill haven't quite figured it out, and have afforded them the opportunity to have a crack at the software to make a little more before the ban hammer falls altogether).

If there IS an angle, why not keep quiet and shift to a non Will Hill casino with the same live games, and carry on as before. I can't see why anything should only work on Playtech either, whatever it is should work on any live game offering, as the implementation is much the same.
 

243 lines=daft

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Location
Scotland
I can't see why anything should only work on Playtech either, whatever it is should work on any live game offering, as the implementation is much the same.

If players are lowrolling (or perhaps working to a penny precision system), Playtech live casino allows very precise stake placement, e.g. you can bet one pound and thirty seven pence on a straight up (for example)

Most live dealer casinos do not do this and mostly allow minimum increments of 10p or 25p. In some casinos the minimum increment is 50p or higher.

Another possible factor is bonuses. Playtech live dealer casino is within the main casino and can be played with general bonuses, whereas for eg Ladbrokes or 32 Red the live dealer casino is separated and you can't use general bonuses
 

vinylweatherman

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Location
United Kingdom
If players are lowrolling (or perhaps working to a penny precision system), Playtech live casino allows very precise stake placement, e.g. you can bet one pound and thirty seven pence on a straight up (for example)

Most live dealer casinos do not do this and mostly allow minimum increments of 10p or 25p. In some casinos the minimum increment is 50p or higher.

Another possible factor is bonuses. Playtech live dealer casino is within the main casino and can be played with general bonuses, whereas for eg Ladbrokes or 32 Red the live dealer casino is separated and you can't use general bonuses

Neither would allow a player to beat the Roulette wheel. In the case of bonuses, it doesn't matter which Roulette is played, an angle is an angle, and would work to "abuse" the bonuses just as easily in the software Roulette. If bonuses were a problem, Playtech could change the software to match the rest, and even change the betting to the larger increments.

If (as I suspect) it is down to clever players calculating and then exploiting bias in the studio wheel, this does not make me confident that the Playtech live Roulette offers a fair game, as any bias could work against players who didn't know about it, and just bet their favourite numbers or spreads.

Bias is the only known method of beating a real world Roulette wheel, and casinos make sure their equipment is free from any bias. They run statistical analyses of past results, and if they see a wheel is showing bias, it gets replaced (or repeatedly moved around the casino to stop players from exploiting it long term).
 

243 lines=daft

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Jan 24, 2013
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Scotland
Neither would allow a player to beat the Roulette wheel.

I agree with you on that. But it's still possible that a well promoted system is the reason for this burst of frustrated effort to play at specific live dealer casinos, even if that system is essentially a snake oil.

If (as I suspect) it is down to clever players calculating and then exploiting bias in the studio wheel, this does not make me confident that the Playtech live Roulette offers a fair game, as any bias could work against players who didn't know about it, and just bet their favourite numbers or spreads.

Please excuse me if I'm being a bit dumb but I don't really understand what (or more specifically who) the source of the bias you are suggesting might be

Because Live Dealer Casino wheels are obviously more vulnerable to bias exploitation than regular casinos (as there is no eye in the sky or wily manager to spot true advantage players in action) one would assume they are as meticulously checked for bias if not more so.

Though I concede 'assumptions' are potentially dangerous, and obviously especially so in the desperate Wild West of online casino betting!
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
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Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
I agree with you on that. But it's still possible that a well promoted system is the reason for this burst of frustrated effort to play at specific live dealer casinos, even if that system is essentially a snake oil.


Please excuse me if I'm being a bit dumb but I don't really understand what (or more specifically who) the source of the bias you are suggesting might be

Because Live Dealer Casino wheels are obviously more vulnerable to bias exploitation than regular casinos (as there is no eye in the sky or wily manager to spot true advantage players in action) one would assume they are as meticulously checked for bias if not more so.

Though I concede 'assumptions' are potentially dangerous, and obviously especially so in the desperate Wild West of online casino betting!

The problem is that this "snake oil" has Will Hill running scared. Will Hill are acting as though they KNOW this "Roulette system" actually works, and are blocking significant numbers of players from ONLY the live games when they are suspected of being "in on it". This can also lead to players NOT using a system getting banned from live games because they have used a betting pattern that looks similar.

There are loads of "Roulette systems" around, and a few are being marketed quite aggressively via spam and ads on the dodgier affiliate websites. Any player daft enough to part with the required money to buy such a system is daft enough to use it thinking they are bound to recoup their outlay. Naturally, they get peeved when they are locked out by the casino when they have yet to make their money back on the purchase of the system, let alone make the promised long term profit.

Through their actions, Will Hill have given significant credibilty to this "snake oil", and I am sure the sellers of roulette systems will eventually start using the Will Hill bans as proof that their system works, and they will promote it's use at non Will Hill casinos.

The more widespread the industry bans, the more credibilty such a system gets. It will enable a fortune to be made by the seller before players realise that it either doesn't work, or all online casinos have banned it's use, making whether it works or not a redundant question.

I would like to know this "Will Hill system", but I am not going to pay good money for "snake oil" just so I can understand WHY it is bullshit.

Perhaps a banned player would be prepared to "spill the beans" on how they were playing the live roulette before they got the boot. These decisions are NOT being made by "CS drones" who often have little understanding of how things work, they are being made at management or security level, and by people who SHOULD know how things work, and should know that Roulette systems don't work, and are to be embraced as the long term outcome is more profit for the casino.
If their data suggests they DO work, then management should realise that they work because there is a serious flaw in the live game, rather than the system being mathematically sound.
 

Nifty29

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Jun 20, 2001
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Turn right, then right. then right again
I agree with you on that. But it's still possible that a well promoted system is the reason for this burst of frustrated effort to play at specific live dealer casinos, even if that system is essentially a snake oil.



Please excuse me if I'm being a bit dumb but I don't really understand what (or more specifically who) the source of the bias you are suggesting might be

Because Live Dealer Casino wheels are obviously more vulnerable to bias exploitation than regular casinos (as there is no eye in the sky or wily manager to spot true advantage players in action) one would assume they are as meticulously checked for bias if not more so.

Though I concede 'assumptions' are potentially dangerous, and obviously especially so in the desperate Wild West of online casino betting!

A guy was here a while back claiming he had been banned from some OCs live roulette because he had some kind of "method" where he bet just before "no more bets" was called. He claims he could predict within a small range what the number would be based on the roll and table etc.

Personally, I think it is a load of dogs droppings but he was convinced he was on a winner. Mind you, he was on here trying to convince people of his genius, presumably because he got sick of winning all the time and thought he might make a few extra bucks "training" players how to do it :rolleyes:

If I had a foolproof way to win, the last thing I'd be doing is telling everyone.

On the topic:

http://www.news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2013/03/15/08/27/crown-casino-hit-by-$32-million-scam
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
A guy was here a while back claiming he had been banned from some OCs live roulette because he had some kind of "method" where he bet just before "no more bets" was called. He claims he could predict within a small range what the number would be based on the roll and table etc.

Personally, I think it is a load of dogs droppings but he was convinced he was on a winner. Mind you, he was on here trying to convince people of his genius, presumably because he got sick of winning all the time and thought he might make a few extra bucks "training" players how to do it :rolleyes:

If I had a foolproof way to win, the last thing I'd be doing is telling everyone.

On the topic:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2013/03/15/08/27/crown-casino-hit-by-$32-million-scam

This would be "croupier bias", a problem caused by having the same croupier on for too long without a break. They can switch to "autopilot" because it is a repetitive task. The fault lies with the studio. Land casinos are aware of the problem and change croupiers regularly. The pit boss should also be keeping watch for any croupier who appears to have gone into this mode. Calling "no more bets" sooner can also significantly reduce this problem.

If this is what worries Will Hill, they have had well over a year to address this, the simplest way would be to call "no more bets" before the ball is released. They would no longer have to ban players and thus lend credibilty to Roulette systems.
 

marinela

Dormant Account
Joined
Jul 19, 2011
Location
Beograd bre
Prestige didnt tell anything about any sistem (mu boyfriend didnt use any sistem :), he just have a luck), they pay his winnings, and after that only locked live roulette for him. When he asked what happened, they give him same explanation like OP.

(apologise about my English :) )
 
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vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Prestige didnt tell anything about any sistem (mu boyfriend didnt use any sistem :), he just have a luck), they pay his winnings, and after that only locked live roulette for him. When he asked what happened, they give him same axplanation like OP.

(apologise about my English :) )

The excuse given to the OP is very bland, but one thing is sure, it is NOT "standard practice in the industry" to ban players from just ONE game based on it being live. "Standard practice" tends to be a bonus ban, right up to a full boot from the casino.

Their ban is very specific to online roulette, which suggests they are paranoid about something, but want to keep the players playing with the other games, so it can't be about fraud, money laundering, etc. This narrows it down to there being something exploitable in the live Roulette game, but hard to determine if a particular player is doing it, or is just getting lucky. This seems to have lead to a very broad set of criteria for banning players from the live tables, which includes players who have just played Roulette "normally", without the use of any system.

They can't explain too much as this either confirms to the non believer that there IS a system that can beat the house (not something they want any more widely known than it already is), or helps a system user figure out at what point the casino catches on.

On top of this, going on record as saying it is down to a WORKING "Roulette system" is going to be bad PR, starting with reports that the operator believes in "snake oil", and is thus unfit to run a casino.

Somebody somewhere KNOWS what "system" is scaring the sh1t out of Will Hill, so perhaps they can share it, or even just a link.
 
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