US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now

[dominique]

Ah, so you don't have any numbers for us?

 

[dc9999]

Dominique: You can try to pretend that it's "business as usual" in the online gambling universe - because we all know you make (or MADE) a good living as an online casino "shill" ...er..."affiliate"...

I will have DEFINITIVE numbers for you as of May 1 (through a Reuters source),,but to whet your appetite until that time....here's a blurb from Aaron Todd (from "Gambling Gurus"..)

The sudden lack of options for American gamblers is a huge sea change in just a week's time. While Poker Stars lists 17 deposit methods, only one (ePassporte) still accepts U.S. customers. Full Tilt has also pulled several deposit options, with Click2Pay, ePassporte and MoneyGram cash transfers being the only remaining options for Americans.

Spin it any way you'd like Dominique,,,,,things have changed DRASTICALLY for US players.....then again, you won't admit that because you need folks to think that all is well - they can still play at numerous sites - and they will still get paid on time and in full.

Apparently all of the victims who posted their horror stories here and elsewhere are exaggerating right?

And PUH-LEASE don't follow up with that crap that there are more reputable sites than rogues....

BTW...maybe you can provide me with NUMBERS indicating that it's still "business as usual" at most online sites as you contend....

In fact, I bet your monthly stipends from the sites you represent have dropped considerably......

 

[Stanford]

A Couple of things

It looks like the end to me as well. I agree with the poster that Casinomeister has done all he can. But....

Fortune Lounge is going down a path that would never have been tolerated in years past. And eCOGRA isn't doing anything about it. Yes, when Bushco is out we might have been able to pick up the pieces. But not if once solid casinos blatantly cheat players.

Many in the US want to carve out only poker and let the rest of the online gaming slide away. I would not be surprised if that isn't what happens. Why would I lobby for an industry that reneges on wagers?

If FL can walk away from Casinomeister, they can walk away from the players. And if casinos can walk away from the players...

Well there is the hope that eCOGRA will pull their seal - that would be something. Maybe I am too pessimistic.

Stanford

 

[dominique]

Dominique: You can try to pretend that it's "business as usual" in the online gambling universe - because we all know you make (or MADE) a good living as an online casino "shill" ...er..."affiliate"...

I will have DEFINITIVE numbers for you as of May 1 (through a Reuters source),,but to whet your appetite until that time....here's a blurb from Aaron Todd (from "Gambling Gurus"..)

The sudden lack of options for American gamblers is a huge sea change in just a week's time. While Poker Stars lists 17 deposit methods, only one (ePassporte) still accepts U.S. customers. Full Tilt has also pulled several deposit options, with Click2Pay, ePassporte and MoneyGram cash transfers being the only remaining options for Americans.

Spin it any way you'd like Dominique,,,,,things have changed DRASTICALLY for US players.....then again, you won't admit that because you need folks to think that all is well - they can still play at numerous sites - and they will still get paid on time and in full.

Apparently all of the victims who posted their horror stories here and elsewhere are exaggerating right?

And PUH-LEASE don't follow up with that crap that there are more reputable sites than rogues....

BTW...maybe you can provide me with NUMBERS indicating that it's still "business as usual" at most online sites as you contend....

In fact, I bet your monthly stipends from the sites you represent have dropped considerably......

You sure put a lot of things in my mouth that I never said, or even thought.


I just wanted to know where you got the statistics from you were quoting.

 

[lojo]

It looks like the end to me as well. I agree with the poster that Casinomeister has done all he can. But....

Fortune Lounge is going down a path that would never have been tolerated in years past. And eCOGRA isn't doing anything about it. Yes, when Bushco is out we might have been able to pick up the pieces. But not if once solid casinos blatantly cheat players.

Many in the US want to carve out only poker and let the rest of the online gaming slide away. I would not be surprised if that isn't what happens. Why would I lobby for an industry that reneges on wagers?

If FL can walk away from Casinomeister, they can walk away from the players. And if casinos can walk away from the players...

Well there is the hope that eCOGRA will pull their seal - that would be something. Maybe I am too pessimistic.

Stanford

Those are strong points, Stanford. Am I reading too much into it to think you might be saying that the economic situation created by the loss of so many US players hastened FL bean counters to say, 'f*ck it, we'd lose more money by paying them than we will ever gain back in goodwill in the longrun'? That can't be good business. It's yet to be seen which accounts will be settled. I understand yours and other's position though. I digress.

If the laws don't change, or the administrative pressure remains or increases -or isn't redefined by a new attorney general who explicitly states that sports betting per wire act is the only illegal gambling, then indeed, the future is not rosey.

Alternative financing is risky and sometimes shady - people may eventually begin to lose their moneys - casinos will no longer be willing to cover lost and stolen and otherwise seized funds, the jackbooted thugs may eventually begin arresting players. Doom and gloom. (personally I think that the doj simply doesn't know how and where money moves, and they want to- for good or evil- and that's why they are all up in it)

Now the bright side. Tenacious, creative people will always find a way, and the pendulam always swings. Crisis equals opportunity. Just let NLR list without restriction when I have a chunk of liquid change. If I take down a five figure win at a casino, I will ask for a piece of something. (show me a gambler who isn't a closet meglomaniac)

I read and understand the posts about our chances in the current political climate, but stranger things have happened. I am also not happy with the PPA's self interest, nor their choice of political clout ''Alfonse may be a crook, but he's our crook'. (old lobby quote)

As for solid operations reneging on wagers... this isn't a sitdown blackjack game, it's a pivotal point in the future of the industry. The game must go on!

Respect,

lojo

 

[Stanford]

Fortune Lounge is no Gaming Club

Those are strong points, Stanford. Am I reading too much into it to think you might be saying that the economic situation created by the loss of so many US players hastened FL bean counters to say, 'f*ck it, we'd lose more money by paying them than we will ever gain back in goodwill in the longrun'? That can't be good business. It's yet to be seen which accounts will be settled. I understand yours and other's position though.

...As for solid operations reneging on wagers... this isn't a sitdown blackjack game, it's a pivotal point in the future of the industry. The game must go on!

I think that. And I think they intend to offer more bonuses. But they just might not pay them. Yes, I think in today's climate they are saying that their goodwill and reputation are not worth much.

But look at the player reaction. At one time this would have been a huge deal. But now... not much. We had all hope eCOGRA would help - we had hoped...

By contrast compare a few short years back. It was only a 15% bonus. Gaminng Club was a top line MicroGaming franchise - but not of the status of Fortune Lounge. They gave out that 15% bonus to over 1600 players but refused the bonus to 29 players who deposited large amounts. What happened?

Players and player advocates went crazy. Bet2Gamble took them off his site. Players not only wanted to boycott Gaming Club - they wanted to boycott MicroGaming itself. I linked the WOL thread below and you can see many of those you recognize today. Look at the activity there as compared to now. Look at the intensity to protect players then - as opposed to now. And look at the result.

Gaming Club capitulated completely. Can you imagine Fortune Lounge posting something like this:

After an extensive review of the circumstances of this promotion, The Gaming Club (GC) hereby acknowledges that a number of substantial mistakes were made in connection with it.

In particular, the promotion (including its terms and conditions) was badly designed, and numerous players were offered the promotion when they should not have been. In addition, once the mistake was made, the manner in which it was responded to did not take into account all of the facts.

Notwithstanding that a number of the players who were excluded should not have received the offer in the first place, GC believes that it is incorrect to exclude players after they take up an offer that has been made to them unless such players blatantly breach the published terms and conditions.

GC therefore apologizes to all players for not acting in accordance with this belief, as well as for taking so long to realize and admit its error.

Steps have been taken to rectify the error by crediting all of the excluded accounts with the previously denied bonuses plus an apology bonus of 10% of the denied amount. All of the affected players have been emailed informing them of this and will also receive courtesy telephone calls from the casino.

Further, the shared industry database of promotion abusers used to exclude some of the players is not part of a fair and transparent process. GC believes that this should also be rectified.

Both of these issues, along with how GC will rectify them, are dealt with in more detail further below for those who are interested.

Finally, GC wishes to apologize to the affected players for the inconvenience and irritation that they have suffered in this process. It is entirely true to state that if GC has been foolish enough to offer an attractive but badly-designed promotion to players, then blame should not be placed upon the players when they seek to take advantage of it.

The inept way in which this promotion was handled has served only to damage the Gaming Clubs reputation, which Gaming Club deeply regrets.

That resolution didn't happen overnight. It was a portracted battle. During the middle of the thread, one person ask if the issue would just drift off without resolution. Spearmaster responded that in no way would that situation go unresolved. But today? ....

We have non payment for this reason or that reason all over the place. And Fortune Lounge blatantly stealing from players. And when push came to shove, where is eCOGRA? Are they doing the work that you see Jetset, Bet2Gamble,Fairplay and Spearmaster doing in the thread below? Casinomeister didn't waste anytme doing the right thing - but Casinomeister can't do it all by himself.

I would love to see the industry saved when Bushco leaves. But the industry has to be worth saving. Is it still?

Here is the Gaming Club thread - judge for yourself the difference:

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In any case, many thanks to our host for doing what he could. Not only in this case but in some many others back in the good old days.

Stanford.

 

[lojo]

Wow, thanks for the schoolin. I'm almost speechless.

Life as we knew it gambling online may well be over.

I'm still holding that small seed of hope.

 

[Da_Gambla]

Ok DC, I'm gonna try and bring non-polarized logic into this...

It's risky, but I'll try (hey, we're gamblers, right? )

First off, my bias: none.

I'm not an affiliate, couldn't care less which casinos die and which ones survive. I'm not a player with a payment held up, so I'm not in any such mindset that the casinos are all rogues or crooked. What I am able to do is to keep up on current events and make, what I hope are, sound logical conclusions. Let's begin...

This is an industry, a multi-billion dollar pie in its whole. Each country represents a slice of that pie, and up to now, each of those countries has LOST their cut in the way of commerce, interest and taxation. The US took the lead in declaring they want their piece of the pie. Ok, so they used different wording, but we all know damn well that's what it actually amounts up to. People are screaming that now governments such as Canada and Israel are working 'sympathetically' alongside the US to cripple casino transactions. Well why the hell not? They all have a vested interest in their share of the pie too, and allowing the US to be the 'bully' is certainly a path of least resistance. Government and financial officers may be corrupt as hell in any one's eyes, but they are FAR from stupid.

Now... when you remove the pie slices representing countries that are blocking their citizens, just look and you will see that there is STILL some pie left! That represents what the current casino industry has left to have free access to. In any business model, there is a marketshare that just 'exists' and requires very little marketing. The other marketshare has to be 'brought in' through whatever creative means exists. So the current casinos enjoy the marketshare that still exists, and are now forced to be creative in how they cater to 'difficult' countries. The point of this paragraph is to underscore that a marketshare STILL EXISTS, so therefore the current casinos are collectively still a VALID industry. They have a vested interest in still providing products and services. The pie is smaller, therefore they all cannot enjoy it. Some casinos will need to close, other casinos will gobble up the bits leftover, making themselves stronger within the available pie. This is business 101, and it models itself after nature (the weak die, the strong survive). I'll not participate in an argument over how much of the pie any particular country represents... seems silly. What is important is that there is ENOUGH pie left to validate the industry, although that industry will have to change shape to accomodate the new marketshare size.

Where you are right is that a New Order (your term) is being created. That has a rather nefarious tone to it, so I prefer to just label it as a business shift, which is all it really is... Where you are wrong, IMHO, is that ALL current casinos are rogues or crooks. You say the proof is in all the people here screaming about non-payments. Now I'm not going to pull a 'johnny' and go back through all the posts, but I shall trust my mind here.From what I have read here and on most other gambling related sites is, only a FEW PEOPLE are posting the same thing OVER and OVER again. One person's issue regarding one casino and one payment may get interjected into 8 different threads. It -sounds- like a huge riot, but in reality, it is not that large in preportion to the entire collective customer base. As I watch this unfold week after week, it appears TO ME (again, my opinion based on the data I am seeing) that the bulk of the nerfed transactions were from a period between February and March (a few as far back as January). Many people who have initiated cashouts in the last 2 weeks or so have been reporting payments received. I am clearly seeing something that was in complete imbalance a month ago being balanced back in the right direction. The posts are here... So it appears a few people got caught up in a period they would've preferred to avoid, but nonetheless they are in it, and man are they being vocal about it! (You people, know you have my sympathy and my prayers for a speedy resolution to your individual claims.)


Look DC, I have respect for your feelings and all, no problem there. When I read your original post, I thought you just simply were not up to date on reading new posts and made a rash call. Several people immediately tried to correct you, but you keep repeating the same thing over and over, which is, it's all gone to hell in a handbag and soon the crooks will be out of business. I don't see it that way, and there is plenty of evidence to suggest that:

A. The current industry is alive. They are not thriving, but they are alive.
B. The current industry has a vested interest in maintaining products and customer service, not only for the marketshare that they still have free access to, but also to convince the 'hostile' markets to trust them enough to continue doing business, or bring them new business. Those who suceed here will live on beyond the 'New Order'. There's some legitimate business models here; they are not all crooked.
C. The current industry is facing challenges to be creative in how they transact business in marketshares that are currently 'hostile'. That will remain over the next few months to possibly a year or more. Relied upon channels will dry up, cause confusion, and new ones will be built. The delays will ebb and flow during this period. If a customer does not accept this, the customer shouldn't be a customer, period. The customers should absolutely use these and similar forums to keep the pressure on the industry to create those new channels, when necessary, for transactions.

I'll go on record stating that I think all casinos and affiliates should definitely be up front and warn customers BEFORE taking their deposits. I believe they were convinced that they could smooth out the transactions process so quickly that this would be unnecessary. They were wrong, it's been ongoing too long, has no stability in sight, so they should issue the warnings.

My .02's -
well, maybe a nickel... = )

Good day,
- Keith

 

[Simmo!]

Fact of the matter is the landscape has changed, but the nature of gambling will always remain a contentious one whichever way you look at it. The industry has always had it's down moments and always will, regulated or otherwise. It's a business with a high $ turnover so if there is one thing you can guarantee it's that it will always attract "innovation", which may or may not be a good thing.

It's not "all" over, but it's a far tougher landscape for those across the pond, no doubt. But the thread title also says "...for now" and I believe that's an accurate statement in so much as it recognises that the industry is ever-changing.

The legislation has opened the way for rogues to take advantage of diminishing legit options for US players and potentially set the industry back in the process, but that too will change eventually. My view is that "online gambling" is still a very young industry and we can expect to see ups and downs for many, many years yet.

Sometimes you need to take 1 step back to take 2 steps forward and, while right now it's hard to see how, this legislation/situation may actually prove to be a benefit to the industry in time.

 

[tim5ny]

Check out this link and then you may understand why the author of this thread is in a negative mode about online gambling!

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[dc9999]

First off, having personally been involved in some extremely negative experiences with online gambling (as Tim5ny points out above) I understand how one could come to the conclusion that my opinions are based solely on a need to vent.

While there may be some deep rooted psychological need of mine to exact a degree of "revenge" on the RTG's and Warren Clouds of the online gaming universe, I also think it's important to note, that prior to last year, I had very few negative experiences with online casino sites - and in fact - felt several of them were quite stellar.

The reason I started this thread though, is not Crystal Palace influenced - at least not to the degree some might think it is. I just felt that there were MAJOR changes afoot relative to this industry, and I looked on (from afar admittedly) with a combination of pity and horror, at how many previously "above board" sites suddenly had payment troubles.

The fact is this industry is and never was REGULATED by any LEGITIMATE licensing board or authority (sorry folks, eCogra is as much of a sham as Kahniwake or SafeBet....) So when things go south in a dramatic fashion - due of course in this instance to some aggressive action by the US AG - the online casinos really don't have to worry about any penalties or sanctions imposed on them by any LEGITIMATE third party..

That stated, I was very much impressed by the thoughtful and eloquent responses submitted by Stanford, Simmo!, Da_Gambla, and lojo.

It certainly does prove the point that many gambling enthusiasts are very intelligent and well spoken/written individuals.

Thanks again for fleshing out some very good points regarding this issue!

 

[tim5ny]

I'm not disputing that things are bad now for the American player. See my Stalling tactics theory thread in the Online Casinos section. However, I am pointing to the fact that there could be some personal vendetta behind your motives. I would be vengeful too if I were in your shoes.. but given the information in your story I think your bride may not have helped your cause either.

 

[Da_Gambla]

Check out this link and then you may understand why the author of this thread is in a negative mode about online gambling!

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Thanks Tim -

I did start to feel that the things being said were in fact being repeated over and over, which usually dictates an emotional situation. That's why I prefaced my last post with the fact that I don't have much of a bias either way.

DC, I read the thread provided by Tim in its entirety. Although you have stated that this thread is not motivated, I'm not convinced, and you know that if you were in our shoes, you might not be 100% convinced either...

Regardless, I stand by my statement that you are entitled to your feelings, as they are valid to you and your outlook or situation. I notice your case is still unresolved, and for that, I wish you well going forward with it. If it matters, I do think you deserve the winnings. I also agree with Tim that the wife added an unnecessary layer of difficulty for you, and I do think you have an issue with her along with the casino. The people being paid haven't provided any casino with a valid reason to hold an account hostage, and unfortunately it appears the wife did so in your case. Doesn't make it right, but bottom-line is, if that layer didn't exist, you'd probably have your money by now, right? My approach is always preemptive; why give someone ammunition they don't need? Like you need a lecture... my apologies... My best to you going forward!

- Keith

 

[lojo]

Check out this link and then you may understand why the author of this thread is in a negative mode about online gambling!

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No one could blame him for being pissed off. It makes my blood boil and I'm not out a cent.

 

[lojo]

Seeing 49er Casino shut out US players (lets hope that's all it is) is bittersweet. On one hand I applaud them for not accepting wagers from people they can't pay... on the other I can see where news like this would bolster an argument that the industry is dying completely for US players.

If they are indeed closing shop it is a terrible thing, they are a good casino. Less than honorable casinos are staying open.

IMO, the industry, in toto, will not disappear completely from the American market or completely sell out to the big boys onland. It's too big and too lucrative.

Every day seems to bring new developments.

Good luck DC

 

[dominique]

They are shutting down. They are unable to process payments.

 

[recruit]

Shutting down with allot of players money!

They are shutting down. They are unable to process payments.

Shutting down after months of continuing to take US deposits full well knowing they had no way to pay out winners....it's about time they shut it down.

 

[dominique]

Shutting down after months of continuing to take US deposits full well knowing they had no way to pay out winners....it's about time they shut it down.

As far as I know they ARE paying everyone. They are shutting down because they don't think they will be able to do so in the long run.

Where did you hear they weren't paying? I must have missed something.

 

[recruit]

49'er casino

As far as I know they ARE paying everyone. They are shutting down because they don't think they will be able to do so in the long run.

Where did you hear they weren't paying? I must have missed something.

A few months ago, I deposited 3-400 and managed to win about 850...they promptly sent me an email the following day saying they had credited my account with a bonus, and "oh, by the way we currently have no way to pay US players, but we're working on it....."

I emailed them back, asking why this wasn't being displayed in big bold letters on the cashier page so that players could make the call as to whether they wanted to continue to "donate" to the casino, knowing they could not collect on any winnings. I further requested refunds of the monies I had deposited in the past two weeks, as I would NOT have done so had I known I would not be paid. I was promised the casino "manager" would respond to me within 48 hours....no one ever did, despite numerous emails to them. They just kept the fact that they had no way to pay winners their own little secret until somebody won - and only THEN shared that secret.

 

[dominique]

So you never got paid?

There should have been an open opportunity at some point if it was months ago.

 

[recruit]

So you never got paid?

There should have been an open opportunity at some point if it was months ago.

Once they told me (on several occasions) that there was no way TO pay me, I just played out the $850 I had won (and tried to cash out, before being told there was no way to collect) for the hell of it...figured if they weren't going to pay me, and I couldn't get management to respond after sending no less than about 12 emails, I was kinda pointless. I probably should've gotten Bryan involved, or I guess I could have sent 50 MORE emails, but it wasn't that much money and i really didn't think it would change anything. For the record, I posted about it here when it happened and offered MHO that this should have gotten them rouge status.