Untamed series

[Tirilej]

It only have to happen once.



MG must be pretty dumb to not allow people to bet higher when they get plenty of wilds in the bank then. They would make a lot of money.

We can agree to disagree...again
Just don't try to make me look stupid for having another opinion on it please.

 

[Balthazar]

We can agree to disagree...again
Just don't try to make me look stupid for having another opinion on it please.

You shouldn't take anything personally during debates Tirilej. I apologize for my tone if it was not appropriate.

Note to everyone here: English isn't my first language (I live in the "French-only" part of the country) and my vocabulary is somewhat limited. Sometimes my choice of words isn't the best and I can come across as aggressive or arrogant even if the intent isn't there.

 

[dunover]

But that's the same on ANY slot where you have to collect things for a bonus.
For example, other MG slots: Scrooge, Tomb Raider 2, Wealth Spa, etc.
On Net Entertainment: Devils Delight, Robin Hood & Relic Raiders.
3Dice: Ching-Ching & Kyoto's Quest.
I'm sure there are more I can't think of right now...

You must remember though, that theoretical long-term RTP is calculated over an infinite number of spins, not just a handful.Yes it's true that you DO get lower RTP on these games when you first start playing them. I think this must be fairly obvious to all players (if they study the pay-table before they start) and so they can make an informed choice on whether they want to play the slot or not.

It can still be random, even if they don't work the way YOU want them to work.

KK

Yes, and this line says a great deal. If, by bad fortune for casinos (good for us) the aggregate RTP for a slot was proving excessively generous, there has to be compensatory algorithm in place. Secondly, how can a casino give an RTP on a brand new game which hasn't done a huge amount of spins? It would have been tested, possibly as a clone on another similar program platform already in place for another existing slot. IF a casino can give an RTP for a slot, it has to be either a theoretical one (based on the program) as you state, or a PROVEN one by using data gleaned from previous play, and ongoing therefore I think this is the 'infinite' you mention as it is open-ended. The RTP is fluid in this case. If the actual and theoretical RTP's (over many slots) are extremely close and the slots have been around for a while, it would make most people believe in the compensation theory. Simply because statistically (assuming total randomness) one or two slots would likely have paid a large series of wins and be well over and some well under. This seems seldom the case though.

Another mystery (it has happened to me several times on more than one software) is why, after playing say 30p minimum stake for hundreds of spins, getting bored and treading water that I suddenly whack the stake up to say 3.00 to rid myself of my last 18 quid, and I hit a big win. Happens often on MG. I know I'm not alone, as many winners of the big screenshots often add 'I was playing x and raised my stake to xx, when this beauty rolled in'. Not proof total of compensation, but almost seems like a form of 'forcing' which we know can be done on pub and arcade slots but shouldn't happen on totally 'random' slots. Funny old game.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Yes, and this line says a great deal. If, by bad fortune for casinos (good for us) the aggregate RTP for a slot was proving excessively generous, there has to be compensatory algorithm in place. Secondly, how can a casino give an RTP on a brand new game which hasn't done a huge amount of spins? It would have been tested, possibly as a clone on another similar program platform already in place for another existing slot. IF a casino can give an RTP for a slot, it has to be either a theoretical one (based on the program) as you state, or a PROVEN one by using data gleaned from previous play, and ongoing therefore I think this is the 'infinite' you mention as it is open-ended. The RTP is fluid in this case. If the actual and theoretical RTP's (over many slots) are extremely close and the slots have been around for a while, it would make most people believe in the compensation theory. Simply because statistically (assuming total randomness) one or two slots would likely have paid a large series of wins and be well over and some well under. This seems seldom the case though.

Another mystery (it has happened to me several times on more than one software) is why, after playing say 30p minimum stake for hundreds of spins, getting bored and treading water that I suddenly whack the stake up to say 3.00 to rid myself of my last 18 quid, and I hit a big win. Happens often on MG. I know I'm not alone, as many winners of the big screenshots often add 'I was playing x and raised my stake to xx, when this beauty rolled in'. Not proof total of compensation, but almost seems like a form of 'forcing' which we know can be done on pub and arcade slots but shouldn't happen on totally 'random' slots. Funny old game.

Couple of points here:

1) T-RTP can be calculated perfectly for a slot without one single spin ever having been made on it. Yes any software provider worth their salt would chuck a few million spins through it in test mode before going live, but only to check they hadn't left any bugs or suchlike in there.

2) I still think you're lumping MG slots (where I basically agree with you on the pseudo-random/compensated theory) in with all other slots. MG slots are a unique proposition IMO in terms of how they make RTP.

 

[KasinoKing]

Secondly, how can a casino give an RTP on a brand new game which hasn't done a huge amount of spins? It would have been tested, possibly as a clone on another similar program platform already in place for another existing slot.

The figures given by the casinos are T-RTPs = Theoretical Return To Player, not the actual RTP from anyone playing the slots.
Do you really think slot designers make a slot without having any idea what the RTP is until they spin it a few million times?

If you believe that most (NOT ALL) slots are genuinely random, then the designers can work out the theoretical RTP just from the reel-layout and the paytable by using a program to calculate the return for every single possible combination compared to the cost of how ever many spins that is (usually 10,000,000+ different combinations).

And if you believe the slot is non-random (as in an AWP or "compensated" slot), then the RTP is a figure entered into the software and the results of the spins are controlled to ensure this RTP is achieved long-term.

In either case they don't have to spin the slot for real even once!

KK

 

[Balthazar]

T-RTP can be calculated perfectly for a slot without one single spin ever having been made on it.

The RTP's aren't even calculated, they are set and can be changed. If they were calculated, all the casinos offering the same slots (both land based and online) would give the exact same RTP, which isn't the case.

 

[dunover]

The figures given by the casinos are T-RTPs = Theoretical Return To Player, not the actual RTP from anyone playing the slots.
Do you really think slot designers make a slot without having any idea what the RTP is until they spin it a few million times?

If you believe that most (NOT ALL) slots are genuinely random, then the designers can work out the theoretical RTP just from the reel-layout and the paytable by using a program to calculate the return for every single possible combination compared to the cost of how ever many spins that is (usually 10,000,000+ different combinations).

And if you believe the slot is non-random (as in an AWP or "compensated" slot), then the RTP is a figure entered into the software and the results of the spins are controlled to ensure this RTP is achieved long-term.

In either case they don't have to spin the slot for real even once!

KK

I concede I indeed have done too much MG play and it has clouded my vision possibly..


Do you really think slot designers make a slot without having any idea what the RTP is until they spin it a few million times?

Not at all, I did mention THEORETICAL RTP if you check, although out of context sorry about that one....and yes, a program is fixed so it's unnecessary (usually) to run it as it can only perform, glitches aside, to its parameters. I think the core program is similar for most slots, with code changed in certain places if you have different amounts of freespins between slots, or multipliers. TSII and IR I believe are an example, where tweaks were made to the TSII code via inserting some bigger wins, reducing the frequency of others (leaving the RTP similar but changing the variance) and chucking some new graphics videos in to attach to the rng outcomes and removing obviously the TSII graphics. The online equivalent of a cloned pub fruit machine.

What I will insist though (no, I'm not a pro programmer but I know enough to see this) is that it is completely unnecessary to have 5 rng's 1 for each reel and work the possibilities and outcomes/weights out like that to make an RTP/slot as desired. (Like the revered Wizard of Slots theorizes on his site.)
The exact same result can be achieved (as I'm 99% sure they are at MG) by simply selecting 1 rn and attaching a videographic to that value from a computed library of reel possibilities for that specific win. I will confidently say that MG use pseudo reels and I think it likely that the others do too.

PS. The MG 'feature' (f-up) of mousing over your balance on downloaded MG casinos to see the outcome of the spin before the reels have even stopped appears to have been addressed, since I started harping on about it a few months back. They have obviously been made aware of it, and out of embarrassment have edited it out. Their bad IMO. All it did was by-pass the need for reels and show the slots and programs for exactly what they are - electronic ball-pickers that select a value while a B-S video follows for your 'entertainment' lol..........