Ukraine Mess

Kroffe

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The vogue cover zelensky was on with his wife was just atrocious
I know its about getting/keeping people aware of the war, but 'normal' media seems like a better option than fashion magazines.
Like i said it feels bizarre at times.

I dont know how the media looks in other countries, but here the papers have been hinting at nuclear war pretty much since day 1, its hard not to get desensitized when every day theres a new article about how 'now its super close to nuclear war'.
You get a sense of constant escalation from all sides when reading the news, personally i dont think theres a big risk of nuclear war breaking out because nobody has anything to gain from it.
And even if it does happen its not like me worrying about it would change anything.
 

justdoit

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Let's not forget France, Germany, Spain etc. Think I heard a mention of Sweden and Finland supplies. There are shareholders around the world to impress.

I forget the article or news clip I saw, but it listed billions from multiple countries.
Germany should do more they Rich, and dont forget elon musk he paid $80m for their Internet
 

slot_zombie

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One has to wonder though why zelensky is asking for billions none stop and we are sending it without hesitation. Charity starts at home. We are all feeling the pinch and I have a bad taste when tax payer money is being sent over there. Neither side is interested in peace might I add. Something about zelensky rubs me the wrong way I can't shake the feeling
Don't worry, when it's all finally over, the good old British Taxpayer will be paying out for years to rebuild the country, too. Maybe we'll get a thankyou card?
 

bamberfishcake

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he was busy fire his gun
Wouldn't you if you were put in the middle of a war in a trench? :)

Can't imagine what it must be like to be pushed into kill-or-be-killed situations like that. Hopefully, none of us is ever forced to be in such a scary situation. I sympathise with both sides. Forget who is to blame, the ones who should be blamed are not embroiled in the real horrors and watch from a safe distance.

Hope the conflict ends soon.

There is an opportunity for a cease-fire I hear, now that Russia has annexed what they came for. Its Crimea all over again though, which is apparently viewed by the West as part of Ukraine, although it has been annexed by Russia since 2014. When will Putin be stopped from grabbing land by force? I don't like the West's stance though. It is one of condemning the actions but not taking action and just making money from supplying Ukraine.

As the thread name suggests, it's a mess.
 

mack341

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Let's say by a military miracle Ukraine regain the eastern areas, who is going to move to live in those areas, people who oppose russian culture/language? Will the govt spend billions modernising these areas, building up industry etc...when it is so close to russia and at risk from future conflict.

If the war carries on it will escalate, as it has been recently, the west could directly get involved but then you're looking at a (potential) nuclear weapons scenario as the outcome. You can't half heartedly deploy western fighter planes to take on russian aircraft, you've got to have airfields operating in the west, and probably launch attacks on similar installations in russia.

The rights and wrongs of the original invasion and what's gone on in it won't mean a thing.

Looking at the map I think Putin will also want a future agreement all the white area from Kharkiv to the the Dnipro river [if he doesn't successfully invade it] is demilitarised under ukrainian control, he is not going to want a large, highly trained and advanced armed force, hostile to russia, on his border. That's basic geopolitics/strategy. It's do or die now or some sort of peace deal.


1666282427204.png
 

wyder33

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Let's say by a military miracle Ukraine regain the eastern areas, who is going to move to live in those areas, people who oppose russian culture/language? Will the govt spend billions modernising these areas, building up industry etc...when it is so close to russia and at risk from future conflict.

If the war carries on it will escalate, as it has been recently, the west could directly get involved but then you're looking at a (potential) nuclear weapons scenario as the outcome. You can't half heartedly deploy western fighter planes to take on russian aircraft, you've got to have airfields operating in the west, and probably launch attacks on similar installations in russia.

The rights and wrongs of the original invasion and what's gone on in it won't mean a thing.

Looking at the map I think Putin will also want a future agreement all the white area from Kharkiv to the the Dnipro river [if he doesn't successfully invade it] is demilitarised under ukrainian control, he is not going to want a large, highly trained and advanced armed force, hostile to russia, on his border. That's basic geopolitics/strategy. It's do or die now or some sort of peace deal.


View attachment 174442
Following your reasoning, I have to disagree with that. Ukraine must fight for its territories because these are its territories, no matter to what extent the lands that belong to Ukraine are still damaged. You claim that it will be necessary to spend billions on rebuilding these areas and nobody will want to live there because it is too close to the border. I have not read more nonsense, because it follows that Putin can cut Ukraine piece by piece, destroy the infrastructure of the areas taken over, and the Ukrainians should not fight for these lands because they are destroyed. Think about what you wrote because it is illogical. The second issue is that Ukraine will be bordering Russia all the time and people will live near the border. And the fundamental question, what are the Ukrainians to fight for, then, if not for their own homeland, its sovereignty and the preservation of their country's borders?
 

justdoit

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Wouldn't you if you were put in the middle of a war in a trench? :)

Can't imagine what it must be like to be pushed into kill-or-be-killed situations like that. Hopefully, none of us is ever forced to be in such a scary situation. I sympathise with both sides. Forget who is to blame, the ones who should be blamed are not embroiled in the real horrors and watch from a safe distance.

Hope the conflict ends soon.

There is an opportunity for a cease-fire I hear, now that Russia has annexed what they came for. Its Crimea all over again though, which is apparently viewed by the West as part of Ukraine, although it has been annexed by Russia since 2014. When will Putin be stopped from grabbing land by force? I don't like the West's stance though. It is one of condemning the actions but not taking action and just making money from supplying Ukraine.

As the thread name suggests, it's a mess.
I was in 90s u get flash back when u sleeping for rest of u life, war is bad for anyone...Ukraine should not end it to they get their land back
p.s. on that video his friend next to him he will be fk up all his life, watching his friend get killed in front of him
 
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bamberfishcake

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I was in 90s u get flash back when u sleeping for rest of u life, war is bad for anyone...Ukraine should not end it to they get their land back
p.s. on that video his friend next to him he will be fk up all his life, watching his friend get killed in front of him

Oh wow, sorry to hear that. I will always remember my Grandad saying he did not like the D-Day celebrations because it was a yearly reminder of a WWII experience he will never forget.

He didn't talk much about the war and what he saw.

I also worked with a chap who was an amazingly upbeat guy but had been stationed in N.Ireland with the British Army and had clear emotional scars that would show themselves once in a while. He watched his friend get killed by a car bomb.

At school, and as a kid, there is always a lack of fear and an abundance of bravado with many boys when talking about war and fighting, but the reality, from what I can tell, is much different for most.
 

sufferinsilence

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Following your reasoning, I have to disagree with that. Ukraine must fight for its territories because these are its territories, no matter to what extent the lands that belong to Ukraine are still damaged. You claim that it will be necessary to spend billions on rebuilding these areas and nobody will want to live there because it is too close to the border. I have not read more nonsense, because it follows that Putin can cut Ukraine piece by piece, destroy the infrastructure of the areas taken over, and the Ukrainians should not fight for these lands because they are destroyed. Think about what you wrote because it is illogical. The second issue is that Ukraine will be bordering Russia all the time and people will live near the border. And the fundamental question, what are the Ukrainians to fight for, then, if not for their own homeland, its sovereignty and the preservation of their country's borders?

And the precedent it would set is dangerous: you'd basically indicate Putin can invade any other country in the region which was a part of the USSR and do exactly the same he has been doing in Ukraine since 2014...
 

mack341

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Following your reasoning, I have to disagree with that. Ukraine must fight for its territories because these are its territories, no matter to what extent the lands that belong to Ukraine are still damaged. You claim that it will be necessary to spend billions on rebuilding these areas and nobody will want to live there because it is too close to the border. I have not read more nonsense, because it follows that Putin can cut Ukraine piece by piece, destroy the infrastructure of the areas taken over, and the Ukrainians should not fight for these lands because they are destroyed. Think about what you wrote because it is illogical. The second issue is that Ukraine will be bordering Russia all the time and people will live near the border. And the fundamental question, what are the Ukrainians to fight for, then, if not for their own homeland, its sovereignty and the preservation of their country's borders?

We're not talking about a normal situation where a country fights off an invading force, this is far more complex geopolitically, 17% of Ukraine's population identified as ethnic russians in the 2001 census, roughly 8 million, plus religous and language ties.

[Edit: Were ukraine to join Nato, who have determined their principal enemy/adversary is Russia, and then put in place advance missile systems etc.. there is a clear issue and internal contradictions.]

It will be necessary to spend billions on infrastructure and industry in the East. I think the ethnic russians will want to carry on living in the east, but not governed by people who think of them as 2nd class or worse orcs.

Somebody currently living in Kiev or Lviv, a loyalist to zelensky won't want to move there, surely?

In the UK we've had to cede a certain amount of autonomy to wales and scotland, a degree of self government, the minsk agreement was probably the best way to achieve something similar and avoid this war.

Unless Putin is toppled or retires I cannot see the story arc of Ukraine recovering all this territory and then peace is achieved.
 
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sufferinsilence

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We're not talking about a normal situation where a country fights off an invading force, this is far more complex geopolitically, 17% of Ukraine's population identified as ethnic russians in the 2001 census, roughly 8 million, plus religous and language ties.

[Edit: Were ukraine to join Nato, who have determined their principal enemy/adversary is Russia, and then put in place advance missile systems etc.. there is a clear issue and internal contradictions.]

It will be necessary to spend billions on infrastructure and industry in the East. I think the ethnic russians will want to carry on living in the east, but not governed by people who think of them as 2nd class or worse orcs.

Somebody currently living in Kiev or Lviv, a loyalist to zelensky won't want to move there, surely?

In the UK we've had to cede a certain amount of autonomy to wales and scotland, a degree of self government, the minsk agreement was probably the best way to achieve something similar and avoid this war.

Unless Putin is toppled or retires I cannot see the story arc of Ukraine recovering all this territory and then peace is achieved.

But Ukraine isn't part of Russia, is it? The (illegally) annexed areas aren't either. If anyone is going to give them a certain degree of self government it's Kyiv and not the Kremlin... And don't forget that Crimea was an autonomous republic already before the Russians occupied it in 2014.
 

mack341

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But Ukraine isn't part of Russia, is it? The (illegally) annexed areas aren't either. If anyone is going to give them a certain degree of self government it's Kyiv and not the Kremlin... And don't forget that Crimea was an autonomous republic already before the Russians occupied it in 2014.

"Sebastopol, is the largest city in Crimea and a major port on the Black Sea. Due to its strategic location and the navigability of the city's harbours, Sevastopol has been an important port and naval base throughout its history. Since the city's founding in 1783 it has been a major base for Russia's Black Sea Fleet"

A 2012 law, called the law "On the principles of the State language policy" gave the status of regional language to Russian and other minority languages. It allowed the use of minority languages in courts, schools and other government institutions in areas of Ukraine where the national minorities exceed 10% of the population.[3][4] The law was used mostly in Ukraine's southern and eastern regions, where predominant or significant parts of the population speak Russian as their first language.

Immediately after the 2014 Ukrainian revolution, on 23 February 2014, the Ukrainian Parliament voted to repeal the law.

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The Russians were never going to risk losing Sevastapol, and the coup in 2014 meant the two countries' govts were no longer on friendly terms.

What would happen in Belgium, ultimately, if one language was pushed above the others as the official one? [I didn't even realise you have a 1% german speaking area until looking it up just now].
 

sufferinsilence

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What would happen in Belgium, ultimately, if one language was pushed above the others as the official one? [I didn't even realise you have a 1% german speaking area until looking it up just now].

Yeah, so I don't really know how to answer that one :laugh: I think you need to go through the history of Belgium and find out for yourself what happened 🤷‍♂️
 

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