UK Conservative Party Leadership Election

[ChopleyIOM]

I was just about to say the same. Bliss has arrived. Football highlights with no punditry, just the games. No heat maps, pointless stats, debates about whether a penalty was a penalty - as Clough used to say, "It WAS as penalty because the ref said it was.." No padding it out with pointless inquiries about every decision. True socialism and equality has arrived at MoTD....

No smarmy wannabe Lenin earning a nurse's annual salary for each one day of work a week to make 1 hour or so of late night TV.

 

[mack341]

Crikey I know the Doolally Mail is the toilet paper Boris Johnson fanzine but this is fucking embarrassing regardless.

I actually watched Johnson at the hearing yesterday and he was terrible, clearly losing his temper on several occasions and delivering meandering waffley answers that had his actual lawyer rolling his eyes and pulling multiple bemused faces.

But nope, according to the Mail - AGILE AS A CAT!

View attachment 181002

I think the QC is perhaps reacting to the questioners, Sarah Vine is gove's ex wife and probably a boris friend so hardly an independent opinion, however to go as far as she has indicates to me that the committee MPs didn't lay many big blows, but if it goes to some sort of vote that won't matter, he'll be done for I expect.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I think the QC is perhaps reacting to the questioners, Sarah Vine is gove's ex wife and probably a boris friend so hardly an independent opinion, however to go as far as she has indicates to me that the committee MPs didn't lay many big blows, but if it goes to some sort of vote that won't matter, he'll be done for I expect.

Believe me mack, I watched the whole thing, Johnson was awful and the MPs skewered him, it was a Tory dominated panel and the guy who did the most damage was a mild-mannered, softly spoken Tory MP called Alberto Costa.

You can see Pannick (Johnson's £5000 per hour lawyer, paid for by the taxpayer), visibly reacting to Johnson's answers with bemusement, incredulity and despair, he's not reacting to the questions, he's reacting to what Johnson is saying, you can literally see it in the footage, it's not a question of interpretation.

Johnson's defence, such as it was, basically came down to he's incredibly stupid, ignorant, and completely oblivious to everything that's going on around him and he didn't even remotely make a link between what he was telling the population of the UK not to do every day (on pain of arrest and some massive fines!), and what was going on, and he was participating in, in Downing Street.

It was truly shameful and to think this man was ever the Prime Minister of the UK is diabolical.

 

[mack341]

I'll have to watch it, if the lawyer was reacting and pulling faces to what Boris [his client] was saying that is deeply unprofessional. I think you summed up his defence well though!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

More wokies! Lefty lawyers! Virtue signallers!

Most important thing going on in the world at the moment, according to the Doolally Mail.

This whole 'woke' thing is quite odd really, because it's used as a pejorative, but those of us who are WOKE, such as myself, wear the label quite happily, and run on the basis that if the Daily Mail is calling something WOKE, that thing is probably correct and something I'm in favour of.

I mean, there is actually a definition of woke, and it's not exactly insulting.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Some greedy Tory MPs (remember, the job they're already paid the better part of ninety grand per year for) caught in a sting operation by a fake Korean company pretending to be interested in their expertise. Kwarteng and Hancock nonchalantly suggesting that £10,000 PER DAY would be about right for their services.

The overwhelming majority of MPs who find time to do other jobs beyond being an actual bloody MP are Tories, so the people running the sting adjusted their numbers in terms of which MPs they approached. (Some Labour and Lib Dem MPs were approached as well.)

 

[cncas2123]

So what’s the problem ? They told them what the rate of pay was for a consultancy, they made it clear it would be a few days a year and not a full time job.
I hardly see a crime in trying to get the maximum possible for your services and it’s not exactly double jobbing.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So what’s the problem ? They told them what the rate of pay was for a consultancy, they made it clear it would be a few days a year and not a full time job.
I hardly see a crime in trying to get the maximum possible for your services and it’s not exactly double jobbing.

Of course it's double-jobbing. These are people who are already paid a salary of £84K to be an MP, on top of that they get incredibly generous expenses for all sorts of things (stuff the rest of us mere mortals have to pay for out of our basic wages), and also receive multiple subsidies on top of that. (The Commons restaurant, bar and cafe for example are all hugely subsidised (by Johnny Taxpayer), to the extent that an MP can get a top class restaurant meal for less than we can get get a Maccy D's for.)

Against that backdrop, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect our MPs, of any political party - (because some MPs from other parties are up to this as well, although it's mostly Tories) - to dedicate their working lives during their time in office to the job of actually being a constituency MP.

I'm sure we've all seen footage of the Commons being practically empty during some debates, so keen are many MPs to get involved with the process of scrutinising what is going on in the seat of the UK's democracy..... That's bad enough in itself, that some of them are trying to jaunt off to collect £10K per day moonlighting for some bullshit fake Korean PR firm with a sham website is taking the piss.

Each MP represents a constituency made up of tens of thousands of people, are we saying they really have nothing more pressing to do than try to get their grubby mitts on tens if not hundreds of thousands pounds extra, working 'jobs' that have nothing whatsoever to do with their actual job of being an MP?

Also remember that many MPs have multiple outside interests, and will grab anything they can, so we're not just talking a few days per year, at what point do you think it starts to be a problem? 20 days per year? 30? 50?

This isn't a partisan issue, it's the basic question of what we expect our elected representatives to do, for the very generous remuneration and other substantial benefits they are given - remember, if you're a UK taxpayer, you're paying for them!

Maybe the UK would have ended up with a much better Brexit deal if more MPs had been focused on understanding the implications of Johnson's crapfest 'oven ready deal', instead of greedily snuffling around for the next trough to dip their snouts into.

 

[cncas2123]

I have to disagree, they were offering consultancy for a few days a year and asking for recompense to do it , something we would all do in that position and anyone who says they wouldn’t is being economical with the truth.

 

[mack341]

I think the original logic around second jobs was sensible, you wouldn't want to exclude the most capable or intelligent people, who may have other careers, from taking an MP's role. Which shouldn't actually be that complicated, mostly studying new proposed laws and having debates. A gifted person could do that on top of other outside work.

But MP's only getting secondary work because they're an MP is a potential ethical problem.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I have to disagree, they were offering consultancy for a few days a year and asking for recompense to do it , something we would all do in that position and anyone who says they wouldn’t is being economical with the truth.

I'm always rather suspicious of any argument that's based on the assertion that 'everyone' would do the same thing (which is clearly a bit daft), especially when used to justify a morally questionable action.

For starters, the majority of MPs who were approached (including the Tories) replied with 'Nope, not interested' (all of the Labour MPs did this), it was only a minority of Tory MPs who replied to the sting and said they were keen to snaffle some more cash. So your 'something we would all do' claim falls down at the very first hurdle, without even needing to be subject to the further 'everyone' test.

Red-wall stalwart and man of Conservative principle MP 30p Lee Anderson certainly would like some extra cash though, even if it means making a total mockery of what he said himself eighteen months ago.

£100K for a year's 'work' spouting shite on loony-tunes crapfest GB News at 8 hours per week, and this is the man who said poor people are too stupid to eat properly and don't know how to cook.

 

[mack341]

Keep hearing that guy's name so thought I'd look him up

Prior to his parliamentary career, he was a coal miner and worked for Citizens Advice, before serving as Labour councillor in Ashfield from 2015.

Anderson worked as a coal miner for ten years, and then volunteered and eventually worked for Citizens Advice for another decade. Afterwards, he worked in hostels supporting homeless care leavers.

He was suspended in February 2018 by the local branch of the Labour Party after receiving a community protection warning by the council for using boulders to block members of the Traveller community from "setting up camp at a site in the area"

Anderson accused the Traveller community in Ashfield of thievery, stating, "...the Gypsy encampments that we are talking about in places such as Ashfield are not the traditional, old-fashioned Gypsies sat there playing the mandolin, flogging lucky heather and telling fortunes. The Travellers I am talking about are more likely to be seen leaving your garden shed at 3 o'clock in the morning, probably with your lawnmower and half of your tools. That happens every single time they come to Ashfield"

He doesn't sound too bad, certainly not wedded to pie in the sky, PC labour ideology!

 

[dunover]

Keep hearing that guy's name so thought I'd look him up

Prior to his parliamentary career, he was a coal miner and worked for Citizens Advice, before serving as Labour councillor in Ashfield from 2015.

Anderson worked as a coal miner for ten years, and then volunteered and eventually worked for Citizens Advice for another decade. Afterwards, he worked in hostels supporting homeless care leavers.

He was suspended in February 2018 by the local branch of the Labour Party after receiving a community protection warning by the council for using boulders to block members of the Traveller community from "setting up camp at a site in the area"

Anderson accused the Traveller community in Ashfield of thievery, stating, "...the Gypsy encampments that we are talking about in places such as Ashfield are not the traditional, old-fashioned Gypsies sat there playing the mandolin, flogging lucky heather and telling fortunes. The Travellers I am talking about are more likely to be seen leaving your garden shed at 3 o'clock in the morning, probably with your lawnmower and half of your tools. That happens every single time they come to Ashfield"

He doesn't sound too bad, certainly not wedded to pie in the sky, PC labour ideology!

This guy simply MUST be elected next Conservative leader and become Stormer's oppo after the 2024 GE. Speaks the truth, pulls no punches and doesn't hide behind mealy-mouthed awkward subject-avoidance talk.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Thoughts on Andrew Bridgen MP being given the boot by the Conservative Party and cold-shouldered in the House of Commons when presenting evidence against the Covid narrative, the WHO takeover and control of information?

Certainly not democratic. Has an argument ever been ignored so blatantly before?

 

[pinnit2014]

Read what he said (he's a pretty clumsy politician at best) and had to read a few times, which says it all - prone to a bit of hyperbole. There's certainly sitting ministers who probably deserve the boot more. Seems to have been because he referenced the Holocaust? (well, the - probably made up - cardiologist). Think there was some non declaration of financial interests in there (Good enough for Boris and his mysterious 800k loan, though).

Local elections in part of England tomorrow - if folk remember to bring their ID's with them. You need to extrapolate the results from it to national levels but it'll be interesting to see if the Tories can bleed less than 1000 'seats'. Anything less will be seen as a mild victory and might see Labour getting twitchy for next year (not for winning, majority wise)

What i do approve of was Labour exiling Corbyn (be one to watch if he stands as an Independent), thought Starmer needs to watch out for a tendency to flip flop. Seemingly he has being on a quest to purge the party of the far left as he has a fear that if the majority is slim he doesn't want to rely on horse trading with that cohort.

Not been keeping an eye on recent events down south as too busy seeing what they're going to dig up next in Sturgeon's garden.

 

[mack341]

Thoughts on Andrew Bridgen MP being given the boot by the Conservative Party and cold-shouldered in the House of Commons when presenting evidence against the Covid narrative, the WHO takeover and control of information?

Certainly not democratic. Has an argument ever been ignored so blatantly before?

Absolute disgrace and pathetic, whatever happened to having a debate, it's surely the main point of a parliament. They're treating it like a club.

I'd love it if his constituents vote him back in at the next GE.

 

[pinnit2014]

Thoughts on Andrew Bridgen MP being given the boot by the Conservative Party and cold-shouldered in the House of Commons when presenting evidence against the Covid narrative, the WHO takeover and control of information?

Certainly not democratic. Has an argument ever been ignored so blatantly before?

He's got a new job, won't need to go onto JSA for now - joined the Reclaim Party (which i think you can fit all their members into a Lift)

 

[bamberfishcake]

He's got a new job, won't need to go onto JSA for now - joined the Reclaim Party (which i think you can fit all their members into a Lift)

Ooh, The Reclaim Party. If the honourable Mr Bridgen has joined them, I may be inclined to vote.

Sure, its probably wasted, but at least I can vote with conviction behind me. A vote for Labour or Conservative seems a waste to me if they wont discuss the sensitive subjects the public wants and needs,

 

[pinnit2014]

Ooh, The Reclaim Party. If the honourable Mr Bridgen has joined them, I may be inclined to vote.

Sure, its probably wasted, but at least I can vote with conviction behind me. A vote for Labour or Conservative seems a waste to me if they wont discuss the sensitive subjects the public wants and needs,

Used to be known as the Brexit Express (choo, choo?), which i just thought was Tesco trying to re-market themselves.

 

[mack341]

I might vote for them

There's another new party with an ex tv doc fronting it [always comes across a bit gay] the reform party which was farage's brexit party [which he created when he fell out with ukip - I think ]

Both parties will probably take votes off the tories and that could let labour in, but maybe the conservatives need to learn the hard way, don't treat your voters like lemmings who'll back you regardless of performance and policies.

 

[pinnit2014]

That'll be 2 votes for them now - maybe go into coalition with Starmer at this rate

Fox? He ran for Mayor didn't he - got something like -10 votes: think he has a segment etc on GB news etc

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So it's farewell to Boris Johnson, who would have comfortably been the worst Prime Minister the UK had ever been unfortunate to have foisted upon it, had Liz Truss not swept in right behind him to take the crown. (Although Johnson arguably did far more long term damage than Truss.)

He leaves parliament in the same way he entered it, lying about everything and refusing to take responsibility for anything, and blaming everyone else for the evident and catastrophic failure of Brexit (y'know, the one he told us all was a massive triumph whilst he was the actual Prime Minister), and indeed much of the functioning of the UK itself, its institutions, its influence on the international stage, and of course its economy.

But it's not just Johnson, it's thirteen years of devastating Tory misrule that will take decades to fix, if it ever can be at all.

What a legacy.

 

[pinnit2014]

No doubt it was to free himself up for some of the lucrative speech giving circuit (won't need the BBC Chairman to broker 800k loans anymore )

Looking into the future, they've certainly got a identity crisis looming (i was reading/listening to how voters, typically starting on the left, drifting over to the right - well, right of centre - in the past isn't happening as much). Rishi, obviously hating Speedy Sue, is fending off a far right uprising so will be interesting to see what direction they go next year: I watched that Bat Shit crazy Nat Con conference (odd to see Gove there) and if they go down that route it's hard to not see it as an election cul-de-sac.

Labour too are not without their problems - Starmer - a born again Brexiteer? - viewed with suspicion after his purge of of the left over the two years is at risk of being viewed of a flip flopping politician.

Labour have been quiet over Brexit - probably realising, not matter what some of the polling indicates - people don't being told 'you were wrong' (regardless if that is right/wrong) so their current position seems to be no talk of second votes (that would kill them off, again, regardless of the polling %'s - surely a lot of that will be a blaming of the implementation of it by the Tories?) but to work with what they've been handed. Even Ed Davey's not being knocking down anything in that regard

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I don't like Starmer and I don't like the direction he's moved the Labour Party in, but I'm beginning to realise he's played a very clever electoral long game, especially on Brexit. As you say pinnit, no one likes being told they got it wrong, and Brexit is still far too emotional a subject for many people to rationally engage with. (I like James 'O Brien's line on this, 'Contempt for the conmen, compassion for the conned', and I've said here many times I don't blame anyone who voted for Brexit, but I am now out of patience with anyone who suggests 'it just needs more time' or 'it wasn't done right.)

From an electoral point of view there was nothing for Starmer to gain by getting embroiled in Brexit, certainly a year or two or three ago, all he really had to do, was wait, because its failings would inevitably become so manifest and obvious to even the meanest of intellects, that the sands of public opinion would shift, and then he could move in behind that. As the old saying doesn't go, Starmer didn't need to go to the mountain, because eventually the mountain would come to him - and I think he knew that. Starmer may be many things, but stupid is not one of them.

Even now he has to tread incredibly carefully, because I think the only element of Brexit that could still be successfully weaponised at this point, is the narrative that someone wants to take it away, that would probably still be potent enough to rally enough troops to the Brexit cause to give him trouble in constituencies that he really needs to win.

So for now he has to parrot nonsense like 'Making Brexit Work', and talk about Britain's future being outside the EU and all the rest of it, when the truth is that the UK is going to have to align more closely with the EU on all sorts of things over the coming years, that's just the effect of economic and political gravity. it doesn't have to be fully re-joining, that's probably still 15-20 years away, but there's all sorts of stuff we can do in the interim, the main prizes being getting back in the Single Market and Customs Union.

You only need to look at the how the UK is getting squeezed out in the whole EV/green thing, with the USA and EU flexing off against each other, getting ready to throw hundreds of billions at it to fend off China, and the UK is sitting on the sidelines with the latest pledge from Rishi being one billion quid over ten years, it's chicken feed. The UK's car industry is producing the lowest number of cars since 2016 (the year of the referendum), it's withering on the vine.

Overall I understand Starmer's approach, job number one is to win an election, there's no point losing the election but being on the right side of the argument (as Corbyn liked to claim), as it's bugger all use if you're stuck on the opposition benches.

The Tories are just a bunch of demented feral cats in a sack at this moment in time, tearing each other to pieces and collapsing in real time in front of our eyes, it'd be funny if they weren't supposed to be actually running the fucking country.

So yes, job number one is get Labour in, and that then gives them fives years to try and get some shit done, but Starmer knows he will have to have something to show for those five years if he's to get a second term, and the absolute easiest wins that are right there on the table to be scooped up, is starting to get us back aligned with the EU on all sorts of stuff and reaping those economic benefits, doesn't have to be rejoining, and I think the Single Market and Customs Union are outside of term one too, even that's probably a ten year project - such is the schism that Brexit has created.

 

[pinnit2014]

I think even the most ardent remainers wouldn't contemplate a rejoining now: the EU would probably put a lot of conditions on it such as the Single Currency/the rebate, so 'working closer' will be the Labour MO for the next term.

You get the sense of weariness of the Johnson Pantomime now; there wasn't a mass of resignations like some had thought there would be, with some now coming out wishing to draw a line under it. His resignation letter - if you can call it that - was quite odd as well: he's definitely been taking lessons from Trump

As for his political legacy - i wouldn't put getting Brexit Done as that much of achievement; he got the Bill through, but, er. 80 seat majority? - well, one word: Corbyn.

It is hard to see how a lurch further to the right will benefit them (when) they lose next year but you can feel Speedy Sue getting ready as we speak (atm she probably doesn't have the support but a butchering next year may change that)

Speaking of EV and cars: the German's are in real precarious position regarding their car industry: if i read right China surpassed their production in the last year and the short/medium term isn't looking too hot for them.