"Transparency", is all we are asking for

Mavin1

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In all the threads and all the posts of we the players, that have not been happy with the experience of the majority of online gaming have expressed, I feel our issue keeps getting lost in the emotion of it all.

We are labeled, dictated to, as to not be posting or playing if we are not satisfied and so on. If we ask for a casino rep to come and answer questions, our concerns are met with hostility from a few that think we are "pot stirrers". We are told we have run off a rep by our posts. I don't understand this. A casino rep is in a tough business to be sure, but it is their job to help us come to an understanding, are their skins not as thick as ours, because we seem to take a lot more heat for the passion of our concerns than anyone else on this forum.

The other thing that distorts our position is when a poster comes along, makes wild and outrageous accusations against a casino, having ripped her off and many of us were duped into thinking we were helping the cause, when in reality we were being used by a poster to try to get her money back, this is just my feelings. We all now full well that if we lose, we will not be reimbursed and don't expect to be, unless our loses are truly caused by a casino malfunction, but in this last episode, I don't believe that it was.

What other way would a person with a true problem for gambling think of to try and coerce a casino into giving back the players deposits or monitarily settle with her, but to bring it to a public forum. Then keep posting the same thing over and over in long stretched out posts, reminding the rep how many are viewing the thread and so on. This person was looking for backup and an audience. Which again is my opinion. As the poster stated, she had been watching this forum very closely and I'm sure seeing how passionate we are, figured we could be used to beat down a casino for her and get her what she wanted. I also feel she more than likely had seen the previous thread regarding a malfunction of the playthrough not calculating correctly, so who's to say a person would not take that experience and call it their own as well.

There is, I'm certain, not a single one of us that have our rants that would only start asking questions, $10,000.00 later!!! We would be checking everything and asking everything or moving on, long before that.

So here we are today, feeling used and a bit violated, because we thought we were helping someone that wanted what we want. But it was not the case, far from it. What posters like that don't realize is we are not wanting refunds or daily wins or anything of the sort.

What we want is "Transparency", to be able to know that a game we may choose may not be a decent rtp level at that time. When most players are seeking out a casino, they are looking at the RTP's that are posted next to each featured casino and 9 times out of 10 the player will go with the casino that is advertising 97.5% before they will go to one that is at 95.0%. Why, because we are simply looking for a fair place to play, because this is a pastime we do enjoy.

However, a poster that drags us off into a thread that after awhile starts looking like we have been taken, duped and used for ones personal gain, then it leaves our true cause with a serious black eye. I think we all have to be careful as to who we are backing up when it comes to ranting, as not all rant starters have the same motives as the majority of us do.

We only want transparency, to know we are getting a fair game. We do not want to set fire to any casino or rep or anything else negative that we have been compared to.

I, as many most likely others do, truly appreciated the rep coming in to that thread and addressing the problem as professionaly as possible, without stepping to the level of the poster.

So personaly I would like to know if the Transparency issues from last year have gotten anywhere and if we can expect something in the near future in this aspect?
 

RobWin

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We are told we have run off a rep by our posts. I don't understand this. A casino rep is in a tough business to be sure, but it is their job to help us come to an understanding, are their skins not as thick as ours, because we seem to take a lot more heat for the passion of our concerns than anyone else on this forum.

"To expect them to grow another layer of skin in order to publicly solve a problem is utter bullshit."

There's your answer! ;)
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KasinoKing

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So personally I would like to know if the Transparency issues from last year have gotten anywhere and if we can expect something in the near future in this aspect?
IMHO; No and No.
As long as casinos can keep on making a profit without providing the "transparency" you seek, I can't see them changing anything. :(

KK
 

bb28

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Mavin.........that was a really great post. :thumbsup: You said a lot of what I said in the other thread that got closed, but you said it much better than I.

Transparency.....I'm all for it and I wish there was a way we could have it RIGHT NOW, but I don't think we will until laws and regulations are changed. Hopefully sooner than later. :)
 

Casinomeister

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What we want is "Transparency", to be able to know that a game we may choose may not be a decent rtp level at that time. When most players are seeking out a casino, they are looking at the RTP's that are posted next to each featured casino and 9 times out of 10 the player will go with the casino that is advertising 97.5% before they will go to one that is at 95.0%. Why, because we are simply looking for a fair place to play, because this is a pastime we do enjoy.
You get this at different levels - transparency. For instance, Wager Works gives you the RTP for each slot. In fact, I believe they are the only ones who do this. Other providers give the RTP by types of games - sometimes it's not so specific.

When I spoke to MGS a few weeks ago, this was one of the topics we discussed. As a software provider, they are concerned about giving out too much info that would benefit their competitors. Operators would probably shy away from this as well - but on the flip side, perhaps it would be a good thing. This takes a lot of convincing - there is a balance between trade secrets and useful information.

Don't forget that RTP is theoretical, and I'm not sure how much stress should be made on this. When Microgaming releases games, the RTP is set in stone. But over the past couple of years, players have been complaining more and more about "never winning", the games are rigged etc. Maybe the newer games are set lower - I don't know. But for MGS players who feel that things are worse, perhaps they should be playing the older games...

However, a poster that drags us off into a thread that after awhile starts looking like we have been taken, duped and used for ones personal gain, then it leaves our true cause with a serious black eye. I think we all have to be careful as to who we are backing up when it comes to ranting, as not all rant starters have the same motives as the majority of us do...
It pays to be level headed when participating in the forum. People tend to get excited, and many tend to jump to conclusions as well.

...We only want transparency, to know we are getting a fair game. We do not want to set fire to any casino or rep or anything else negative that we have been compared to.

I, as many most likely others do, truly appreciated the rep coming in to that thread and addressing the problem as professionaly as possible, without stepping to the level of the poster.
I think many of the reps here do the best that they can. You're never going to get total transparency when it comes to the casino business for a number of reasons. But many companies do the best they can.


So personaly I would like to know if the Transparency issues from last year have gotten anywhere and if we can expect something in the near future in this aspect?
I'm not sure specifically which trans. issues you are referring to. But I think in the future, US players will be afforded just as much transparency as their UK cousins. But that's the future...it still may be a long way off.

"To expect them to grow another layer of skin in order to publicly solve a problem is utter bullshit."

There's your answer! ;)
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If you are disagreeing with me, explain to me why anyone in this forum should put up with insults while trying to assist a player.
 

RobWin

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If you are disagreeing with me, explain to me why anyone in this forum should put up with insults while trying to assist a player.

What I disagree with is the insinuation that "Casino Forum Reps' should be treated with kid gloves. No one should "have to" put up with personal insults but casino insults and player emotions are a totally different anomaly.

In that other thread I also said in my first sentence there...

"I do agree that casino reps should not be belittled or poked up the ass for that matter but in that same regard, Casino Reps on the worlds most renowned and most savvy "casino player forum" should also realize that they do need to wear their "thick skin" when they agree to be a Rep on here." Source

To think that "Casino Reps" are not going to take some flak here every now and then is just not possible with all of the player emotions that are involved when one has just lost a huge sum of money and felt they have been clearly ripped by the online casino in question...

Hence the extra layer of "Thick Skin" that is most assuredly needed by the Casino Rep. Too many Casino Reps here on many occasions have taken casino criticism as "personal criticism", we have seen this happen more than a couple of times over the years.

Casino Reps need to put their personal feelings and emotions to the the back burner when dealing with a large percentage of these threads and posts simply because of the player emotions involved in the players heat of the moment and the players lack of ability in that moment to think rationally.

Where money is involved, emotions and heat will be involved as well and as such the "Casino Reps" should take that into account and act professionally, above and beyond that, that is expected from the irrational thinking player who has just lost the mortgage money for the month.
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Casinomeister

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@Robwin - understood.

But I don't think I was insinuating that casino reps should be treated with kid gloves. Perhaps I'm being misunderstood when I say that they should be treated like any other member here. That's all. There just tends to be an attitude amongst a number of members that casino reps are fair game to beat up. Wait until a player issue goes pear shaped, and then yeah I can understand it. But when a guy isn't even aware of a thread, and people are accusing him of ignoring players because he's a crook is not cool.

If the members of this forum desire to have a productive interaction between players, webmasters, and industry folk, then people need to treat one another with civility. It's pretty simple.

I think a number of casino reps do fine in dealing with whacked out players. It's not the reps I'm worried about :p
 

RobWin

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@Robwin - understood.

But I don't think I was insinuating that casino reps should be treated with kid gloves. Perhaps I'm being misunderstood when I say that they should be treated like any other member here. That's all. There just tends to be an attitude amongst a number of members that casino reps are fair game to beat up. Wait until a player issue goes pear shaped, and then yeah I can understand it. But when a guy isn't even aware of a thread, and people are accusing him of ignoring players because he's a crook is not cool.

If the members of this forum desire to have a productive interaction between players, webmasters, and industry folk, then people need to treat one another with civility. It's pretty simple.

I think a number of casino reps do fine in dealing with whacked out players. It's not the reps I'm worried about :p

Agreed! :thumbsup:
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Mavin1

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Arizona
You get this at different levels - transparency. For instance, Wager Works gives you the RTP for each slot. In fact, I believe they are the only ones who do this. Other providers give the RTP by types of games - sometimes it's not so specific.

When I spoke to MGS a few weeks ago, this was one of the topics we discussed. As a software provider, they are concerned about giving out too much info that would benefit their competitors. Operators would probably shy away from this as well - but on the flip side, perhaps it would be a good thing. This takes a lot of convincing - there is a balance between trade secrets and useful information.

Don't forget that RTP is theoretical, and I'm not sure how much stress should be made on this. When Microgaming releases games, the RTP is set in stone. But over the past couple of years, players have been complaining more and more about "never winning", the games are rigged etc. Maybe the newer games are set lower - I don't know. But for MGS players who feel that things are worse, perhaps they should be playing the older games...

It pays to be level headed when participating in the forum. People tend to get excited, and many tend to jump to conclusions as well.

I think many of the reps here do the best that they can. You're never going to get total transparency when it comes to the casino business for a number of reasons. But many companies do the best they can.

I'm not sure specifically which trans. issues you are referring to. But I think in the future, US players will be afforded just as much transparency as their UK cousins. But that's the future...it still may be a long way off.

If you are disagreeing with me, explain to me why anyone in this forum should put up with insults while trying to assist a player.



As has been discussed before, it would be extremely valuable to a player to have the same benefits that players of Wagerworks offers. It is unfortunate again, being from the US, that we cannot choose to play at this casino.

Maybe the Providers need to be reminded that what is good for the player is always going to be good for the casino or software provider. We do not ask that we be given backend knowledge of anything, but would like to have a fair and fighting chance when a player is looking at 100+ games and only $35 to spend.
Like the MG temp meters, if they are updated in a timely manner, then the player can find longer play sessions and even better return. This keeps us playing longer and spending more often with them. This can only be a win win situation on both sides.
Afterall, there is a bigger return of players that enjoy a casino compared to a player that has an addiction, these players tend to fizzle. But the happy pastime player will always return to a casino they enjoy.

Not being able to play the new releases with MG, I don't know how they play. But playing the older games I do find a fair and equal return with MG much more often than other softwares. Unfortunately there are also many US players that are unable to even play MG and that is truly a shame.

I can certainly appreciate that and would hope that we can all be more level headed as you say, when it comes to dealing with reps. However I would hope if some of us come off a little strong that they don't just drop out, this only exaccerbates the problem. Sometimes a little venting needs to be gotten out of the way and then things can proceed much better.

This was regarding a poll Simmo started in December of 2009, Simmo's thread to vote on Transparency in published expect returns (by game).
It has been filed in the back of my mind and keeps popping up sometimes, wondering if it has been forgotten.





Thank you,
Mavin
 

vinylweatherman

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I can't see why MGS feel something as harmless as published RTP values leave them vulnerable to competitors. WagerWorks publish them yet it was MICROGAMING (mostly) that got "ripped off" by Jackpots Heaven a while back, and that had NOTHING to do with MGS publishing "too much information", it was a case of downloading a client & raiding the files for artwork, or even just taking screenshots of a genuine MGS game.

Refusal to publish something like RTP, unlikely to REALLY benefit competitors, yet something INTELLIGENT players would like some transparency on, looks like the figures, if published, would be unpleasant reading for players, and risk lowering the player base. This would ONLY be a problem if the RTPs were LOWER than the commonly believed figure of 95% for slots overall.

Intelligent players can work out RTP for themselves anyway, and this WAS done for many MGS slots a while back, yet there is NO evidence this has allowed competitors to gain any advantage, indeed, players will fight MGS's corner when they see some "clip joint" like Jackpots Heaven trying to con others with a "ripped off" MGS game, seeing the fake offering as an insult to the real thing.
 

Mavin1

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I can't see why MGS feel something as harmless as published RTP values leave them vulnerable to competitors. WagerWorks publish them yet it was MICROGAMING (mostly) that got "ripped off" by Jackpots Heaven a while back, and that had NOTHING to do with MGS publishing "too much information", it was a case of downloading a client & raiding the files for artwork, or even just taking screenshots of a genuine MGS game.

Refusal to publish something like RTP, unlikely to REALLY benefit competitors, yet something INTELLIGENT players would like some transparency on, looks like the figures, if published, would be unpleasant reading for players, and risk lowering the player base. This would ONLY be a problem if the RTPs were LOWER than the commonly believed figure of 95% for slots overall.
Intelligent players can work out RTP for themselves anyway, and this WAS done for many MGS slots a while back, yet there is NO evidence this has allowed competitors to gain any advantage, indeed, players will fight MGS's corner when they see some "clip joint" like Jackpots Heaven trying to con others with a "ripped off" MGS game, seeing the fake offering as an insult to the real thing.

I couldn't agree more with these statements. There is the likelyhood that publishing the RTP's would alleviate a heck of a lot of moaning and groaning and endless streams of negative postings.

Although I do my fair share of it, it is very tiresome. Providers and casinos should realize that we just want to enjoy our time and money spent rather than always carrying the torch. After a while it gets very heavy and if we do decide to throw it down, this does not mean we have given up, but it could mean that casinos are losing players because of turning the deaf ear to us constantly.

All software providers should give players just this little bit of consideration. I would have higher regard to software providers that did do this and more loyalty to a casino. Afterall, bottom line is, we are your target market.

Bonuses, vip programs, tournaments, drawings and all are fine and dandy, but I would gladly see all that gone, just to know what the real RTP is where I am playing.
 

nisosbar

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Where money is involved, emotions and heat will be involved as well and as such the "Casino Reps" should take that into account and act professionally, above and beyond that, that is expected from the irrational thinking player who has just lost the mortgage money for the month.

Absolutely. No question about it. The two things people argue about more than anything else are money and sex. When you're not getting enough, you pitch a bitch. :D
 

KasinoKing

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Absolutely. No question about it. The two things people argue about more than anything else are money and sex. When you're not getting enough, you pitch a bitch. :D
Well I'm not sure how Max is going to help me in THAT department - but hell, I might as well give it a shot! :p

KK
 

maxd

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Well I'm not sure how Max is going to help me in THAT department - but hell, I might as well give it a shot!

:Read: Yikes, not sure I'm qualified for that part of the job.

How do you feel about lady bodybuilders? (that's Alina Popa by the way ;) )
 

Nifty29

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Turn right, then right. then right again
The other thing that distorts our position is when a poster comes along, makes wild and outrageous accusations against a casino, having ripped her off and many of us were duped into thinking we were helping the cause, when in reality we were being used by a poster to try to get her money back, this is just my feelings. We all now full well that if we lose, we will not be reimbursed and don't expect to be, unless our loses are truly caused by a casino malfunction, but in this last episode, I don't believe that it was.

What other way would a person with a true problem for gambling think of to try and coerce a casino into giving back the players deposits or monitarily settle with her, but to bring it to a public forum. Then keep posting the same thing over and over in long stretched out posts, reminding the rep how many are viewing the thread and so on. This person was looking for backup and an audience. Which again is my opinion. As the poster stated, she had been watching this forum very closely and I'm sure seeing how passionate we are, figured we could be used to beat down a casino for her and get her what she wanted. I also feel she more than likely had seen the previous thread regarding a malfunction of the playthrough not calculating correctly, so who's to say a person would not take that experience and call it their own as well.

There is, I'm certain, not a single one of us that have our rants that would only start asking questions, $10,000.00 later!!! We would be checking everything and asking everything or moving on, long before that.

So here we are today, feeling used and a bit violated, because we thought we were helping someone that wanted what we want. But it was not the case, far from it. What posters like that don't realize is we are not wanting refunds or daily wins or anything of the sort.

Well said Mavin. Lets hope some others who like to hurl the Molotovs can see the sense in what you posted. :thumbsup:

Re: RTP. I dont see why casinos cant publish expected RTPs - but players need to understand that it will actually make little difference to whether they win or lose. Winning and losing is a fluid thing as we all know - after all, the only way to certainly get a 95% RTP on every session is to make the slot pay you back 95% of your bet on every single spin (and aint nobody gonna play that one!).

It seems from what Mavin and others are saying that value for money/playing time is more important than the big hit to them......so the only information that will really help you choose the right slot is some kind of variance indicator - much like 3 Dice does. Each slot could be rated from 1-10 so that a player who wants their money to last longer can make an informed choice. Im sure it would be easy to add this to any MG game, and it would not be giving any competitors any information that could hurt their brand. MGS already know the variance level of each slot, its just a matter of publishing it. A 98% RTP slot with high variance can take your money just as fast as an 85% slot with low variance.

I think players get too caught up in RTP. You cant tell the difference between a 98% and a 95% slot just by playing it for a few sessions. Also, you have to remember that if a slot pays out 120% one month and 76% the next month, the average RTP over the two months is still 98% - so if you were to be playing in the second month you might think you were being ripped off (and at 76% thats understandable), but the advertised RTP doesnt apply per month or per week etc...its a average figure over one cycle of a slot (i.e how many spins it takes for every possible combination to come up), and that could take a long time given that many combinations might come up many times more than expected and some others a lot less.

Anyway, you can know everything about how a slot works and then some....but you will still lose. You cant control what happens after you press 'SPIN', but you do have control over which slot you press the "SPIN' button on :thumbsup:
 

Rusty

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@Robwin - understood.

But I don't think I was insinuating that casino reps should be treated with kid gloves. Perhaps I'm being misunderstood when I say that they should be treated like any other member here. That's all. There just tends to be an attitude amongst a number of members that casino reps are fair game to beat up. Wait until a player issue goes pear shaped, and then yeah I can understand it. But when a guy isn't even aware of a thread, and people are accusing him of ignoring players because he's a crook is not cool.

If the members of this forum desire to have a productive interaction between players, webmasters, and industry folk, then people need to treat one another with civility. It's pretty simple.

I think a number of casino reps do fine in dealing with whacked out players. It's not the reps I'm worried about :p

I agree with all of that and as you concede Robwin has a point too.
There needs to be a balance but I see all to often a Rep use the idea of being ganged up on as an excuse to get out of dodge and not respond to awkward questions.
Hell, when I put myself in the firing line I make sure I lock and load and I'm ready to rock!:gunmen:
Perhaps you could issue a zero tolerance warning on personal attacks on Reps? I would support that as long as it was not used as a device to mute heated debate.

On transparency.
I really do believe this trade secrets line software companies throw out is another get out of jail free card they play.

What has announcing the RTP to do with trade secrets?
Nothing, there is no excuse not to have it in the paytable. - I know why they don't but that is another matter.

The trade secrets they refer to are the algorithms that control the weighting and sure they are not likely to broadcast that.
The only other option for them is to say they are protecting the reel maps.
Well since reel maps already freely exist and since a monkey can design reel strips and incorporate the RTP and variance let alone their competitors who already have their own slots which are more innovative anyway, then I am bound to say such an excuse is easily dismissed.
So back to the algorithms then.

Ask they and other providers if any of their 5 reel slots have any form of weighting and have them answer categorically.
Ask them if the RTP or variance of the slot can be altered.
Ask them if freespin round triggers are completely independent of any other controls.
Ask them how much of the RTP is returned through bonus rounds and if the weighting in pick rounds remains completely constant and unchanged.

They can answer all of the above without fear of giving away trade secrets.

It is time they took a long hard look at the way the industry is going and how players are reacting.

Personally I would be happy if they just admitted it in corporate speak - something like;

There are algorithms that process the RNG data but this is necessary to provide the gameplay experience we believe our players want.
The RTP of our slots can be altered within a narrow band but we can assure our players this is always fair and within industry expectations.
We are aware of and recognise the concerns of the playing community about the issues of transparency and in the future we will be supplying all new slots with a published RTP which will need to be updated if any changes are made. We will also be updating all existing slots with the same information allowing players to make an informed choice.

Something like that would I think go a long way to improving the credibility of any software provider with the good business and PR sense to put it out there. The time is right.
 
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