Roguish Tradition Casino and likely all Rival casinos are Rogue. All Evidence shown here.

all4greed

Now we can do business.
Joined
Jul 18, 2004
Location
Pacific NW
Don't you think it's quite likely that if you were playing blackjack and only got paid 1:1 for a BJ that you would notice pretty quickly and stop playing?

Not necessarily. If I play BJ, it's multihand and I don't check to see what it pays, just move on to the next hand. But I'm assuming it paid correctly. And I tend to play fast. So seeing what was posted, I don't buy into the assumption that people saw it was paying incorrectly and moved on. I am leaning more towards those numbers were made up to make it look lower.

Call me skeptical...
 

tradition

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Location
malta
I still apologize for what happened but I won't provide players names, sorry : it's private.

But, as requested, here you are detailled hands :

"User", "Trans ID", "Winnings", "Paid", "Difference"

"Hand Description",

1801353,1682815670, 1.5, 1, 0.5
"1|Ah,Jc:2s,4c|1|0|1",

2121210,1730477418, 4.5, 1.5, 3
"3|As,Qs:Ac,3d|1|1.5|1",

2130056,1726990262, 7.5, 5, 2.5
"5|Jc,Ac:Tc,Qd|1|0|1",

2148975,1835561797, 0.5, 0, 0.5
"1,1|6d,Th;Ah,Ts:2s,7h,Th|1,1|0,0|2",

2313340,1729260321, 3, 2, 1
"2|Jh,Ad:3h,Ts|1|0|1",

2627524,1700687893, 15, 10, 5
"10|Td,Ah:9d,Th|1|0|1",

2647271,1791686952, 4, 3, 1
"1,1,1|7h,8d;Jc,Ah;Ad,Th:Th,6d,7h|1,1,1|0,0,0|3",

2647271,1795900273, 1, 0, 1
"2,2,2|Jc,Ah;Ac,7h;Kc,Tc:Jc,Qs|1,1,1|0,0,0|3",

2647271,1799609890, 2.5, 2, 0.5
"1,1|Ad,Js;Td,4d:2c,9d,2d,9c|1,1|0,0|2",

2647271,1804615253, 3.5, 3, 0.5
"1,1,1|Ah,Qs;6c,7c;8s,Js:9c,4c,Kh|1,1,1|0,0,0|3",

2647271,1804770312, 10, 7.5, 2.5
"10,5,5|Js,Kd;As,Tc;Jh,3h:5h,As,Qh,5d|1,1,1|0,0,0|3"

2647271,1804772135, 7.5, 5, 2.5
"5,5,5|Qd,7h;Ah,Qh;7d,Tc:8s,2h,7h|1,1,1|0,0,0|3",

2647271,1807265300, 7, 3.5, 3.5
"7,7,7|5h,Qh;Tc,4c;Qc,Ac:Ts,9d|1,1,1|0,0,0|3",

2675820,1808126199, 1.5, 1, 0.5
"1|Js,Ac:7h,Jh|1|0|1",

2675820,1809551117, 3, 2, 1
"2|Td,Ad:2c,4s|1|0|1",

2675820,1838092434, 1.5, 1, 0.5
"1|Tc,As:4h,Td|1|0|1",

2675820,1838092972, 1.5, 1, 0.5
"1|Ad,Qd:3h,Kc|1|0|1",

2786655,1839688519, 250, 200, 50
"100,100|Js,Kc;Ah,Ks:5s,Jd,9h|1,1|0,0|2",

2786655,1841311611, 150, 100, 50
"100|As,Ts:Ks,Th|1|0|1",

If SamD seems to have very high amount compared to other players it's only because he played huge hands on this game : he wagered minimum $100 per hand and maximum $400.

So, all other players played with lower amounts and wagered minimum $2 per hand and maximum $15, so their amounts won have nothing to do with SamD winnings.

As you can imagine, in a new casino as Tradition, proportion of chance to have such highroller as SamD is very low, most of our players only play to slots and table games players are very rare. Then, i think we don't have a lot of players whom are playing at table games because most of our bonuses are not valid for table games.

FYI, in March, we have had 1,954 hands played on normal Blackjack and 965 hands played on Multi hands. But in March, we have had 8,925,827 total hands played in our casino (all games included).

So, you can imagine that Tradition didn't have any interest to voluntarily change payouts on Blackjack considering that this game is rarely played, that we use to not give bonuses on it and that we never have had big winners on it. SamD played on slots and blackjack both and even if he played huge hands on blackjack, he earned aproximatively 2.5 times his deposits, so he's not a big winner at all... His winnings came from slots, not from Blackjack.

Last, the only one player whom noticed us about the payout blackjack problem is SamD and we made the change immediately, as SamD can confirm. If an other player than SamD had wrote us regarding the same problem, our reaction would have been the same and we would have make the change immediately : we don't have any interest to have a payout different from our felt and we don't have interest to have low payouts on this game especially, it's stupid.

I don't remember whom said here that Tradition lost more than it earned regarding this payout problem... I would like just confirm that "yes". It's fully true. Tradition is probably the first online casino to be classed rogue about $125...

Gambling licence don't depends on me directly but depends on Rival and i'm paying Rival for having a fair software. If i wanted organise independants audits from software, differents from those provided by Rival itself, i wouldn't have made the choice to choose a white label : i would have taken an independant casino with my own licence, as Slotocash's option, by example.

In conclusion, regarding this whole situation : i cannot do more than i already done. All players have been contacted and recovered incorrect amounts paid, i apologized, payouts have been changed, my casino has been classed rogue on Casinomeister because of these incorrect $125 winnings paid and i provided you full list of players concerned + hands played. And i put my "fire suit"...
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
FYI, in March, we have had 1,954 hands played on normal Blackjack and 965 hands played on Multi hands.

So 2,919 hands altogether....and out of almost 3,000 hands, there were less than twenty blackjacks? Wow...yeah, that seems accurate. :rolleyes:

And KK, for you to say that such a small number of BJ's seems accurate and/or right, pretty much blows my mind.


Last, the only one player whom noticed us about the payout blackjack problem is SamD and we made the change immediately, as SamD can confirm. If an other player than SamD had wrote us regarding the same problem, our reaction would have been the same and we would have make the change immediately :

The lies flow so freely, don't they? It wasn't one player, and SamD wasn't the first. And you didn't fix it "immediately", even in his case. Refre/Freddy experienced the "rigged" version, a FULL MONTH prior to SamD....and has the emails/live chats to confirm this. NOTHING was done about it. Lies, lies, lies. And people wonder why I hate Rival with a passion?

I had the exact same problem at Tradition casino the 22. of last month.
Of course I realize now I should have posted here back then.
They claimed "we have made some updates to ensure that this does not occur again". Obviously they didn't.

Freddy

Hiya Pina. I'm afraid the screenshot is lost.
But I do have e-mails / live chats confirming the malfunction.
I'll see if I can find a screenshot of the hand history.

They did send me a few small bonuses to make up for their mistake.
I didn't make a big deal about it since I was playing with a ND bonus in the first palce.

Update:

Old Attachment (Invalid)

Freddy
 

tradition

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Location
malta
Pinababy, I don't know who is freddy and i even don't know if this player is included in the list provided by rival.

I can only confirm that about 2010-02-22 an update has been made by Rival on normal blackjack and an other update has been made by Rival too about 2010-03-27 on Blackjack Multi-Hand.

So we simply need to know who is Freddy, at what game he played exactly and if he receieved an email from us last 4 days...

If this player is not listed or if he has not been contacted with exact detail of transactions + apologizes, i'd be VERY surprise....

Regarding the fact that you hate Rival, i'm affraid that i cannot help you. Hatred is a very deep feeling.
 
Last edited:

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
So 2,919 hands altogether....and out of almost 3,000 hands, there were less than twenty blackjacks? Wow...yeah, that seems accurate.

And KK, for you to say that such a small number of BJ's seems accurate and/or right, pretty much blows my mind.

Well thats about a 0.006% BJ rate. Pina, you are right - it doesnt sound right to me either.

I dont know the exact chances of hitting a BJ but I know it is more than that - maybe a resident BJ expert could chime in here?

Ive said this before, but I really really wish Tradition would have someone proof read their posts before they are posted. I know French is her first language, and by her own admission her English isnt great, but it is so important to be clear and concise when communicating as a Casino Rep in public. I have seen so many posts where Tradition has been jumped on through no fault of her own, other than poor choice of word/phrase which has conveyed the wrong meaning. In fact, Ive seen some nasty exchanges which started with such an occurrence.

Tradition is to be commended for being here personally as the casino owner, which isnt the norm, and for attempting to answer as many questions as possible......credit where it is due. Personally, I feel it would be so much better if she owned the licence, as many issues cannot be resolved by her as she only has limited control.

I also wouldnt have posted account numbers, nor any specific information about SamD, regardless of his persona non gratis status here these days.
 

tradition

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Location
malta
Nifty, hands list i provided you include normal and multi hand blackjack both.

I don't know exact chance to hit blackjack but 2,919 hands played in march concerned normal blackjack and payouts issue was resolved since 2010-02-22. So in march, all hands played at normal blackjacks are ok. Regarding hands played at multi hand blackjack : there were 965 hands played in march, so there is still less hands than normal blackjack.

I didn't found that accounts number were personal due to the fact that there is not possibilitie to retrieve players only with these numbers, excepted for me and my employees, of course. Regarding winnings informations given on SamD, i wanted only bring light about questions on his amounts were very superiors to amounts won by other players.

Last, regarding my english, i'm a bit surprise because sometimes players blamed me because they thought that my english was good enough for reading & understanding all entire posts and now, you are implying that my english is not good. For sure, i can understand that a fluent english will be nicer here and would help your readability, but i made this choice to manage personally problems with players. Even with such decision, i'm not fully aware about all in my own casino, as you could noticed it.... :( Having intermediar could create more misunderstandings, i'm affraid... Please be sure that i try to do my best about this point.

About gambling licence, for sure, if i were the owner of my licence, things will be differents and i would have probably organized some aditionals audits : unfortunately, it's not the case, licence & reports are provided by Rival and i'm not ready at all for pay twice the same service....
 

NASHVEGAS

Banned User - flamming, disrespecting admin,
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
MERS
Well thats about a 0.006% BJ rate. Pina, you are right - it doesnt sound right to me either.

I dont know the exact chances of hitting a BJ but I know it is more than that - maybe a resident BJ expert could chime in here?

Ive said this before, but I really really wish Tradition would have someone proof read their posts before they are posted. I know French is her first language, and by her own admission her English isnt great, but it is so important to be clear and concise when communicating as a Casino Rep in public. I have seen so many posts where Tradition has been jumped on through no fault of her own, other than poor choice of word/phrase which has conveyed the wrong meaning. In fact, Ive seen some nasty exchanges which started with such an occurrence.

Tradition is to be commended for being here personally as the casino owner, which isnt the norm, and for attempting to answer as many questions as possible......credit where it is due. Personally, I feel it would be so much better if she owned the licence, as many issues cannot be resolved by her as she only has limited control.

I also wouldnt have posted account numbers, nor any specific information about SamD, regardless of his persona non gratis status here these days.
Considering a 3 to 2, 6 to 5, 1 to 1, 0 to -1 ,lol, Blackjack will occur every 1 out of ~ 21 hands or 4.76%, I need to the read recent thread posts to catch up on this obvious inaccurate discrepancy which would be so blatantly obvious to the player, this discrepancy (too many standard deviations) would have made the EH and AP scandals/whatever, qualify for Triple AAA Accreditation. (sarcastic exageration bolded:p).

And oh the irony of mathematical BJ determinations that can be determined. Nevermind, a higher level of cheating where all mathematical determinations are simply labeled a glitch, malfunction, and/or with an officially accepted KK endorsed apology by a casino rep. (sorry KK but I do not get this apology thing or actually I do;)), seems to excuse the inexcusable aka double standards.

All the to be ignored above said (you are correct frienemy,:thumbsup:),
I culled some BJ stats from my audited play which "as is" certainly indicate the game "at the time" was distributing BJ's as expected.

TOTAL HANDS 50001 TO 97140=47140 TOTAL HANDS

TOTAL DEALER BLACKJACKS=2215
TOTAL DEALER BLACKJACKS EXPECTATION=2244.76

TOTAL PLAYER BLACKJACKS=2226
TOTAL PLAYER BLACKJACKS EXPECTATION=2244.76



Notes: 1. I personally audited so numbers may be off a number or two but not significant, 2. there were some discrepancies between some culled "real time" hands and "non real time" hand histories (3 years and Rival still advertises all hands realtime access but as is provided by Rival simply is incorrect and false so I do not care whether "Pilot" or "Passenger" error., all is simply inexcusable by Rival and if a 'ponderance of evidence applied to this Rival outfit, Rival would have been finished long ago.), 3. DID RIVAL MAKE A CODE CHANGE AT SOME POINT???????????????, regardless, there is no reason to believe this has anything to do with the past or current number of BJ's though as one should be trying to find that needle in a haystack, not a basketball going through the goal!
 

jod5413

Is That Better?
Joined
Mar 6, 2007
Location
somewhere on the planet
Ive said this before, but I really really wish Tradition would have someone proof read their posts before they are posted. I know French is her first language, and by her own admission her English isnt great, but it is so important to be clear and concise when communicating as a Casino Rep in public. I have seen so many posts where Tradition has been jumped on through no fault of her own, other than poor choice of word/phrase which has conveyed the wrong meaning. In fact, Ive seen some nasty exchanges which started with such an occurrence.

Tradition is to be commended for being here personally as the casino owner, which isnt the norm, and for attempting to answer as many questions as possible......credit where it is due. Personally, I feel it would be so much better if she owned the licence, as many issues cannot be resolved by her as she only has limited control.

I also wouldnt have posted account numbers, nor any specific information about SamD, regardless of his persona non gratis status here these days.

I have to agree strongly with you, Nifty, on the language issue. I DO believe this woman is trying her best, I DO believe she has gotten in over her head, I DO believe she is getting more than enough flak for her shortcomings. I DO remember other software "problems" with both RTG and MG, and they are still around.

I do not hate Rival, I still believe it is a close third behind MG and RTG. I hope that Tradition can better their reputation as time goes by. If not, so be it.

I can't believe I am saying this. Nash, even though you speak in foreign tongues, I do believe you have had many valid points in all your experiences playing on line, and have done your best to show us.
 

refre

Senior lurker
PABnonaccred
PABnoaccred
Joined
Jun 13, 2003
Location
.
Hi there, Casino tradition contacted me yesterday:

Hi,

Unfortunately, one of your blackjack hands has not been paid to you properly.

Transaction ID : 1726990262
Detailled transaction : 5|Jc,Ac:Tc,Qd|1|0|1

This transaction has been paid 5 instead of 07/05/10, so we owe you 02/05/10. Regularization has been made and your winnings are waiting for you in your account.

We apologize for the inconvenience.

Warmest regards,

Manager,

€17 was put in my account.

These are the details of the hand (as posted previously)

Attach Removed (Old not found)

Freddy
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
Pinababy, I don't know who is freddy and i even don't know if this player is included in the list provided by rival.

I can only confirm that about 2010-02-22 an update has been made by Rival on normal blackjack and an other update has been made by Rival too about 2010-03-27 on Blackjack Multi-Hand.

So we simply need to know who is Freddy, at what game he played exactly and if he receieved an email from us last 4 days...

If this player is not listed or if he has not been contacted with exact detail of transactions + apologizes, i'd be VERY surprise....

Regarding the fact that you hate Rival, i'm affraid that i cannot help you. Hatred is a very deep feeling.

You are missing the point. According to you, the ONLY player who contacted you was SamD...NOT TRUE. Refre/Freddy contacted you (Tradition/Rival) on February 22nd...NOT March. The rigging was in place on February 22nd, a full month before it was posted about here.

You did NOT fix the issue, not immediately, not at all. THAT'S the lie...you are trying to make out like you weren't aware of it, and that it was only a temporary thing for a short time. Not true.

The gaffed game was in play for at least a month...yet, you want us to believe that in a month's worth of play (almost 3,000 hands), there were only a TOTAL of 19 blackjacks in play?

I'm done with this...cause when you are dealing with dishonest people, this is the kind of shit you deal with. And I'm not referring to the Tradition rep..I'm referring to the top of the food chain...the Rival crooks themselves. 19 blackjacks in 2,919 hands...what a joke. Either they are completely fudging the numbers, or the software is even more rigged than originally thought. And not by mistake.
 

maphesto

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Location
Sweden
Pina:

Not to defend anyone but Tradition have responded this:

I don't know exact chance to hit blackjack but 2,919 hands played in march concerned normal blackjack

Those 19 BJ wasn´t in the "normal blackjack".
 

NASHVEGAS

Banned User - flamming, disrespecting admin,
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
MERS
Pina:

Not to defend anyone but Tradition have responded this:



Those 19 BJ wasn´t in the "normal blackjack".
FFS'S, what is so hard to understand about the expectation of player and dealer Blackjacks??, repeat:

Blackjack will occur every 1 out of ~ 21 hands or 4.76%, I need to the read recent thread posts to catch up on this obvious inaccurate discrepancy which would be so blatantly obvious to the player, this discrepancy (too many standard deviations).........

If, for example, 3000 hands of Blackjack were played , both player and dealer blackjacks dealt expectations are approx. 0.0476 per 3000 hands or 142.8 blackjacks.

How many standard deviations are we talking about. So many sd's that there is a miscommunication obviously. There are so many more sophisticated ways to cheat and this discrepancy is not one of them. NJMO, common sense, rules of the turf, maybe!!......Now the irony of my having to defend Rival (well sorta and sad based on how I feel and know about Rival) and the game of Blackjack!!
 

maphesto

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Location
Sweden
FFS'S, what is so hard to understand about the expectation of player and dealer Blackjacks??, repeat:

If, for example, 3000 hands of Blackjack were played , both player and dealer blackjacks dealt expectations are approx. 0.0476 per 3000 hands or 142.8 blackjacks.

Nash!

We know that you have an own language, but can´t you at least read our? :rolleyes:

I´ll take it slow and easy (yes, like the Whitesnake song)

1. Tradition mentioned almost 3000 hands Blackjack

2. Pina, you, I and other members here realized that 19 out of 3000 is too few.

3. Tradition now told us that the 3000 hands was normal blackjack and the blackjack we ment was multihand blackjack.

3. Pina mentioned the 19 BJ out of almost 3000 hands and had clearly missed the fact that Tradition had corrected us with the number 3000.

4. I made this post right after a quote from Pina where she mentions the 3000:

Those 19 BJ wasn´t in the "normal blackjack".


5. Here is my answer to your question:

Nothing!

I have absolutely no problems with understanding that. I play Black Jack myself.
I only "corrected" the number from the earlier post.
 

NASHVEGAS

Banned User - flamming, disrespecting admin,
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
MERS
Nash!

We know that you have an own language, but can´t you at least read our? :rolleyes:

5. Here is my answer to your question:

Nothing!
Agreed and btw, I was not directing my prior post at anyone specifically, Maphesto!!:thumbsup:..........I have been out of reach the last week or so and still need to read the last 10 or so posts (as mentioned) before I post again. Just glancing though I certainly do not need to rehash ethics, fraud, misrepresentaion and how it has consistently shows up time and time again with Rival.

Before I went out of touch this week I had reviewed all my subject Rival PM's to Bryan which he labeled "cryptic" in a defensive reply post in this thread. Before posting as I previously mentioned, I will probably forward all to Bryan for his thoughts and review again but with a few exceptions, the PM's are spot on. Cryptic, Master of your Domain and such, no way!! Self absorbed conflicts of interest, double standards and similar when you get so many genres together on a forum, well all is to be expected! Courts may be an improvement and one's only true attempt of vindication. Carry On!
 

tradition

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Location
malta
Sorry but in all cases, you cannot count proportion of blackjack made on its 3000 mentionned total hands because the 19 BJ found out don't take in consideration hands paid properly after 2010-03-27 on Blackjack Multi-Hand Game.

More, the 19 BJ list provided include normal and multi hand BJ since 20th february, but do not forget that normal blackjack has been repaired about 2010-02-22, so all hands played later than 22th february have been paid correctly.

If i gave you total hands played during march at blackajack games, it wasn't for you try to calculate how many blackjacks players made... The only thing that is absolutely certain is my payout. In order to calculate payouts, there are some calculations to do but it's not possible without having all elements.

So, here you are payouts for these games :

Normal BJ - April : 90.63%
Multi hands BJ - April : 100.10%

For April, payout is not yet definitive, of course. Regarding other months :

Normal BJ - March : 109.67%
Multi hands BJ - March : 95.46%

Normal BJ - February : 92.96%
Multi hands BJ - February : 93.53%

Normal BJ - January : 93.59%
Multi hands BJ - January : 101.62%

Normal BJ - December : 104.04%
Multi hands BJ - December : 88.19%
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
Is it not possible for Tradition to say how many hands were played that yielded the 19 Blackjacks in question. Should be a simple answer really.
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
webmeister
PABnonaccred
CAG
MM
Joined
Aug 25, 2004
Location
Bexhill on sea, England
And oh the irony of mathematical BJ determinations that can be determined. Nevermind, a higher level of cheating where all mathematical determinations are simply labeled a glitch, malfunction, and/or with an officially accepted KK endorsed apology by a casino rep. (sorry KK but I do not get this apology thing or actually I do;)), seems to excuse the inexcusable aka double standards.
Sorry, but I haven't got the faintest idea what you are talking about...? :confused:

KK
 

maphesto

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Location
Sweden
After a very expensive education I have a masters degree on NASH speak. :D

Maybe he means that cheating from the casinos side sometimes can be explained as a glitch..

And he mentions KK which means that he might remember that you once (twice?) have explained something from a Rival casino as a glitch.

That´s my theory.:cool:
 
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