Topgame Slots - Rogue software?

jan.strydom

Dormant account
Topgame Official Response

To all concerned

Please once again accept our sincere apology for this whole issue. We apologize to the players and to our operators, its affiliates and to all members of the forum.
As a platform software supplier, we never had any intention to mislead or to create a scenario where a player could not win the Jackpot. We know the industry well and as a new provider, understand more than most the importance of credibility and transparency.

There is currently a lot of confusion related to the games in question as the games were pulled and put back on the same day, except for the jackpot games where the glitch is and that the wilds did not appear in the lines correctly. Please understand that in the rest of the non Jackpot games the wilds in line 1 and 5 are not relevant at all and only reflect in the Jackpot game which is currently being repaired. The game will be returned as soon as possible for players to enjoy. I want to also ensure players that the current payout is at 96.7% reflecting a very decent and above average payout percentage.

We are also currently in the process being tested by TST and will share the outcome very soon. Certificates will be posted on all operator websites.

As a final goodwill gesture, Topgame offers all players concerned a return of all deposits and where we believe the players were compromised, a 100% return and some goodwill comps. Our technical team will in the next days proceed with the refunds on a player by player basis.

Also note that I personally only represent Topgame and not Rome or any other of our current Casinos.

Please once more accept our true and sincere apology for the software bug, also for the slow response but promise to stand by our operators and players 100%
.
Contact me personally at [email protected] related to any query.

Jonathan
Topgame
 

daera

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 24, 2001
Location
USA
Hi Rusty,

I don't disagree with your post at all. This could have been handled better in a million ways.

Just stating something I happen to know first hand, that when you're new to forums it's easy to say things that can really upset people while not having any idea what you've said or done wrong at the time.

And fyi, I don't know Jonathan at all, except from his posts on the forums.
 

Crackpotbaby

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 12, 2009
Location
In The Land of The Truth
If someone doesn't have much experience posting in these forums, and try to jump into a forum like this over a problem/complicated thread without having any real forum interaction experience... I can see how it can be easy to get overwhelmed, stressed out, take things the wrong way, resulting in responding very poorly.

I don't think Jonathan's responses would have been the same had he been a savvy forum poster. And I do think that sometimes people can look guilty of things they aren't guilty of, just because of the way they mis-word their forum replies.

This is a very serious issue, of course. But there's been new game bugs/serious errors at MGS and RTG brands many times. The problem isn't that we found a problem with a game. It's a problem if after communicating the error, it's not properly handled. This obviously wasn't handled well at all.

In my opinion, I don't think this all adds up to intentions to defraud players, or lack of respect for privacy, or lack of integrity. I think this situation has escalated because of Jonathan's lack of understanding that being a new software, or any new casino, they haven't earned anyone's trust yet. And the only way to earn it is to be very careful with the words he uses in his communication, and the actions he takes to back-up those words.

Everyone really came down hard on this. Maybe after Jonathan re-reads things, he might see that had he responded differently, and acted on this issue immediately, things would never have gotten to this point.




I happen to appreciate your perspective here. :) It may not be popular, but there's nothing wrong with what you had stated.
 

jas2587

Ueber Meister
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Location
FL
To all concerned

Please once again accept our sincere apology for this whole issue. We apologize to the players and to our operators, its affiliates and to all members of the forum.
As a platform software supplier, we never had any intention to mislead or to create a scenario where a player could not win the Jackpot. We know the industry well and as a new provider, understand more than most the importance of credibility and transparency.

There is currently a lot of confusion related to the games in question as the games were pulled and put back on the same day, except for the jackpot games where the glitch is and that the wilds did not appear in the lines correctly. Please understand that in the rest of the non Jackpot games the wilds in line 1 and 5 are not relevant at all and only reflect in the Jackpot game which is currently being repaired. The game will be returned as soon as possible for players to enjoy. I want to also ensure players that the current payout is at 96.7% reflecting a very decent and above average payout percentage.

We are also currently in the process being tested by TST and will share the outcome very soon. Certificates will be posted on all operator websites.

As a final goodwill gesture, Topgame offers all players concerned a return of all deposits and where we believe the players were compromised, a 100% return and some goodwill comps. Our technical team will in the next days proceed with the refunds on a player by player basis.

Also note that I personally only represent Topgame and not Rome or any other of our current Casinos.

Please once more accept our true and sincere apology for the software bug, also for the slow response but promise to stand by our operators and players 100%
.
Contact me personally at [email protected] related to any query.

Jonathan
Topgame

an how are players supposed to get said refund an comps not all people come to CM yes there are a few in the world that dont come here so how is this process gonna be done?
Cindy
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
To all concerned

Please once again accept our sincere apology for this whole issue. We apologize to the players and to our operators, its affiliates and to all members of the forum.
As a platform software supplier, we never had any intention to mislead or to create a scenario where a player could not win the Jackpot. We know the industry well and as a new provider, understand more than most the importance of credibility and transparency.

There is currently a lot of confusion related to the games in question as the games were pulled and put back on the same day, except for the jackpot games where the glitch is and that the wilds did not appear in the lines correctly. Please understand that in the rest of the non Jackpot games the wilds in line 1 and 5 are not relevant at all and only reflect in the Jackpot game which is currently being repaired. The game will be returned as soon as possible for players to enjoy. I want to also ensure players that the current payout is at 96.7% reflecting a very decent and above average payout percentage.

We are also currently in the process being tested by TST and will share the outcome very soon. Certificates will be posted on all operator websites.

As a final goodwill gesture, Topgame offers all players concerned a return of all deposits and where we believe the players were compromised, a 100% return and some goodwill comps. Our technical team will in the next days proceed with the refunds on a player by player basis.

Also note that I personally only represent Topgame and not Rome or any other of our current Casinos.

Please once more accept our true and sincere apology for the software bug, also for the slow response but promise to stand by our operators and players 100%
.
Contact me personally at [email protected] related to any query.

Jonathan
Topgame

Nevertheless - it's a day late and a dollar short. Unacceptable - this should have been dealt with as soon as it was reported - not when players start freaking out in the fora.

Warning issued here:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/top-game-casinos.31847/
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
Bryan is obviously an SEO wizard. Warning was issued less than two hours ago, and already it's the fourth listing on page 2 Google. This forum is simply amazing.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


I'm on my way out, but wanted to say that I thought Rusty's post was great. It provides a very good overview of all the problems that need to be addressed.
 

jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
Good summary, CM.

I'm still trying to get my head around what possible technology glitch could be responsible for the still mysterious disappearance of these Wilds.

You're right to be astonished at the time it took for the statement by Jan.Strydom to appear today (19 June).

Reported at the end of May and yet the issue is still on fire - that doesn't look like effective and efficient crisis management, I'm afraid and there may be trust consequences for Top Game as a result.
 

ssd

Dormant Account
Joined
Oct 21, 2007
Location
Canada
First off I'd like to say thanks to Pinababy69 for bringing this issue from our forums to Casinomeister so that it got the proper attention it deserves. And of course I would like to thank Evelyn (Eviecakes) for bringing this problem out to the entire community. Without her post it might have gone on for quite sometime.

As of this morning Diable 13 is showing all wild symbols on all 5 reels so Top Game did fix that problem.

There are although a few unanswered questions for Jonathan most of them were already posed by Rusty and Pinababy69 like the question about the max bet a player needs to put down to win the jackpot. $45 a spin? Is this true?


Rick
CSR
 

Rusty

Banned User - repetitive flaming
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Location
Manchester UK
I'm on my way out, but wanted to say that I thought Rusty's post was great. It provides a very good overview of all the problems that need to be addressed.

Thanks Pina, I do believe there are still explanations and reassurances needed before many people can simply put this down to a glitch and poor PR and I would like to ask Jonathan some questions publicly and to add some detail onto his statement so that he can help us all understand exactly how this came about.


To all concerned

Please once again accept our sincere apology for this whole issue. We apologize to the players and to our operators, its affiliates and to all members of the forum.
As a platform software supplier, we never had any intention to mislead or to create a scenario where a player could not win the Jackpot. We know the industry well and as a new provider, understand more than most the importance of credibility and transparency.

There is currently a lot of confusion related to the games in question as the games were pulled and put back on the same day, except for the jackpot games where the glitch is and that the wilds did not appear in the lines correctly. Please understand that in the rest of the non Jackpot games the wilds in line 1 and 5 are not relevant at all and only reflect in the Jackpot game which is currently being repaired. The game will be returned as soon as possible for players to enjoy. I want to also ensure players that the current payout is at 96.7% reflecting a very decent and above average payout percentage.

We are also currently in the process being tested by TST and will share the outcome very soon. Certificates will be posted on all operator websites.

As a final goodwill gesture, Topgame offers all players concerned a return of all deposits and where we believe the players were compromised, a 100% return and some goodwill comps. Our technical team will in the next days proceed with the refunds on a player by player basis.

Also note that I personally only represent Topgame and not Rome or any other of our current Casinos.

Please once more accept our true and sincere apology for the software bug, also for the slow response but promise to stand by our operators and players 100%
.
Contact me personally at [email protected] related to any query.

Jonathan
Topgame


Hi Jonathan,
Thank you for realising the importance of communicating properly with forum members (Your customers/players and business partners/affiliates)
I am sure David from ThebesCasino appreciates it too.

As I stated at the head of this post there are still some things I am unclear on that you may well be able to help me with for which I would be grateful.

When you state;
As a platform software supplier, we never had any intention to mislead or to create a scenario where a player could not win the Jackpot

You are not saying this situation developed out of nowhere I am sure so
can you tell us exactly what the intention behind modifying this game/s was?

The game/s functioned normally for some considerable time so there needed to be a deliberate intention to change something within the game to cause the Wilds from reel 1 and 5 to be removed.
If this removal of the wilds was a software bug caused by a modification to the game can you please explain how this came about?

Also could you inform as to how fewer reel stop positions (no wild) on reels 1 and 5 did not cause the game to crash but to apparently function normally including the correct award of prizes (except the Jackpot)
Do these slots function as bingo games rather than slots where prizes are preselected and the result displayed graphically rather than awarded for winning combinations from the 5 reel stop positions?

So what was the original motive to change the game/s and how did these changes cause the missing Wilds?
You continued.
We know the industry well and as a new provider, understand more than most the importance of credibility and transparency.

Again altering gameplay mechanics on a game that is live (especially Jackpot slots!) without the players knowledge is unethical in my view and anything but transparent but I realise you are not the only software provider that believes players should be kept in the dark.

Understand more than most the importance of credibility and transparency?
Empty statements with false sentiment will not wash.
(No wash no transparent :oops:)
If Topgame or any other software provider truly wants to be transparent then drop me line - I will make you crystal clear and squeaky clean!

There is currently a lot of confusion related to the games in question as the games were pulled and put back on the same day, except for the jackpot games where the glitch is and that the wilds did not appear in the lines correctly.

Why were the other games (Non Jackpot) pulled if they did not suffer from the same mysterious glitch?
the wilds did not appear in the lines correctly.
Bit of an understatement if I may say so since they did not appear at all because they were missing.

Can you confirm that the Jackpot totals will be the same as when the games were pulled when they are reintroduced?

Please understand that in the rest of the non Jackpot games the wilds in line 1 and 5 are not relevant at all and only reflect in the Jackpot game which is currently being repaired. The game will be returned as soon as possible for players to enjoy. I want to also ensure players that the current payout is at 96.7% reflecting a very decent and above average payout percentage.

Is that 96.7% with or without the Wilds on reels 1 and 5 or is your software designed in such a way it makes no difference?

We are also currently in the process being tested by TST and will share the outcome very soon. Certificates will be posted on all operator websites.

I assume this testing was not done previously then.
Can you confirm all games on your platform are being tested and not just the Jackpot games?

As a final goodwill gesture, Topgame offers all players concerned a return of all deposits and where we believe the players were compromised, a 100% return and some goodwill comps. Our technical team will in the next days proceed with the refunds on a player by player basis.

That is really the First positive thing to come out of this.
Are you going to be proactive in contacting affected players, doing all you can to contact them I mean, rather than just addressing those that contact you?

What are Topgame doing about the ludicrously high wagers required for a player to be eligible for a Jackpot - $45 and $65 a spin I believe?

It seems some players (probably many) are playing these Jackpot slots under the misapprehension they could win it on lower stakes.
Will you making extra clear the requirements for a Jackpot win?
Incidentally What is the prize for 5 Wilds on a winline that does not award the progressive Jackpot?

Sorry for so many questions and such a long post Jonathan but if you could answer each comment and question comprehensively it would be appreciated by all and will no doubt save us both some time in the future.
 
Last edited:

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Good summary, CM.

I'm still trying to get my head around what possible technology glitch could be responsible for the still mysterious disappearance of these Wilds.

You're right to be astonished at the time it took for the statement by Jan.Strydom to appear today (19 June).

Reported at the end of May and yet the issue is still on fire - that doesn't look like effective and efficient crisis management, I'm afraid and there may be trust consequences for Top Game as a result.

I can think of one. When Top Game started out, their games were criticised for being very "boring". Top Game have continually tweaked these games so as to make them more interesting.

One way of making games more interesting is to increase the variance. This can be done by altering the reel strips. Perhaps there was an intention to tweak these games, but the WRONG symbol was removed, and since there is only ONE wild, removing it has catastrophic consequences. The intent may have been to remove a different symbol, one that appears more than once, and balance this by tweaking the paytable, or the bonus round.

The suggestion that the removal of the wilds does NOT affect the payout of the non-jackpot version is consistent with Rusty's suggestion that they work like "bingo slots". If a 5 of a kind were determined, the software, bereft of wilds on reels 1 & 5, would simply use the normal symbol instead. It MAY even credit the win, but not display correctly, rather than crashing altogether.

When Mega Moolah had the error in the jackpot wheel, it did NOT crash, but incorrectly displayed the wrong segment. Unfortunately, it was the segment for the "MEGA" jackpot that was selected for display (because latter frames showing the move onward to the "mini" were missing), and created quite a stir.

It should be possible to analyze the reel strips of a simple Top Game slot, and run it through a slot analyzer. If this shows the true UNWEIGHTED payout, based on reelstrips, to be way out of line of the 96% quoted, then we would have evidence that Top Game slots are NOT what they seem.

Stating that the progressive jackpot of some $192K was simply "removed" rather than won is even MORE worrying. Many of those progressives are large, and what guarantee is there that others will not simply be "removed" at the whim of Top Game. Since this removal was BEFORE Top Game knew of the problem with the missing wilds, there has to be another reason, but thinking up a LEGITIMATE one that will convince players that Top Game can be trusted is going to be a problem.
If Top Game say it WAS the problem with the missing wilds that prompted the removal of the progressive, Top Game then have the problem of explaining why they were effectively LYING to players about the problem merely being down to "internet connections".
 

Rebel2k5

Banned User
Joined
Aug 30, 2007
Location
My House
I figured I would post this too. I tried to get this resolved, but it's been 9 days and it doesn't seem to be working.

I was playing blackjack on my first deposit and was getting to my last $120 or so. I played two hands at once, each for $50 a bet.

One hand was dealt a 19, and the other 11. The dealer was showing an 8. I decided to gamble and went to see if I could double down for less on the 11 since I only had $20 left.

I went to double down, then it said I didn't have enough funds. Whatever, guess I can't do it for less. So I clicked cancel, and the blackjack game exited. I went back to blackjack, and it wouldn't let me resume. It only showed my prior hand to that.

So, I went into my game history and saw it was saved there. It shows I lost $100 to the dealers 8. It won't show what the dealer had, so obviously it's an error on the software part. Don't want to call it rogue yet, but if this software is already getting this many complaints, I wouldn't be surprised.

Anyways, heres a screenshot of the hand.

lostmoney.jpg
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
With all due respect to David from Thebes (who seems the only rep involved being genuine and upfront), why would anyone play at any TopGame site after reading this????

I wouldnt even deposit SOMEONE ELSES money with any of them.

David - my advice to you mate is take Thebes over to RTG or MGS or something before TopGame ruin your brand any further.
 

Rusty

Banned User - repetitive flaming
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Location
Manchester UK
With all due respect to David from Thebes (who seems the only rep involved being genuine and upfront), why would anyone play at any TopGame site after reading this????

I wouldnt even deposit SOMEONE ELSES money with any of them.

David - my advice to you mate is take Thebes over to RTG or MGS or something before TopGame ruin your brand any further.

In the absence of any further response or explanation from Topgame I am afraid I have to agree with you.

No explanation as to why the Jackpot games were being tampered with.

No explanation as to how these changes caused the missing Wilds.

No explanation (If Pinababy's timeline is correct) as to why the Jackpot was removed before the games were removed because of the fault.

No explanation as to how the RTP is calculated - are these Bingo slots where prizes are preselected and the slot reels merely a graphic representation of the result and not true slots?

No explanation as to why the stakes need to be so ludicrously high to win a Jackpot - $45 and $65 a spin.

No explanation as to what 5 Wild symbols pay if the game is not played at $45 and $65 a spin. -It appears this may be nothing!

No explanation or mock screenshot provided of the 5 Wilds that a player hit on a 45c bet but only won under $5 from other combinations.

No explanation as to when the Jackpot that was removed will be reinstated to the Jackpot game. (Just a promise it will)

Readers may well have a few more of their own but when so many very important questions that actually challenge the integrity of the software and its provider go unanswered then we are left to draw our own conclusions as to why.
The Casinomeister warning should be very well noted.
 

Mavin1

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Location
Arizona
Player Privacy

to answer

1. we responded the day we received a notification - I personally don't frequent these forums for the simple reason that I would not get any work done - with respect!

2. please this is out of proportion - emails are for everybody to see today.

3. firstly the progressive jackpot was removed from the game and not won.

4. I believe we shall take look at every player related and take the proper action as stated above but for you to dictate to us what to do is unacceptable, we are a professional operation doing our best to service our product.


I believe we have more than satisfied the players issue and are sure that she will be a good ambassador for Topgame's Casino's.

to close - We as a fairly new gaming software supplier are going out of our way to ensure proper games, payout ratio's and providing a service to our operators(currently 22) we certainly have some issues to resolve but as we are a serious company with many years of combined online gaming experience, We are sure to prevail and give many players from around the world a decent gaming experience - bear with us and see.

thank you

Jonathan
Topgame

PS: the games in question will be up as soon as possible with the fixes in place.

2. please this is out of proportion - emails are for everybody to see today.

I have printed out and reviewed their own rules and rule 27 states: Rome casino is dedicated to the privacy of it's players and as such will only publish the first name and last initial of the player when required to do so.
So if they follow their own rules, players personal information is confidential. I thank those of you who snipped that info.
 

AussieDave

Banned User
Joined
Dec 24, 2005
Location
Australia
<derail>

I always miss the juicy threads...How about sending out special mailers CM for threads like this :D

</derail>


Cheers
T
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
In the absence of any further response or explanation from Topgame I am afraid I have to agree with you.

No explanation as to why the Jackpot games were being tampered with.

No explanation as to how these changes caused the missing Wilds.

No explanation (If Pinababy's timeline is correct) as to why the Jackpot was removed before the games were removed because of the fault.

No explanation as to how the RTP is calculated - are these Bingo slots where prizes are preselected and the slot reels merely a graphic representation of the result and not true slots?

No explanation as to why the stakes need to be so ludicrously high to win a Jackpot - $45 and $65 a spin.

No explanation as to what 5 Wild symbols pay if the game is not played at $45 and $65 a spin. -It appears this may be nothing!

No explanation or mock screenshot provided of the 5 Wilds that a player hit on a 45c bet but only won under $5 from other combinations.

No explanation as to when the Jackpot that was removed will be reinstated to the Jackpot game. (Just a promise it will)

Readers may well have a few more of their own but when so many very important questions that actually challenge the integrity of the software and its provider go unanswered then we are left to draw our own conclusions as to why.
The Casinomeister warning should be very well noted.

And here we are all this time later....and STILL no answers to these questions. Personally, I want to know WHY the Progressive Jackpot of $192,000 was removed in the first place...when the software supplier denies any knowledge of game malfunction during that time. And has it been reinstated IN FULL?

Also, where is the screenshot of the player who got five wilds on a game, but got no payout for the five wilds? And, an explanation for a progressive jackpot that can only be won a $45 bet (for the nine line slot), and a $65 bet (for the 13 line slot).

Answers to all of Rusty's questions would be a great start.
 

me_and_ed

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
CAG
MM
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Location
Vancouver
And here we are all this time later....and STILL no answers to these questions. Personally, I want to know WHY the Progressive Jackpot of $192,000 was removed in the first place...when the software supplier denies any knowledge of game malfunction during that time. And has it been reinstated IN FULL?

Also, where is the screenshot of the player who got five wilds on a game, but got no payout for the five wilds? And, an explanation for a progressive jackpot that can only be won a $45 bet (for the nine line slot), and a $65 bet (for the 13 line slot).

Answers to all of Rusty's questions would be a great start.

I doubt very highly if TG will answer anybodies questions, they have yet to stand up, I can hear these little voices from a makeshift basement HQ, we will just let the casino's take the bullets, its worked so far.
 

killy33

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 23, 2009
Location
Argentina Buenos aires
And here we are all this time later....and STILL no answers to these questions. Personally, I want to know WHY the Progressive Jackpot of $192,000 was removed in the first place...when the software supplier denies any knowledge of game malfunction during that time. And has it been reinstated IN FULL?

Also, where is the screenshot of the player who got five wilds on a game, but got no payout for the five wilds? And, an explanation for a progressive jackpot that can only be won a $45 bet (for the nine line slot), and a $65 bet (for the 13 line slot).

Answers to all of Rusty's questions would be a great start.


I think exactly like you:

I want to know WHY the Progressive Jackpot of $192,000 was removed in the first place...when the software supplier denies any knowledge of game malfunction during that time. And has it been reinstated IN FULL?

Everything you said has a lot of sense :lolup:
 

bb28

Dormant Account
Joined
Nov 18, 2006
Location
US
Bump

We still do not have the answers that have been asked many times and in many ways.
The issues are just as important as they were when this thread was started, so how about it?
 

jas2587

Ueber Meister
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Location
FL
I know 1 of the Top Game casino reps posted some where in this forum that the jackpot that was taken from " Douguies Delights " was in fact added to another game

I will find it might take me a few days to find it but I will unless after they posted it they deleted it but I know for a fact that I read it

Cindy
 

RomeCasino

Banned User -violation of forum policies of i-Gami
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Location
Costa Rica
From Noah at Rome Casino

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/rome-casino-top-game-support-disaster.31711/

post 129

this is the closest I can find about where the missing jackpot went I know there is still a post that says it was actually put on a certain game


Cindy

Hi Cindy,

I think you will see in the response by the Thebes representative that he too said there was no indication the jackpot amount was removed, but that the jackpot game was. To this date I still have found no evidence of the jackpot amount actually being removed from the game while the game was allowed to continue without it.

Kind Regards,

Noan
 

jas2587

Ueber Meister
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Location
FL
Hi Cindy,

I think you will see in the response by the Thebes representative that he too said there was no indication the jackpot amount was removed, but that the jackpot game was. To this date I still have found no evidence of the jackpot amount actually being removed from the game while the game was allowed to continue without it.

Kind Regards,

Noan

Hiya Noah<
what he says is Prior """""No explanation (If Pinababy's timeline is correct) as to why the Jackpot was removed before the games were removed because of the fault.

As far as I am aware the jackpot was not removed prior to the games being removed however I could be wrong here and this issue I still have to confirm. As TG have stated testing by TST is underway and we are eagerly awaiting the results.""""

No explanation as to when the Jackpot that was removed will be reinstated to the Jackpot game. (Just a promise it will)

Rusty's post #130

""""" Also we agree on the response from Topgame being unprofessional and I thank you David for your response and also informing us that One of the Jackpots has now been reinstated."""""""

an it is very odd that No 1 can say where $192,000 went


Cindy
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top