Top Game Missing Jackpot Questions

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
Hi everyone,

I just wanted to make it clear since I do not wish to cause any misconfusion or make statements that are open to different interpretations and that is that all money contributed to a progressive jackpot that was discontinued was in fact paid back to the players at the time which I am sure some of you will recall.

When I used the word affected I meant anyone who played those games was reimbursed even those not playing maxbet/maxlines as after all each spin does contribute to the progressive.

This is back when I was casino manager for Thebes Casino a position I left to take up the position of representative for TG which I announced on Meister along with my motivation(s) for doing so.

There was some thought of distributing the money across the other progressive jackpot games but it was decided that this was the better solution and personally I would have to agree.


Kind Regards



David

So you paid back the players who played games with missing symbols, with their own money?

Of course you should have distributed the money across the other jackpot games. That's how it's done.

Whatever "compensation" you made to players was your/Topgame's responsibility, for allowing them to play games that were malfunctioning for a month at least. So you're saying now that back in June when you compensated affected players for this...you used funds that they had already contributed to the progressive jackpots, rather than pay them from your own pockets? We don't even know how many people you actually compensated, do we? We're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars in progressive contributions over how long? Did you email your ENTIRE database, or only compensate those who were aware of the malfunctioning games via message boards, etc. and who contacted you themselves?

How convenient that eight months after we've been asking where this money went to....this is the explanation. That it was used as COMPENSATION for faulty software. Absolutely unbelievable. And why didn't someone say this back in June, when we kept asking over and over....where's the money from Dougie's Delights?

The compensation made to players was supposed to be because symbols were missing from the reels, I would assume thus changing the RTP drastically. Therefore no one who played the affected games actually got anywhere near a fair game. Now we find out you didn't compensate them for that at all. Topgame is saying they simply returned progressive contributions? And used progressive contributions to return deposits?

I wonder if amounts you popped into the player's accounts as payback had a WR attached to it?

Jas...you played the game Dougie's Delights I think right? How much compensation did you get?

I really think I've heard it all now. That progressive money should have been kept separate, not used as part of the day to day operating capital, to pay players who were ripped off playing gaffed software for a month at least. Over 300K of compensation you guys paid back? Yeah okay. No wonder you guys made a business decision to not reinstate those jackpot games....ha!!

I'm with me_and_ed...I'm done with them and done with this.

EDIT: Maphesto, please PAB on that and let Max handle it. I'd like to hear an answer on it as well...but I would also like to see you get your money/winnings.
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
You know....I just went back and glanced through the original thread and lo and behold....found the jackpot amounts that Jas posted on June 18th. Dougie's Delights was removed on May 21st according to Topgame with a progressive jackpot of $192,000. Look at what Fandango (the other discontinued game) was sitting at:

these have jackpots
Bingo Slot 25 lines 81,353.05
Crazy Jungle 15 lines 494,429.20
Dioblo 13 lines 152,348.31
Fandago 15 line 460,448.67
Fruit Slots 25 lines 404,429.20
Sweet Surprise 25 lines 460,448.68

$460,000!!! :eek:

So that's approximately $650,000 between the two games....of PLAYER'S contributions. Forget my conservative estimate of 300K plus!! And you're telling us that every penny of that 650K (minus the original seed money) was returned to players? :rolleyes:

And what about the players who played the games and contributed to the progressives while they WERE functioning correctly? Obviously you didn't pay back every single player who EVER played those games, since their inception...only the ones who played the malfunctioning variety. So those progressive contributions were used as well? The whole kit and caboodle. My God!!

And don't forget, Dougie's Delights Jackpot game was removed on May 21st...yet Topgame was INSISTENT that all games were functioning correctly....right up until June 17th...when they couldn't deny it anymore..and had to pull all the affected games.

Okay, I really am done. No need to even reply anymore David, I do appreciate you taking the time to come and post. At least I can put this one to rest in my mind now.
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
I wanted to highlight how screwed up this whole Progressive Jackpot situation is at Topgame. In October, they say this Wendell B. won the 2.8 Million dollar jackpot at Crystal Spin Casino. I had asked earlier in the thread if she got paid the whole lump sum in one payment, as ANY reputable casino would do. After all, this isn't money coming from the casino's pocket directly right? It is player contributions from each and every spin on Crazy Jungle, at each and every Topgame casino. And it should be pooled, and kept in a separate fund....I would assume by the software supplier. When it's won...bang...it gets paid.

But no. Not with these guys. Reminds me of the lady Sylvia P. (?) who won the progressive at the Playtech casino, and ended up only getting part of it...because she didn't want to wait 20 years to collect all her moolah. So she took a reduced amount, lump sum payment.

I was reading some gaming news, and came across the "announcement" of Wendell B.'s win, at another site. So just for shits and giggles, I took a quick look at Crystal Spin's website...more specifically their withdrawal policies. Taken from their website:

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

There is no limit to the amount a player can withdraw but there is a maximum amount that can be withdrawn in one week. For any withdrawal higher than $2500, an amount of $2500 will be paid to you once a week, upon your withdrawal request, until the full amount of your withdrawal request is paid. The same policy applies also to withdrawals of progressive jackpots.

$2,500 a week, including progessives. You know how long it will take her to collect her 2.8 million dollars, if she ever does? 1,120 weeks or 21.53 years...ha ha. Let's see, she won in October of 2009. That should make her final payment due sometime in the spring of the year 2030. Hope she's a young gal, and not a senior citizen. And who here really believes that Topgame will still be around 21 years from now?

Also, the money is paid out $2,500 per week, upon your withdrawal request. In other words, the balance sits in your casino account, and you have to go and manually request the $2,500 withdrawal every week. Gee, wonder why they do it that way? :rolleyes:

Oh, and one other thing. Any financial wizards here who want to calculate how much interest Topgame earns on that 2.8 million of PLAYER'S money over the next 21 years? I don't have a clue, but I bet it's a hefty sum. It should be sitting in Wendell B.'s account earning interest...but not with these guys.

Just as with the Playtech issue...this is as crooked as it gets. And now I know why the Topgame rep skipped over the question re: payment when I asked it earlier.

It is just too easy for these casinos to screw with the progressive jackpots...and is a large part of the reason why I don't play them, period. If I were to play any, I would stick to Microgaming. Should I ever get lucky and win a million plus, I KNOW that within a few days or a week..that money is gonna be sitting in my bank account earning interest. Not in MG's account, so they can dole it out to me as they see fit. And using it to their own benefit in the interim.

If anyone needed another reason to NOT play at any Topgame clipjoint...here you have it.
 

De Beuker

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Location
Netherlands
I wanted to highlight how screwed up this whole Progressive Jackpot situation is at Topgame. In October, they say this Wendell B. won the 2.8 Million dollar jackpot at Crystal Spin Casino. I had asked earlier in the thread if she got paid the whole lump sum in one payment, as ANY reputable casino would do. After all, this isn't money coming from the casino's pocket directly right? It is player contributions from each and every spin on Crazy Jungle, at each and every Topgame casino. And it should be pooled, and kept in a separate fund....I would assume by the software supplier. When it's won...bang...it gets paid.

But no. Not with these guys. Reminds me of the lady Sylvia P. (?) who won the progressive at the Playtech casino, and ended up only getting part of it...because she didn't want to wait 20 years to collect all her moolah. So she took a reduced amount, lump sum payment.

I was reading some gaming news, and came across the "announcement" of Wendell B.'s win, at another site. So just for shits and giggles, I took a quick look at Crystal Spin's website...more specifically their withdrawal policies. Taken from their website:

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)



$2,500 a week, including progessives. You know how long it will take her to collect her 2.8 million dollars, if she ever does? 1,120 weeks or 21.53 years...ha ha. Let's see, she won in October of 2009. That should make her final payment due sometime in the spring of the year 2030. Hope she's a young gal, and not a senior citizen. And who here really believes that Topgame will still be around 21 years from now?

Also, the money is paid out $2,500 per week, upon your withdrawal request. In other words, the balance sits in your casino account, and you have to go and manually request the $2,500 withdrawal every week. Gee, wonder why they do it that way? :rolleyes:

Oh, and one other thing. Any financial wizards here who want to calculate how much interest Topgame earns on that 2.8 million of PLAYER'S money over the next 21 years? I don't have a clue, but I bet it's a hefty sum. It should be sitting in Wendell B.'s account earning interest...but not with these guys.

Just as with the Playtech issue...this is as crooked as it gets. And now I know why the Topgame rep skipped over the question re: payment when I asked it earlier.

It is just too easy for these casinos to screw with the progressive jackpots...and is a large part of the reason why I don't play them, period. If I were to play any, I would stick to Microgaming. Should I ever get lucky and win a million plus, I KNOW that within a few days or a week..that money is gonna be sitting in my bank account earning interest. Not in MG's account, so they can dole it out to me as they see fit. And using it to their own benefit in the interim.

If anyone needed another reason to NOT play at any Topgame clipjoint...here you have it.

Holy crap, I never thought about it this way, its insane.
Thanks for explaining this Pinababy.

About the interest, say they can get 4% a year over 2.8 million, that would be $28.000 x 4 = $112.000 a year.
Thats $2154 interest per week!:eek2:
Max. withdrawl is $2500 a week!
So paying out a progressive would in fact hardly cost them anything...
This way these progressives are a very nice cashcow!!
 

NASHVEGAS

Banned User - flamming, disrespecting admin,
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
MERS
Holy crap, I never thought about it this way, its insane.
Thanks for explaining this Pinababy.

About the interest, say they can get 4% a year over 2.8 million, that would be $28.000 x 4 = $112.000 a year.
Thats $2154 interest per week!:eek2:
Max. withdrawl is $2500 a week!
So paying out a progressive would in fact hardly cost them anything...
This way these progressives are a very nice cashcow!!
Great work, Lisa...........I know it takes a lot of time to expose these hoaxes:thumbsup:!

Using the Rule of 72 and assuming an average balance outstanding (the avg. amount the hoaxers withhold or owe the winner, yeah right, oh yeah I almost forgot in escrow:rolleyes:) of $2.4 to $2.6 million over ~ 12 to 18 years, you can estimate the number of years it will take for the $2.4 to $2.6 to double (and repeat doubling) by simply taking 72 and dividing by the assumed avg. annual return!

72/4%, ~ every 18 years, then repeats
72/7% ~ every 10 years, " "
72/10% ~ every 7.2 years, " "

Assuming 10%, the ~ historical avg. annual return for the US stock market, the hoaxers will have approx. $10 million on hand in 14.4 years that the winner could have possibly had on hand.

Wonder why it is a joke to accredit any casino that pays in any type of installment???? It is criminal whether small amounts or large amounts and to date not one of Bryan's justifications holds water except, jmo!!
 

topgame

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Location
behind my pc
Hi everyone,

Whilst I can fully understand that not everyone or anyone for that matter will always agree with my answers I most definitely do not shirk from answering any questions.

Statements such as "And now I know why the Topgame rep skipped over the question re: payment when I asked it earlier." would imply in fact that I tend to 'ignore' having to answer questions that I or TG do apparently "not like" and to be honest I think this is entirely untrue.

Im happy to answer any questions including the 2.8 million dollar jackpot and will pass your questions on to the right people to get you those answers in good time even though in this case I believe it to be more of an operator issue than a platform one.


Kind Regards


David
 

maphesto

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Location
Sweden
even though in this case I believe it to be more of an operator issue than a platform one.

All casinos using Top Game platform share these progressive jackpots. Even Gambling Lord Casino (the one that Top Game according to Wilson Brown no longer have business with). This makes it a platform issue.

Who is the operator in this case?

Is it Blefondia Holdings Ltd.?
 

Tengil

Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2006
Location
Finland
At 2500/week the NPV for the player with a discount rate of 5% the 2,8 million jackpot is 1,732419 million.

For those who want to calculate with a different discount rate:

i= ln disc.rate/52, in my example ln1,05/52

1-(1+i)^1120 =a
i

NPV= a x 2500

will see if I have motivation to calculate the value for the operator later this day.

Edit: just a quick calculation (may well be wrong) with an interest rate of 5% gave a value of 1,469896 million for the casino. Does not include any inflation corrections etc.
 
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topgame

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Location
behind my pc
Hi everyone,

Yes its true that in the terms and conditions of that casino it states that the maximum withdrawal is $2500 USD per week and that this applies to progressives as well.

However without going into specifics of payment (as that is a matter between the player, the casino and TG) I can assure you that it is definitely not TG policy to pay out progressives spread out over a long period of time as we too are obviously of the opinion that paying out a progessive at the rate of $2500 a week is ridiculous.

Kind Regards,


David
 

NASHVEGAS

Banned User - flamming, disrespecting admin,
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
MERS
Hi everyone,

Yes its true that in the terms and conditions of that casino it states that the maximum withdrawal is $2500 USD per week and that this applies to progressives as well.

However without going into specifics of payment (as that is a matter between the player, the casino and TG) I can assure you that it is definitely not TG policy to pay out progressives spread out over a long period of time as we too are obviously of the opinion that paying out a progessive at the rate of $2500 a week is ridiculous.

Kind Regards,


David
It is not ridiculous, it is a scam. Maybe one day, when and if, lol.
 

NASHVEGAS

Banned User - flamming, disrespecting admin,
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
MERS
At 2500/week the NPV for the player with a discount rate of 5% the 2,8 million jackpot is 1,732419 million.

For those who want to calculate with a different discount rate:

i= ln disc.rate/52, in my example ln1,05/52

1-(1+i)^1120 =a
i

NPV= a x 2500

will see if I have motivation to calculate the value for the operator later this day.

Edit: just a quick calculation (may well be wrong) with an interest rate of 5% gave a value of 1,469896 million for the casino. Does not include any inflation corrections etc.
Link for quick calculators for NPV and others including NPV for an Annuity
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


EDIT:might as well as post The Rule of 72 info. and calculator
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
 

silcnlayc

Just one more spin pleez!
PABaccred
PABnonaccred
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Location
Left Hungary
topgame Hi everyone,

Yes its true that in the terms and conditions of that casino it states that the maximum withdrawal is $2500 USD per week and that this applies to progressives as well.

However without going into specifics of payment (as that is a matter between the player, the casino and TG) I can assure you that it is definitely not TG policy to pay out progressives spread out over a long period of time as we too are obviously of the opinion that paying out a progessive at the rate of $2500 a week is ridiculous.

Kind Regards,


David
So why have this in the T&C's? Only reason a casino keeps these in there is to use it against a player. Period. Just as some Rivals are now coming around to the idea that it is NOT ok to have this in the T&C's so should Top Game. Remove it it to prove it. That you would not hold this against a player otherwise, saying it means NOTHING.

Just as a players is held to the T&C's, so should the casino...so either remove it, or admit that it is there just for the reason you say that you will not do....just because you feel it is ridiculous to hold a player to the minimum weekly withdrawals on a progressinve, does not mean you won't...remmeber , it is in the T&C's...so your word would hold no water if it was implemented...as long as it sits in the T&C's...

.
 

Tengil

Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2006
Location
Finland
Hi everyone,

Yes its true that in the terms and conditions of that casino it states that the maximum withdrawal is $2500 USD per week and that this applies to progressives as well.

However without going into specifics of payment (as that is a matter between the player, the casino and TG) I can assure you that it is definitely not TG policy to pay out progressives spread out over a long period of time as we too are obviously of the opinion that paying out a progessive at the rate of $2500 a week is ridiculous.

Kind Regards,


David

So is it you (TG) or the individual casino that pays out the progressive?

And the calc isnt really useful in this situation (assuming a payment of 2500/week) as the sum on which the interest is calculated on decreases by 2500/week.

E:Worth to note in my calculation of the casinos value I only calculated the cumulative amount of the interests for every week.
 

De Beuker

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Location
Netherlands
So is it you (TG) or the individual casino that pays out the progressive?

And the calc isnt really useful in this situation (assuming a payment of 2500/week) as the sum on which the interest is calculated on decreases by 2500/week.

Not really. As soon as the progressive is won, $2500 per week goes out of the pool, but ppl keep playing these progressives, so money will keep coming in also.
And that might be alot more than $2500 a week if a progressive builds up to 2.8 million in a year time..
 

Tengil

Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2006
Location
Finland
Not really. As soon as the progressive is won, $2500 per week goes out of the pool, but ppl keep playing these progressives, so money will keep coming in also.
And that might be alot more than $2500 a week if a progressive builds up to 2.8 million in a year time..

I assumed Playtech like scenario (Joyland fiasco) where the JP is payed to the casino which then pays it to the player.
E: Or the recent PartyCasino JP winner who has already played back 2 million in one month after his close to 5 million win in Dec 09. They have a wd limit of 100k/month.
 

NASHVEGAS

Banned User - flamming, disrespecting admin,
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
MERS
Not really. As soon as the progressive is won, $2500 per week goes out of the pool, but ppl keep playing these progressives, so money will keep coming in also.
And that might be alot more than $2500 a week if a progressive builds up to 2.8 million in a year time..
Nice:thumbsup:[email protected] all, it is no secret that many assumptions are made in the posted calculations including taxes,inflation,some calculating the present value of an annuity annually with weekly disbursements,leverage,currency,hedging,blah blah but the point is crystal clear that the con game goes on and on.

Phuck TandC's, the player doesn't obey them on credit cards, but for casinos , go ahead and worship, bow while being scammed.........Pathetic and the player is just as responsible as these reps. who are all fingers. Afterall words are cheap or actually free.

The FBI is aware of the scams, they just will not do anything as they consider the player in the US do be engaging in an illegal activity so what happens if it becomes legal. Hopefully, some want to find out.
 

thelawnet

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
UK
At 2500/week the NPV for the player with a discount rate of 5% the 2,8 million jackpot is 1,732419 million.

For those who want to calculate with a different discount rate:

i= ln disc.rate/52, in my example ln1,05/52

1-(1+i)^1120 =a
ie

NPV= a x 2500

will see if I have motivation to calculate the value for the operator later this day.

Edit: just a quick calculation (may well be wrong) with an interest rate of 5% gave a value of 1,469896 million for the casino. Does not include any inflation corrections etc.

5%? You must be joking.

The player is in a MUCH worse position than say a bond holder, and I would expect a bond holder to demand more like 10% to lend money to Topgame.

If you said 15%, that would be more appropriate for modelling the value of the jackpot to the player on such a basis.
 

Tengil

Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2006
Location
Finland
5%? You must be joking.

The player is in a MUCH worse position than say a bond holder, and I would expect a bond holder to demand more like 10% to lend money to Topgame.

If you said 15%, that would be more appropriate for modelling the value of the jackpot to the player on such a basis.

5% is usually used in examples altough I agree that one would be in a bad position so the discount rate should probably be well over 20%. So the "true" NPV of a JP IF paid only in 2500 weekly installments would be closer to half a million.

And my formula contains an error I just noticed, there should be a minus before 1120 (^-1120).
 
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NASHVEGAS

Banned User - flamming, disrespecting admin,
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
MERS
5%? You must be joking.

The player is in a MUCH worse position than say a bond holder, and I would expect a bond holder to demand more like 10%to lend money to Topgame.

If you said 15%, that would be more appropriate for modelling the value of the jackpot to the player on such a basis.
The slammer boys, Milken nor Boesky with their A-Game could not sell this junk at any yield.
 

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