Tinfoil hat time ⏲️

[mcgameboy]

I think people forget the effect that volatility has. There has been a MASSIVE uptick in the volatility of games recently. People want bigger and bigger wins and so the majority of games now have huge volatility.

Think back, most older games had max wins of 1000x. Now days, you'll be hard pressed to find a game with a max win of less than 10000x. Most seem to be 20000x or more.

This means you will go on longer losing streaks. It also works in the Casino's favour, because most of us have limited funds, so we'll bust out and won't be able to continue until we hit 'the big one', so may people will run a personal RTP far below the TRTP, just because they're unable to afford enough spins for it to even out.

Think of it this way, if you're playing £1 a spin, and the max win is 1000x, you would expect to lose something like £1050 before winning the 1000x.

If the game has 20000x max win, then you're statistically likely to lose £20500 ish before you hit a max win.

Now take that to the games with 100000x and 200000x. You are statistically likely to lose VAST quantities before you 'hit big'.

As volatility continues to rise, something has to give, and what gives are the frequencies of small wins and 'mid' wins that used to give us regular smaller cashouts or keep our sessions running longer.

I get your point RS, absolutely I do. Here's the strange thing though.....

Before I go any further, I almost exclusively play games that are 96% RTP or above.
Rare exceptions to that rule would be Novos (which are mostly 95%), progressives (I would only play Mega Moolah tbh)
and some sub-96% MG and Netent (eg GOT which is low 95%).
If it is under 95% AND non-progressive, I ain't touching it. Unless of course, it is being FALSELY ADVERTISED as being above 95%,
when in actuality it is running a sub-95% version.

I started playing NLC games in September last year. Given their reputation for extreme volatility AND high max win potential, I was naturally cautious.
I also started to play Relax gaming slots a bit more often too, all while continuing to play my normal MG, Netent and BTG slots.

What surprised me is that, despite their claims of extreme volatility, I was actually getting a half-decent game for my money on NLC.
Sure, features were often hard to come by and would test my patience, but I was getting wins in the 100x to 500x range a lot more frequently
than I expected. In both base game (eg Infectious5, Book of Shadows, Legion) and features (EC v WC, Deadwood, Hoarder, Book of Shadows).

Contrast that with what my experience of BTG, MG and Netent was turning into. Those providers in the past were great at producing those 100x to 500x wins that kept the low stakes, low rolling players entertained for hours upon hours. You know the ones I am referring to.
IR, Playboy, TS2, Jurassic Park, Creature From the Black Lagoon, Bonanza, DHV to name but a small handful.
AND these slots could deliver those 100x wins in spades while ALSO offering up the "threat" of going a notch bigger...
into the 1000x and 5000x range.

But now, it's games by those providers that are MORE GUILTY of shredding my balance.
And the 100x wins seem to have disappeared into a black hole. Which adds insult to injury.
Even feature triggering frequency for the likes of MG and Netent seems to have been severely diminished.
Sessions seem to fall into two categories now....

1. Get zero sniffs at a feature and get rinsed in fairly quick order OR

2. Get multiple sniffs at a feature, but get no decent wins. You might well get decent playtime, but getting ahead by an amount that
could make you consider cashing out seems like a pipe dream. Which only serves to prolong your "agony" before the inevitable bustout happens.

For me, at this moment, Jurassic Park is the one MG slot I regularly play at an amount greater than 60p a spin (I play that at £1.20).
Simply because it is the only slot that seems to give me a decent game (and the prospect of decent wins) for my money.
It wasn't that long ago (summer/autumn 2021) that I was enjoying a brief spell of playing IR on MG Viper at £3 a spin.
Nowadays, I positively balk at the idea of playing IR any higher than 60p. The volatility has been drastically changed.
It's got so bad that I am wondering if I have to drop to 30p. At which point, I think I would rather not play.

As far as BTG goes, guess which slot I have most 100x wins from in recent months? Lil Devil.
The one with the potential to pay 100,000x (massively higher than any other BTG slot), the one which you would think ought
to have the highest volatility is the one which is playing more like an enjoyable and playable medium to high variance game.
Go figure.

Too many of these older games now look like nerfed eyesores that are mere shadows of their former great selves.
Rhino, Cleopatra Plus, Twin Spin, IR, Playboy, DHV, Bonanza, Creature.
I left DOA off that list because I still think that offers up something good for the player. But even that game has its detractors.
There's probably a craptonne more that I don't even know about, because I never played them in the first place.
Wouldn't be shocked if someone mentioned Book Of Dead, among others.

Too many of these "oldies but goodies" have been turned into Quickspin-esque or Yggdrasil-esque garbage that eat money like a high variance slot, yet payout like a low variance one. The sort that are "perniciously designed to ensure you stand almost no shot of ever getting ahead".*

* Choppers quote (made a good 7 or 8 years ago), not mine. But it remains relevant today. Perhaps it is more relevant than ever.

 

[mack341]

Let's play a game of cluedo [using 2 googled images instead of spending hours on paint trying to create something artistically pleasing ]

 

[TheAddict]

I wasn't gonna say nouwt, @snorky510238, but I was tempted. Now you've mentioed me, i feel compelled.
When I joined thus forum, the olny game I ever played was DOA. over 100 wild lines, over 20 5oak scatters, etc. I am so used to that game, if i play another game i forget the winlines, because my brain is used to only the 9 lines on doa and doesnt seem to be able to understand anything else.
Still, today, the game I only ever play (for more than 2p a spin lol) is DOA. I cannot stress enough how much of my online gambling has been devoted to that game, ad that game only.
It is insanely horrific now, since the evo take over. absolutely fucking horrific. There is simply no comparison.


Anyway, thanks for the tag! Keep up the good work!

 

[Jono777]

Pretty much same mate, 99% DoA here.

Know they dropped it about 3% RTP but feels like about 53% drop

Wild lines and 5 scatters, granted rare before but now mega, ultra rare with plenty of short balance destroying sessions in between them.

I recall you could throw £20 on and guarantee yourself 9/10 3-4 hours play with 5OAK premiums (lower end like glass. boots. hats) hitting regular and log out having had maybe 10+ bonuses, leaving some to play after work the next day.

On the full moon occasion when you do hit a wild line, it also seems to have developed a memory and plays like shit for the next 3-4 month's

 

[goatwack]

DOA is a strange one though - I recall us all pillorying it back in the day for being tight, it not playing how it used to etc, long before we turned our gaze upon BTG's turdbusters.

I recall having essentially boycotted the bastard as it was just not forthcoming, because at its core it was a fairly high-variance beast, unlike much of what was out at the time. On a good day, it might bonus a lot, but yield damp squibs. On other days, it'll just wear one's balance down via 'death by a thousand spins' (back when one could set Autoplay to 1000- remember that?)

So it was never sunshine and rainbows with DOA at any point, it could be very lumpy and produce purple patches- where the player becomes of the belief they've finally cracked it- which were usually followed by horrific, unceasing death streaks. It's always been like that, and that is why we love it so!

Further to my three-year DOA hiatus, unbelievable really, given how much I slotted back then, upon returning to it I was greeted by two wildlines in one session, £25 to £1500, wham bam thankyou ma'am, and so began the infatuation anew....

It played ok for the next few years here and there, but was still a c***

 

[brianmon]

I think people forget the effect that volatility has. There has been a MASSIVE uptick in the volatility of games recently. People want bigger and bigger wins and so the majority of games now have huge volatility.

Think back, most older games had max wins of 1000x. Now days, you'll be hard pressed to find a game with a max win of less than 10000x. Most seem to be 20000x or more.

This means you will go on longer losing streaks. It also works in the Casino's favour, because most of us have limited funds, so we'll bust out and won't be able to continue until we hit 'the big one', so may people will run a personal RTP far below the TRTP, just because they're unable to afford enough spins for it to even out.

Think of it this way, if you're playing £1 a spin, and the max win is 1000x, you would expect to lose something like £1050 before winning the 1000x.

If the game has 20000x max win, then you're statistically likely to lose £20500 ish before you hit a max win.

Now take that to the games with 100000x and 200000x. You are statistically likely to lose VAST quantities before you 'hit big'.

As volatility continues to rise, something has to give, and what gives are the frequencies of small wins and 'mid' wins that used to give us regular smaller cashouts or keep our sessions running longer.

And high volatility is what's going to kill online slotting and close a lot of casinos.

Players will only chase those max wins for so long.
The majority of casual players don't know what RTP is. So they're even less likely to understand volatility.

Even seasoned players like the CM community would find it difficult to gauge the volatility of most games.

Apparently, HV and UHV games are the most popular games at the moment, according to the casinos.
But is it not the case that most new games are HV and UHV?
And players, especially the casual ones, don't appreciate what they're playing and are just led by the max wins advertised?

You just need to look at the number of players who are joining Gamstop, Did I not read recently that there were 250,000 last year?
Add to that all the self-exclusions...

On the plus side. There are unlikely to be as many addicts in the future. Because new players will have given up trying to win or run out of money, before there's a chance of them becoming addicted.

It would have been easier to create addicts in 'the old days'. Because people lost AND won and made regular withdrawals.
Now it's just like throwing money into a bottomless pit.

I'd also think that Gamstop sign-ups and self-exclusions are a big factor in casinos pulling out of the UK market.
The UK market will only be viable for those casinos who have a large enough proportion of UK players.

 

[snorky510238]

Let's play a game of cluedo [using 2 googled images instead of spending hours on paint trying to create something artistically pleasing ]

View attachment 180197

View attachment 180198

Just imagine a games of Cluedo made by a combination of that lot.

The library would contain books for sure but half the pages would be missing and in some cases, complete volumes from certain collections.

The Dining room would have all the hallmarks of a place where extravagant cuisine was going to be presented but in reality you’d end up with a no frills buffet from Asda.

The billiard room would have a table but the balls would be too big to fit in the pockets.

The Kitchen would be run by the Asian equivalent of Gordon Ramsey (use your imagination).

The hall would be full of mirrors to create the illusion that it was actually a lot bigger than in reality.

The conservatory would be built on a part of the house that never received any sunlight.

The Study would contain a giant abacus, and a monkey, still trying to figure out how to get BTG games to pay over x1,000.

The Ballroom would actually be where the providers sat down and talked about….You’ve got it….Balls.

The Lounge would consist of a couple of plastic chairs (school type) and a chaise longue (that was actually a sun lounger from Home Bargains.

All of the secret passages would lead to a dead end.

And of course Snorky would be everyone’s top choice for most likely culprit to have committed the crime, with the candlestick.

A wise choice indeed I may add, but it wouldn’t be a conventional whack over the head. No, no, that would be too easy, with minimal pain. Think, Braveheart and you won’t be far away.

 

[aceking123]

Come on, we all know something just doesn't sit right, I can really only comment on my favourite game I R, I'm pretty damn sure microgaming did have different RTP% long ago.

Since a while ago the game has changed that much, think it changed when it went over to html.I hardly ever play it Any longer, I would think its still a popular game, but I'm sure in time someone will let the cat out the bag with reference to online games.

Something is going on, a 100 quid deposit at 60p bets your be lucky if you see 30 mins of play.

The landscape for uk players is all but over, find a better hobby save yourselves.......

 

[Valhalla]

@aceking123 same for me with Immortal Romance. It was easily my favourite game for a long time, but I haven't played it in a few years now. Maybe went and played 5 or 10 spins and thought "nope..." but that's about it. It's a completely different game now.

 

[snorky510238]

@aceking123 same for me with Immortal Romance. It was easily my favourite game for a long time, but I haven't played it in a few years now. Maybe went and played 5 or 10 spins and thought "nope..." but that's about it. It's a completely different game now.

You’re not allowed to post things like this on the forum. You’ll have the rose tinted glass brigade hammering at your door.

 

[electronictonic]

Come on, we all know something just doesn't sit right, I can really only comment on my favourite game I R, I'm pretty damn sure microgaming did have different RTP% long ago.

Since a while ago the game has changed that much, think it changed when it went over to html.I hardly ever play it Any longer, I would think its still a popular game, but I'm sure in time someone will let the cat out the bag with reference to online games.

Something is going on, a 100 quid deposit at 60p bets your be lucky if you see 30 mins of play.

The landscape for uk players is all but over, find a better hobby save yourselves.......

Horrendous run for me lately dead spins galore pouring hundreds in, dead base game no features till you have pissed hundreds and hundreds times your bet, then you finally hit a feature and it pays x10. I had a run last year where I did over 40 consecutive deposits of £50 over the course of a couple of months, betsize was 40p 50p or 60p all 40 odd deposits ripped without ever getting 1 penny above the starting balance and it was not on super high varience slots either pretty much close to calling it a day.

 

[Jono777]

They can jump on my back as much as they want to.

On average these days I manage the odd £10/£15, maybe occasional £20 deposit once a week.

About 3 years ago, I used to be able to play a lot more often, however with more or less the same disposable income and the same budget set aside for slotting, oh yeah and the same games give or take.

How?

I used to win and recycle some portion of my withdrawals, plus a £20 depo would often last 5-10 times longer than it does today.

Nothing has changed my end.....

Doesn't take a genius to work out the rest does it?

I would love to play my faves of yesteryear, the aforementioned one beautiful Immortal Romance, Raging Rhino, CFTBL to name just a few but only way I could is if I get in front from my 10p Novo or 9p DoA bets, something which mega rarely happens these days

Again, something has changed to reduce/stop this for 99% of my sessions

The whole slotting experience has been virtually destroyed through sheer provider greed!

I would not care less if the UKGC or other regulators finally got their ducks in a row and upon inspecting slots authenticity shut the whole industry down completely.

 

[TheAddict]

Feel you dude, lol. All the sessions I play on Doa since Evo almost never get ahead. Sure, the game no longer teases scatters so is going to run through money faster. But long gone are those nightly sessions with a £20 starting balance to see through the night, sometimes even leaving enough to repeat it the following night.
I often get so bored with the eheer amount of nothingness above 5oak boots that II start to count how many of the hours I've played during a few sessions in relation to the money lost, and when I do it just keeps working out as I'm losing £20 an hour on 9p. During the times I'd keep track anyway. No messing around, just a stone cold FU. Then I'd think back to how when I played it daily for years, that it would never take over 1000x without giving a base game hit above boots or hats during all those years. But the fucker doesn't mind doing it now, lol.

Fuckit, I barely play it anymore. I handed it a good chunk of 200 % reloads combined with other raw cash deposits over the past 3 or 4 months, wondering if it'll ever change. It played like I'd described above, pretty much throughout. Estimated loss of around 12,000x - 15,000x for 0 wild lines and 1x 5oak scatters, and a pathetically laughable low amount of the 5oak top 2 symbols during the base game.

Pfft. W'eva .

 

[Mojotne]

Sad but true...says it all I guess....

 

[goatwack]

I think a lot of our dewy-eyed slot recollections are intertwined with when bonuses were a thing, which may have a bearing on our nostalgia goggles.

We had it all -

white bonuses, black bonuses, Spanish bonuses, yellow bonuses. We had hot bonuses, cold bonuses. We had wet bonuses. We had smelly bonuses. We had hairy bonuses, bloody bonuses. We had snapping bonuses. We had silk bonuses, velvet bonuses, naugahyde bonuses. We even had horse bonuses, dog bonuses, chicken bonuses.

Alas, now we have diddly squat, nothing to double that humble £20 deposit, coupled with insanely dull modern games of the high- variance mould, session- building and any approximation of 'playtime' is all but defunct!

 

[TheAddict]

"We had it all -

white bonuses, black bonuses, Spanish bonuses, yellow bonuses. We had hot bonuses, cold bonuses. We had wet bonuses. We had smelly bonuses. We had hairy bonuses, bloody bonuses. We had snapping bonuses. We had silk bonuses, velvet bonuses, naugahyde bonuses. We even had horse bonuses, dog bonuses, chicken bonuses."

 

[marshallmdmiller]

May I suggest familiarising yourself with crypto, unless you already have of course, wack on a VPN and just play on one of the big crypto casinos. They just want to put on a good show and have no interest in withholding your money or asking you for the endless bullshit that a UKGC licensed casino would. I have had no issues whatsoever at any I've played at and had some hefty withdrawals processed in minutes (5k plus).

 

[bamberfishcake]

I think the idea that players want bigger and bigger wins has been driven by casinos and game developers, twitch streamers etc, rather than player demand. Nobody asked for the current experience of money flushed away while getting your disillusioned kicks from a kid on twitch spinning at £10 a pop.

You can tell just by reading comments in the forum over the last few years, players don't want the current field of play.

There are also lots of new games under 10k max win, and plenty of old over 1000x, but I don't think that has such an effect anyway. A game can have low-mid vol and still a higher max win than a high-vol counterpart due to the design.

The new slots are designed and tested over far more spins than before, which will naturally leave a more barren feel, but the old games are what have some people wondering if everything is above board.

RTP and how many spins it took to reach that RTP is what you need to look for, but even then, the difference from one game to another with the same RTP and testing can still be dramatic - one may be designed to pay out 1 million wins at 500x, while the other, 5 million at 100x.

You need to test these new games out in demo more than ever before really, or just stick to the old games. There are thousands created that pay over 1,000x max win. Part of the trouble now is finding them.

 

[satchnz]

One of the Twitch streamers I watch regularly was saying the other day that he thought it was a good move by Pragmatic to introduce a super bonus to their new slot Wild West Duel.

I’ve just watched him this very minute sit through 600+ base game spins of the same game, in his amazement, that the slot didn’t throw up one bonus.

Like duh.

 

[trancemonkey]

Explaining would take pages and pages but i will make it simple for curious player's wondering why everything looks "rigged". I'll give you hints then make your own research as when you figure it out by yourself your jaws drop on the floor and rage come up quick lol. But back in the days slots were using "reflex units" to control the RTP of slots. Nowadays they do it easily through softwares and it it is called "reflexing". There is a "master aglorithm" that has ultimate authority throughout the entire industry and manage every casinos and players RTP. It bypasses the providers and "decides" what will happen or not. If you hit, it is monitored by this "master algorithm" that let you go up to a specific amount then when you have capped the "master algorithm" alters your results and nerf the RTP of all games and casinos worldwide, you cannot escape. It is set to take a certain amount of money or take literally everything for a specific amount of time. Then when it's time it triggers the hot waves we all know of and suddenly we win left and right... again for a specific amount of money. If you bet high your hot mode is very short lived.. if you bet low you run hot for a while etc. Player's that hit all the time simply pay through every cold modes and triggers the loose mode over and over. The USA have banned the use of this system but it is used everywhere else.

Leave the casinos forums and everything related to them because they are financing all these sites so you will never find any informations about it. But if you dig in outside you will find all these informations. It's particularly easy to find informations among american casinos peeps as they can talk openly about this system since they banned it and are not restricted in talking about it. To give an idea of my current cycle... i purposely took my hot run on 3.20$ bets and got up 350x ish (1160$) and then i got nuked by the "master algorithm" and purposely took my bets to 10c average. I hit on feb 3rd and 14 days later i sit on -8000x (800$) lost back from the 1160$ and i am still nuked for at least 360$. Then either i will start hitting again or the system will have set me on a specific date which means if i go and lose 360$ too fast i will just continue losing more then when they will trigger my comeback i will hit for it all. Meaning the amount you win or lose is based on your losses and you can go up on the last win of the win streak but the "master algorithm" will always make sure to nuke you for every single cent you won, everytime. I been running and tracking my play for 2.5 years knowing this system but recently i investigated way deeper then before and figured out this entire system isnt a myth it is literally on what european casinos are built on. My country canada uses it on its games... it's literally everywhere but in USA... I never played as an american on american casinos so i can't tell if it is really the case but i played everywhere else and read everyone's stories...I paid attention to chats everywhere i played. Everyone runs the same...

There are way more informations to know as i said it would take pages... But they set us to hit or rip either in "fixed cycles" to make the games predictable for us and make us confident we got it all figured out. Then they flip to "variable cycles" to mix you up and create the addiction behavior that make you play all the time and always try the things that worked before making your play more and more and more. It is a system that was built by psychologists and specialists of human behaviors. They made the system works on "rewards/punishment" a system tested on animals.. but now on humans through the gambling industry. That system has flaws as humans are not animals and many quickly realize what is going on and quit or reduce their play dramatically. Everything i said is verifiable... Everything is a fact. Do your own research.. review your past play.. If you do like i did you will realize all these years your entire play was controlled. Always the same things, the same cycles, some "fixed" some "variable" to mess up but in the end always the same story. Think why i won all my RTP with 350x and im not done losing it back on -8000x. That is just the current cycle. Nothing matters but the $ +/-. It is applied on players as we can escape.. it is like we are all playing one unique slot machine with a "reflex unit" and we play all games through the same slot so we cant escape it. Why do you think all roulettes ALL have magnets and use computer programs to decide outcomes? Why so many streaks of reds or blacks... Why you always win easy when you are down and get saved and then when you finally hit big or multiple smaller hits you suddenly get destroyed worldwide? That's the "master algorithm".

We have all been lied to, manipulated and bullied into silence (whistleblowers) but now it is game over. It is extremely easy to expose the "master algorithm" work and it is insanely predictable once you know. So good luck to all people that wants to know. Finding information is hard but not impossible. But if, like me, you end up reading exchanges between casinos software engineers and psychologists that talk like we some kind of worthless animals and how it's easy to screw us up... you might start understanding what is really going on. Oh and guess what... all casinos know your bank accounts balances.. credit cards balances.. your credit scores... They monitor them 24/7. When you start realizing sometimes casinos offer you super deal for exactly the money in your bank account to the cent like my friends did after me... you will understand what kind of insane monster we are dealing with. Casinos dont need to cheat nope... because there is a "master algorithm" that does the job for them all. That algorithm controls our RTP.. and casinos RTP too. That's why casinos that refuse to pay players see the players start hitting more and more.. then they refuse to pay even more (N1) and then everyone hits left and right and they feel like they would never make it if they didnt screw up everyone lol. That algorithm screw us all.. but also .. protect us all in a certain way. If you just want entertainment and have fun you can play and not care it will always balance your play no matter long term. But you will... never win... And the few that will.. it will be because the system has detected money/income from you they want. After every wins... you will get rekt.. everytime ... 100%... I did it all... i can confirm. We can't win. It is always fake... always... and forever... like the entire industry.

peace

So, firstly, clearly this is someone who has worked in the UK compensated markets (Cat C, B4 or B3) and likely worked at Bell Fruit as they referred to compensators as reflexes (though other companies did too).

When i did compensated games we referred to them as comps or controllers. Are they a thing - yes, the UK market and the Spanish market uses them in one form or another.

Are they a thing in regulated online casino markets .. no. So the rest is just tin foil hat word salad.

If casino slots were comped you would hit the RTP very very fast on low volatility games unless they made the ranges for the comp huge, but then this defeats the object of comps...

The simple reason most games are compensated is not to protect players... It's to make sure the machines take money each week and don't massively overpay. Pubs and snooker halls often pay people from the machine take...so they can't afford to have the machin overpay by thousands each week. They are a single operator with one or two games

Casinos on the other hand have the law of large numbers on their side. They know that yes, there will be some days where they lose, but the volatility is really not that big... The more players the more coin in, the lower the volatility. Sure this can be skewed by a few big bettors but they ride this out...

Compensation is not only illegal, but it's also wholly unnecessary. Dont believe everything you read on the internet

 

[sufferinsilence]

*snip* Dont believe everything you read on the internet

Exactly!