1. By continuing to use the site, you agree to the use of cookies .This website or its third-party tools use cookies, which are necessary to its functioning and required to achieve the purposes illustrated in the cookie policy.Find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Follow Casinomeister on Twitter | Facebook | YouTube | Casinomeister.us US Residents Click here! |  Svenska Svenska | 
Dismiss Notice

Poll:Best Screenshot of the Month?



Candidates Revealed...Cast your vote!.
Dismiss Notice
REGISTER NOW!! Why? Because you can't do diddly squat without having been registered!

At the moment you have limited access to view most discussions: you can't make contact with thousands of fellow players, affiliates, casino reps, and all sorts of other riff-raff.

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join Casinomeister here!

The whole PAB system is broken in my opinion

Discussion in 'Forum Suggestions, Announcements, & Feedback' started by nothappy, Sep 14, 2011.

    Sep 14, 2011
  1. nothappy

    nothappy Dormant account PABnoaccred2

    Occupation:
    na
    Location:
    Wollongong
    [Max says: this thread was split off from Inetbet closes my account - You be the judge since is seemed to be a major topic in itself and a major derail from the original topic.]

    This may sound harsh but it is not meant personal. It is meant as constructive criticism and to allow you to view this as the members here may. It must be obvious to many but:

    The whole system set up here is broken in my opinion. You say that you should ask "how can I prove that I am not a fraud...etc?" Well then what? The casino will not respond. They have already gotten the "thumbs up" to steal the money from you based on your "findings" and I use that term loosely.

    So, what you do here, in essence, is get a PaB and look into it. Sometimes this may take months and months. In the interim there is a sort of "gag order" that this cannot be discussed in public. Then when you finally decide what you think you write back a terse email stating that you think that the casino is ok with taking the money and in so you will now close that players forum account so that there can be NO rebuttal in public. However, what you WILL do is forward one last message from you to them. The issue is that they have likely bloody well been ignoring the player for months and they see that you will not berate them for the thievery in public, so why in the hell would they respond to a last plea for help from the player?
    It is not a help when you do this. You silence the critics is what you do and the word doesnt get out. I am glad that I have seen gambling grumbles here. I will try and use them in the future. At least that person is interested enough to get both sides of the story.

    You ask us to believe you without question. However, as in these public cases of chuchu and alicek, you are taking the side of the casino when they openly have lied about thier position. You have them falsifying things out in the open where we can all see it then you ask us to trust them and their decision to not pay someone or lock their account?

    In AliceK's situation for example, they claim there was a bonus yet GG states there was no bonus used in her last several LARGE deposits. This person obviously sent in documents also based on the story. it is too far of a reach for us to think that the player is evil and bad and cheating and deserves to be stolen from when they were not doing anything remotely profitable other than gambling with their own funds. so you can say that you can divulge ZERO information. The information that GG gave was a slamdunk case against the casino. Especially when they lied to the writer about many things.

    My point in this ramble is that the way you conduct the PaB is good for the casino. It keeps the complaint out of the public view and basically silences them. You offer no real retort nor do you ask for much in the way of proof from the player. You get most of your info from the casino side.
    All of that is broken and I tend to believe gambling grumbles over this site based on those things. Especiallly the transparency issue.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2011
  2. Sep 15, 2011
  3. DiamondGeezer

    DiamondGeezer Dormant account PABnononaccred2 PABnoaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    Antiques Dealer
    Location:
    NOT Pennsylvania!!!
    I think a lot of what you say nothappy can be classed as 'fair comment' and your argument is well put. Howver I think you are very misguided in throwing the ills of the casino industry at Bryan's and Max's door. It's hardly their fault this industry has such poor legislation. Infact quite the contrary as they have campaigned tirelessly for more competent and robust legislation. They have highlighted the Malta failings and rogued Betfair and deserve a lot of credit for that.

    The PAB process can never be perfect and it is inevitible that sometimes good upstanding players will get ripped off. Mistakes are inevitible given the volume of work they receive. Not to mention the fraudsters who waste a huge amount of their time with bogus claims. And on occasion casinos will lie to them also.

    I have to say I yearn for the day this industry gets put on a more professional footing with regulation and an independant ombudsman doing the job that Max does. I'm sure Bryan and Max hope for that as much as we do, it's not like the PAB side is integral to the business model. You could even argue that CM might do better if they weren't involved in the PAB process and operated by promoting the forum and just reviewing casinos and providing a news feed. I'm sure they would have much easier lives and would still be very successful.

    I share your frustration nothappy but I also think Max and Bryan do a very difficult job very well. But also they are human and aren't going to get iright every time. I would never doubt their integrity.
     
    5 people like this.
  4. Sep 15, 2011
  5. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    Interesting.

    Could you please provide some examples of when "a good upstanding player" has been "ripped off" by the PAB process? Are you referring to your own use of the PAB service?

    I don't think its unreasonable to ask you to substantiate such a serious accusation.

    @nothappy

    It sounds a little like sour grapes on your part. I hope this isn't the case. Bryan and Max have a theory about players that demand to know how they were "caught".
     
  6. Sep 15, 2011
  7. DiamondGeezer

    DiamondGeezer Dormant account PABnononaccred2 PABnoaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    Antiques Dealer
    Location:
    NOT Pennsylvania!!!

    I could have put that bit better - "Ripped off" was meant in the context of casinos ripping off players followind an unsuccessful PAB. It wasn't meant to be a comment on the PAB process atall, just what can happen if the PAB process can't work for whatever reason.

    As far as my own use of PAB is concerned it was very successful and I am most grateful to Max for the work he did on my behalf. However I would much prefer beefed up regulation plus an independant ombudsman. Being from the UK I would also like to see online casinos based in the UK if they are to service the UK market. Also I would like to see these guys pay some tax.

    I'll stop now as this is going way off topic - sorry Chuchu.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2011
  8. Sep 15, 2011
  9. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    For now I've moved these posts to their own thread since any discussion of this topic -- and I have a funny feeling there will be plenty -- will be a major and continued derail from the original topic (Inetbet closes my account - You be the judge). As you might imagine I have a few comments of my own but they'll have to wait until after I get some shut-eye.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Sep 15, 2011
  11. DiamondGeezer

    DiamondGeezer Dormant account PABnononaccred2 PABnoaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    Antiques Dealer
    Location:
    NOT Pennsylvania!!!
    I hope nothappy doesn't get troll accusations just because he/she has a different opinion. Also it'e easy to make mistakes and not get one's point accross quite right just like I did a few posts above.

    The fraud accusation certainly does put the PAB process in a real bind. In truth things would may not be a lot different if there was some kind of independant adjudicator as a lot of the same situations would no doubt arise. I think it's always going to be very tough dealing with player fraud as regards disclosure. And certainly there is a lot of fraud attempted by players. I would like to see more independance but ofcourse the reality may be that it could be very disappointing.

    The worry behind any webmaster complaints model is casinos are capable of using fraud as cloak to deny payment to players if they have made some kind of promotional blunder. These don't happen often but when they do can be spectacular.

    It's very tough to strike a balance.
     
  12. Sep 15, 2011
  13. gaydave

    gaydave Banned User - complete PITA

    Occupation:
    Business
    Location:
    USA
    I don't want to sound badgering but how would anyone ever know if a good upstanding player got ripped off the way it is currently set up? If YOU, Nifty, were to be called a fraud by a casino and your money stolen then you pab'd here a likely result would be Max asking the casino about it, the casino saying "its fraud, this guy is connected to other players, they play same games, use same payment processor, blah, blah, blah..." then Max coming back and telling you that the casino has some evidence against you and that you are now locked out of the forum for pab abuse... therefore you cannot tell your story. You may send in a last statement to the casino that Max or Bryan will forward for you, in which the casino will then wipe their collective buttocks with it and be happy that they didn't have to pay you any of those winnings.
    To make a long story short, how would you tell us that you were ripped off? I can recall several, several players that made complaints then were told to stop while the pab was going on. I have seen some players scream innocence and say that they will do anything to prove it on this board with nothing being done (I know it is not part of the pab process and that Max/Bryan cannot force anything from a casino........ but they can put pressure). http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/casino-complaints-bonus-issues/38391-what-do-help-against-lock.html in specific look at post 8.... heck, read the whole thing. So the onus is on the player to prove himself. Who is listnening? Nobody, because the casino is not interested in getting it right, they are interested in not paying.

    I agree very much that the process could use refining.

    Why is it that the inetbet posters had their forum accounts locked? Odd that they have no way to rebutt the theft of the casino I would say.
     
  14. Sep 15, 2011
  15. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    In other words, you don't trust Bryan and Max. I've tried to find another angle that you might be coming from, but I keep coming back to that one fact.

    Instead of pointing out how terribly unfairly the PAB process treats fraudsters, how about coming up with a different process? You could lay it out right here for us. Who knows, maybe it will be adopted.

    The major sticking point with PABs has always been that the exact nature of the evidence provided by the casino, along with the methods used to collect said evidence, is never published for all to see. The only people who see it are Max and Bryan, so it comes down to whether you trust their judgement having SEEN all the evidence (whilst you have not). It's really very simple. If you don't think that they are intelligent enough to sort the wheat from the chaff and decide what constitutes evidence and what doesn't, why on earth woulld you even be here? If I thought that I would be out of here like a shot.

    There are two kinds of people who insist on seeing all the evidence in this forum (IMO)........the person perpetrating the fraud and other fraudsters looking for ways to better ply their trade, and the downright nosey. Neither have any legitimate argument.

    As for me being accused of fraud? It's been 14 years without incident for me. Funny how others just seem to have problems consistently. I guess I'm just lucky huh?
     
    4 people like this.
  16. Sep 15, 2011
  17. chayton

    chayton aka LooHoo CAG PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    Freelance Designer
    Location:
    Edmonton Canada
    deja vu all over again...
     
  18. Sep 15, 2011
  19. pinkfloyd

    pinkfloyd Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    fisherman
    Location:
    aus
    i could also see innocent parties looking for proof nifty , its a weird tightrope the people here walk , protecting accredited casinos from bad false accusations , hiding the way fraudsters are caught to protect the industry.
    i myself cant think of a better way to do it unless the whole damn industry is 200 % regulated and if operators faced 100 % closure and fines for ripping off players we might not need the pab sigh dream of the day.
    we have players committing fraud and casinos like coolcat committing fraud and we have suffering people in countries that are forced through 100 x playthrough or who are totally banned from even joining a casino because of what others have done previously.
    i have to admit in the years ive been playing ive never had an issue mainly thanks to this site and avoiding listed rouge casinos and such tho if i was accused of fraud my level of calmness would be a result of the amount and id be on here screaming blue murder for a large amount and proof if i thought i was falsely accused.

    the system might not be perfect but its the best dam system we got .
     
    5 people like this.
  20. Sep 15, 2011
  21. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
    A PAB should not be used to strong-arm the casino into submission otherwise the casino might as well close its ears and eyes. The system is there to seek cooperation from the casino to reach a compromise which while beneficial to the player would also preserve the reputation of the casino. Unless absolutely necessary, information should be kept under double wraps as this is sort of a mutual agreement between Bryan/MaxD and the casinos. Of course it is easy for a player to say 'Show me the evidence' but in reality the casinos wont let you know how they conduct fraud checking otherwise the real fraudsters will get smart and devise ways to overcome it.

    We shall have to rely on the integrity of Bryan and co. Years ago, when Max hadnt arrived on the scene yet the Belle Rock and Fortune Lounge casinos locked me out as they suspected that I was linked to a ring of fraudsters. I started a thread here and after investigation where I suspect Bryan played a big part my accounts were reopened. At that time, I, like others, felt that they need to prove to me that I was a fraudster. However, on second thoughts, I realised this would be difficult as they would expose their methods of checking making them easily vulnerable to fraudsters taking advantage of this knowledge. It all boils down to whether we believe in Bryan and Max or not. I have total faith in them but of course anyone can choose otherwise.
     
    10 people like this.
  22. Sep 15, 2011
  23. anniemac

    anniemac Ueber Meister MM PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    Texas, USA
    Good post, Chu. Totally agree.
     
  24. Sep 15, 2011
  25. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    Your ability to still post in this forum is proof that it does work. :rolleyes: We could have thrown your account into the heap of PA fraudsters, but since we look at all aspects of a complaint and compare notes with thousands of others, we are able to access these situations better than any entity that is willing to deal with these sort of things.

    Even though your PABs were unsuccessful, (one where you were accused of fraud via collusion), you maintained your status. To throw this into our faces saying that the system is broken is pretty thankless and undeserving IMO.

    Silence the critics you say? Any other administrator of a forum would have shut your account down ages ago. Food for thought.
     
  26. Sep 15, 2011
  27. jetset

    jetset Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Senior Partner, InfoPowa News Service
    Location:
    Earth
    Much of Nifty's post #8 resonates strongly with me.

    For years the PAB system here has been working well and in most cases quickly enough to be a boon to those players who use it, and an irritation to those that are exposed by it... and would perhaps like to use it to obtain information beneficial to their agenda.

    Bryan as the owner of the site has always been open to practical suggestions on improvement, but I don't see any here so far.

    The issue of "independence" has many nuances and can be debated to sometimes ridiculous depths until the cows come home, but the practical bottom line imo is what the PAB system is regularly able to achieve in redressing player complaints.

    Bryan and Max have been around the industry for long enough to suss out questionable statements and information on both sides of the argument and have proved to be men of integrity who try to assist players in an even- handed way and without expectation of reward. In addition they have contact with many experts at all levels in the pastime who are prepared to assist with information and perspectives.

    More formal and effective regulation in the industry is clearly desirable, but that is a patchwork in terms of quality, and as those involved in the industry for any period of time will tell you, the mere fact of a national regulator does not guarantee efficiency, communication or understanding from a player's p.o.v.

    This debate surfaces regularly and imo usually goes nowhere. Perhaps that's because there is little point in it if the player/s involved distrust the PAB system or those operating it and their capacity to make progress with operators on player issues. Excruitiating examinations in the past have not, as far as I am aware, produced a better system here, and I think most of us appreciate the potential value of proper "independent" regulation... but are realistic about its present execution.
     
    10 people like this.
  28. Sep 15, 2011
  29. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    It really is a system based on trust. The casinos trust Max and Bryan enough to show them the evidence, and how they got it. They know that neither Max nor Bryan will "spill the beans". Players have to trust that Max knows how to interpret the evidence, as well as form an independent opinion.

    There is also a big stick. A casino that falsifies evidence to achieve it's agenda of not paying players, perhaps because of a promotional blunder on their part, risks getting caught out and thrown into the pit.

    The carrot is that casinos who fully engage with the standards here can become accredited, and this boosts their business.

    The PABs also allow Bryan to monitor what is going on at individual casinos, and a sudden increase in valid PABs is a warning sign that something has gone wrong, and the casino needs reviewing. The first WE hear of this is when Max posts a "casino warning", which usually comes after the PAB process with that particular casino has ground to a halt, and Max can no longer make progress behind the scenes.

    There is of course choice. Gambling Grumbles, for example, provides a similar service, but again it is down to trust.

    The ONLY way to have all the evidence out in the open is to take the casino to court, which can be a complicated and expensive process.
     
  30. Sep 15, 2011
  31. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    I'd be interested in the OP's opinion on how to fix it. It's all well and good making a statement like this but without solutions and suggestions for improvements it just sounds like a player who didn't get the result falling the way he/she wanted. How would you improve it without giving away information to fraudsters and potential fraudsters?

    Example:
    Adjudicator: "We banned you because you had 4 accounts from the same computer".
    Fraudster: "You lie! (Note to self: Oops. Don't do that next time!)"

    IMO it's just the nature of the beast. Like eCOGRA, LGA, Alderney complaints etc etc and every other reputable complaints procedure in the industry, decisions have to be made, the result is 50/50 (a generalisation there!) and the reasons can't be publically posted or it will exacerbate the situation. In an instance like this (because of fraudulent players making life harder for everyone I might add!) then unfortunately the only way is to prove your innocence.

    As VWM says, it's all about trust. The whole industry is. You choose who you trust based on research.

    So back to the question to the OP: what would you do to improve it?
     
    2 people like this.
  32. Sep 15, 2011
  33. felicie

    felicie Ueber Meister PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    self employed
    Location:
    somewhere else
    I am one of those players that got screwed by a casino and was totally amazed when my PAB failed since it seemed so obvious to me that they were up to no good. Then I started thinking, Max and Bryan don't know me from Adam. Why should they believe me instead of the casino? It was a bitch writing all the little details in the correct order that they happened and then attaching things to back it up only to find in the end it was no different than the results I'd already gotten; my word against the casino's. It was probably the lst or 2nd time in my whole life that someone didn't take my word at face value on something quite important to me, and that was upsetting but then again, we weren't face to face so how could they. Oh hell now what was my point :rolleyes:
    Oh yes, that if you consider your out of pocket expense to Maxd for a PAB, he does pretty well I think in trying to resolve our difficulties. Sometimes you win sometimes you lose. That's life and, I might add, watching the casino crash and burn in the end wasn't too bad either. ;)
     
  34. Sep 15, 2011
  35. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    This is what is usually released in public, but what they DON'T release is HOW they managed to find out that the fraudster was using the same computer, as no doubt he would have taken some precautions that he thought would disguise the fact that all accounts came from the same computer, perhaps by reinstalling the OS between creating accounts. If he knew what he failed to do, he would make sure this was covered the next time, so he would reinstall the OS and deal with whatever else he found was retaining a footprint on his system that the casino was using to tell it was the same computer.
     
  36. Sep 15, 2011
  37. gaydave

    gaydave Banned User - complete PITA

    Occupation:
    Business
    Location:
    USA

    but I don't think that even happens does it? I don't think you are even given THAT much info... just "your linked to a fraud ring" or " there is evidence suggesting you are fraud". They don't even say "4 accounts from same computer" that way you could either shut your trap if it is a true accusation or you could show your computer, give someone access to it to explore and look at things to prove it isn't correct.


    Regarding the TRUST or DONT TRUST mantra... you are asking grown, thinking human beings to just blindly believe another with nothing substantiating it.
    For example, in the alicek debacle, we can ACTUALLY SEE that the casino lied on some accounts. Some things they stated are just plain lies. However, we are expected to believe that they are telling the truth about alicek and her non-bonus winnings being fraudulent. C'mon! That makes no damn sense. They lied repeatedly. They ignored alicek's emails.... NOW we must blindly believe them. That is a pretty hard pill to swallow. Zero transparency is not good for the industry. Maybe you don't tell the person HOW you found what you did but how about telling them WHAT you found? and "fraud" aint good enough.
    Do I trust Bryan and Max? As much as anyone else that I have never met. Do I trust the casino? Well not actually, they have a direct benefit of keeping alicek's money. Do I trust Gambling Grumbles? As much as anyone else also but at the least they are transparent and asked alice about what had happened, then published it.
    So with what I personally have seen (obviously not the same as max/bryan) it is obvious that inetbet has lied and falsified things. It is obvious that they are keeping money from a player who won without a bonus. THUS, if the player can give legitimate documents proving her identity then the casino has no ground to keep her money. Fraud with no bonus? So she pretended she was someone else to gamble with her own money?
    Do you see how silly it all sounds from what we can see? If she has documents and is of age then pay her. She won gambling. Fraud doesnt make sense here. That is what is so hard about the pab process. Fraud in what way? It is illogical to think a casino should profit the thousands the player deposited and the thousands they won also especially if no bonus is involved and documents can be sent. It is equally illogical to think a person would commit fraud just to gamble when they can do that without fraud tactics.
     
    1 person likes this.
  38. Sep 15, 2011
  39. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    @ Gaydave - there are a number of ways fraud is committed: Multiple accounts, collusion, etc. You are looking at this with tunnel vision.

    How about offering suggestions instead of attacking iNetBet? :rolleyes:
     

Share This Page