The slow death of the online casino bonus

[The Dude]

Did a little write-up on bonuses, and why their days are numbered:
https://www.casinomeister.com/bonus-offers/

This was inspired by Simmo!'s opinion piece on his site "The Funeral Of The Casino Signup Bonus". You can read this here:

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Please read these, think about it, and then continue with this thread.

I've never liked SUBs, and I am absolutely convinced that they need to be laid to rest. I'll be doing my part in asking Accred Casino reps to put on their thinking caps and try to steer away from this method of marketing. We're going to be looking at other positive aspects of gaming - focusing more on the games and other attributes that casinos can offer than offering a SUB. At this point in time, bonuses and their convoluted rules have just gotten a bit too much.

I'd like to hear from the community about any creative solutions that would replace the SUB.

 

[paul7388]

That was a good read and I agree with most of it as I rarely bother with bonuses. Deposit and lose what I can without all the conditions of a bonus.

But taking the membership here in general I feel most will disagree. The ideas and reasons in your post are great but so many members here post repeatedly that they wont deposit without bonuses. There are so many posts where players leave a casino as soon as they stop getting bonuses or only deposit at the casinos offering best bonus on the day.

And from reading the regular input a lot of players will not even sign up to a casino unless it has a great welcome bonus available.

Personally i wouldn't care if places I play never give a bonus. In fact as I regularly use bookmaking sites casinos as I like the sports betting and they have majority of slots I like I spend most money there and most times there are no bonuses available anyway.

But it would be great if their was a way to reward players for loyalty rather than giving match bonuses all the time.

 

[lockinlove]

I dont know how creative it is because some casinos already do it.

But cashback would be good. Get a certain percent of your losses back.

Or the races are fun. But have different ones. High roller and low roller. because most of us know we wont place in any races because no one can compete with the high rollers. So have some for the little guys.

Or for every 500 spins you get 10 free spins. No wagering of the winnings either.

 

[dionysus]

I rather enjoy deposit bonuses and SUBS - though these days, I pretty much stick to or 2 casinos only. But I don't expect withdraws from my deposit - I want good playtime, so money on top is more time to play and a fun challenge. I also play often with my mom -she'll swing round, split a card and we enjoy the evening in, spinning and enjoying the bonus rounds and excitement without the hassle of a casino drive hours away. (now, even a friend I used to haunt pubs with, comes over on a Friday, we'll grab beer in and play and chat together, listen to tunes, make snacks).
I look at a casino dep as I would a night out - I had fun, win or lose, and the longer I can have fun, the better. And the dogs appreciate me being in too.

As long as Ts and Cs are transparent and you bother to read them, stick to reliable casinos, talk to support when in doubt, I find you're good to go.

 

[Cassaon-casino]

Although the bonus is a great incentive to new players I for one won't accept it.

Aside from the steep playthough attached to it it's the additional terms that's got me scampering for cover. They come with a max. bet per spin and max. cash out. Plus they can only be used to play certain games such as slots which predominantly favour the house. Slots are not dubbed the 'crack cocain' of casino games for nothing.

Now, the question one has to ask why have the bonus terms become so ludicrous of late? Is it because of increased competition amongst operators, expensive operating costs such as license fees, staff salaries, vendor fees etc. Or is it just a 'nice incentive' to shaft the player under the auspices of free money and just plain old greed?

 

[AndyB-MrGreen]

I rarely take them and I agree with most of points in the articles Bryan and Simmo wrote.
However, there are bonuses that do make sense.

There's an increasing trend towards the type of bonus that Leo Vegas, Mr Green and a few others offer.
They are like not playing with a bonus but getting another shot at some winnings if you lose your own money - it's a no-brainer.
You play with your own funds, you win - you can withdraw with no penalty other than the bonus disappearing.
You play - you lose - you get bonus money to play with, it has a WR but there's no reason not to have a crack.

For players who don't like their own funds being tied in it makes perfect sense.

I know there are some other fairer, innovative bonuses out there that don't tie in your funds, they're the ones I'd take, I hope we'll hear about them as this thread progresses.

Cheers

 

[lotusch]

Also posted in the other thread.

------------------------>>

Hi guys,I play very rarely with a bonus.
Simply because I do not want to get attached to a WR and adittional t&c's on max bet rules and stuff.
For me bonusses are more a pain in the arse then they would do me any good.
I know there are probably a lot of "pro" bonus players around in this world who know exactly how to beat a bonus or know the best way to try and beat it.
I am more straight forward,I deposit and I play.
If I win I can cash out whenever I want and if I lose I lose.

So for me bonusses are not interesting,personally.
I think they are nice to enhance your playtime but in general I think they are a big advantage to the casino and your chances of a withdrawal decrease due to the mostly hefty WR attached to them (& other t&c's like max bet and excluded games etc etc).

Cashback on losses on the other hand I like as you might lose a deposit and get a few quid in bonusmoney (it's like a comp after a bad streak really).

 

[goatwack]

I actually find myself using straight deposits as opposed to bonuses nowadays and I'm a relative lo- roller. T & Cs have become so painstaking that it has put many experienced players off for good and are used to seemingly entrap fledgling gamblers.

Even in the last few years bonuses have warped beyond all recognition and are not sustainable in their current format, no siree

I really think the cashback angle seems to be the way forward as a business model!

 

[Dinahnana]

Simmo' and Casinomeister's articles are very compelling and gave me a new perspective on the SUB. I am pretty much at the point where I have my list of casino's that I play at so I don't have to worry about the SUBs. I do take the reload bonuses because when you have 40 or 50 bankroll the bonuses do extend the playtime.

The best and most original casino out there that offers players incentives to play has to be Videoslots. You get the casino race if your lucky free money from that! You also get the weekly cashback and who doesn't like that? I must admit on bad sessions I have gotten under 2 euro cashback but c'est la vie! I wish to see more casinos doing stuff like this. The only thing I ask of casinos is for the love of God please no more free spins on Starburst. And from time to time pick a 25 line slot and give coin value 0.02 that would be awesome!

If let's say a new casino was to enter BOF and they had a decent SUB with good terms and by good I mean no excluded slots a reasonable max bet and wagering requirement then I would give them a shot. If the casino has a bad SUB and no other incentives then I would give them a miss.

So casinos out there if you want to do away with SUBS look to places like Videoslots, Casumo, Slotsmillion and Betat. These casinos know how it's done, they keep things interesting for the players

 

[Simmo!]

But cashback would be good. Get a certain percent of your losses back.

I've always liked this idea. I remember when Canbet was around they did a 20% weekly cash-back up to 500 with a 5x wr, credited every following Tuesday, and it always got me playing.

It all comes down to to how a good casino will try to understand its customers and accept that every one is different. A strategy that treats all players the same will never be as effective as it could be. Some players want cash-back, some want a sub, some want fast cash-outs, some want no reverse time, some don't want to be charged for deposits, some want ndb loyalty bonuses, some want free spins, some want gifts.

What works for me is a casino with no reverse pending period, the occasional VIP loyalty NDB or cash-back after I have played a lot and it's always a nice surprise to receive the odd gift. I never return to a casino that charges me for deposits, does deposit authorisation forms, has automatically-credited bonuses or screws me around on cashouts.

 

[paul@bgo]

I'm not sure I can see the practice of offering up front bonuses finishing any time soon - here's why. Upfront, % based bonuses are a way of offering a level playing field to all players. If we were to run a prize draw or wagering race, the odds are inevitably in favour of those players who either win more, thus can wager more or deposit more. With a bonus, the level of commitment and reward is solely in the hands of the player.

If there was an outright ban on sign up bonuses tomorrow then you would stagnate the market and the operators with the deepest pockets would gobble up market share as they can afford to advertise more. Acquisition strategy is fast becoming one of the most important factors in our industry as more and more operators open their doors. It's a very big, global market and in a world where most of us share the same games content, the only way to be "better" is to offer more value for money and a better user experience. This is what makes our industry great in my eyes - a smaller operator can genuinely compete with the big boys because they do the job better and that is what leads to growth. Provided you have a good team of people on hand, any Casino can open up and make an impact and the reason is attractive, well managed promotions.

If you remove bonuses then you enter what the world of loss-leaders, a horrible practice that is fast becoming the norm for Sportsbooks who are vying for market share. Instead of the quintessential 'free bet' they are now offering absurd odds on banker markets. 'Get 10/1 on Chelsea to beat Burnley' kind of stuff. They are in effect paying you money to bet with them and that to me is a very dangerous precedent to set. How can a smaller operator be expected to compete with that level of aggression?

I think it's important to remember 1 thing as a player. Competition in the industry is a good thing. If you remove that competition, you end up with limited choice and that will drive prices up and quality down.

 

[spintee]

There is SUB Than Player bonus,

Unfortunately the SUB is to grab the punters in, Theres always going to be coffins so the last nail is nether gong to be hit on the head,

I love a bonus but due to the fact its some extra play time, What I do not understand is the entrapment that comes with a lot of them now days, I know Andy pointed out that its a no brainer taking bonus such as on he's site, As you have nothing to lose, But as long as that bonus is still sitting in the background I believe your still got your hands tied with max bet / games ect,

Some of the best casino's out there & accredited here heavily advertise with bonus being the majour factor, 4 casinos was advertised the other night in one ad break,

I am not ashamed to say that if I had more money to spare than I would not dream of taking a bonus,

 

[Stovetopp]

I've always liked this idea. I remember when Canbet was around they did a 20% weekly cash-back up to 500 with a 5x wr, credited every following Tuesday, and it always got me playing.

It all comes down to to how a good casino will try to understand its customers and accept that every one is different. A strategy that treats all players the same will never be as effective as it could be. Some players want cash-back, some want a sub, some want fast cash-outs, some want no reverse time, some don't want to be charged for deposits, some want ndb loyalty bonuses, some want free spins, some want gifts.

What works for me is a casino with no reverse pending period, the occasional VIP loyalty NDB or cash-back after I have played a lot and it's always a nice surprise to receive the odd gift. I never return to a casino that charges me for deposits, does deposit authorisation forms, has automatically-credited bonuses or screws me around on cashouts.

Which casinos whether US facing or not does not require "deposit authorization form" unless I am mistaken what is deposit authorization form

As to the subject matter, I wish they would do away with bonuses tied to WR. I rarely use bonuses and dont expect to cash out using it The WR is criminal esp at the RTG casinos but they are good for time killing when one is low on funds and absolutely bored to death!!

 

[Cassaon-casino]

I don't think the bonuses should be removed per se it's just that the playthrough and additional terms associated with it makes it impractical to the player. I believe it's a case if you catch when once shame on you...

My question why has the bonus terms become so steep of late? As Simmo pointed out in his article back in the day when he signed up at Ladbrokes the bonus had a playthough of 4 times.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Personally, i did not sign-up with a new casino from Feb 2012 until end of December 2014 as i played only within the 32RED group, hence, this was not such an issue. However, after my romance with 32RED went a little sour at the end of last year i registered with CM and found out about all these new multi-platform casinos.

In the course of 8 weeks i registered with 12 new casinos like VS, Guts, Betsafe, Mr. Green, CasinoLuck, Energy etc. I always took the SUB, in 10 out of 12 the max. amount possible for 1st, 2nd or even 3rd deposit, when it was offered. I can "proudly" say now that i never made it to a withdrawal, not once!!!! Only after busting out with the bonuses and depositing straight without any extras i started cashing in regularly.

The last one i did was LuckyDino, 1st deposit 200, 100% SUB - WR 10,000 !!!! ; 2nd deposit 200, 50% SUB WR 5,000!!! - never really made it past the starting balance. Played for some 4 hours and busted out with bets from 0.90-4.50, mostly on DOA.

Hence, i will stop registering with new casinos, no matter what the offers are, i can't care less. Do my deposit at my regular casinos and play with smaller bets instead, gives me the same playtime and on a lucky day i can always increase my bets to whatever i want and i can withdraw whenever i feel like...period!!!

The best value for money is at VideoSlots with the weekly casino races and cashbacks. If you play and bust out you can always have another go on Friday or Monday when you get the dosh credited from both programs and it is wager free!!!!...withdraw or play at your own will..... no need to have a PhD to understand t&c's, no restrictions on games and bet sizes, no wasted time arguing with CS or reps if i should be paid or not or how many x my deposit, etc. etc. . The best excuse for denying a payout after taking a SUB was that i played only 1 slot!!! It was indeed hidden somewhere in the small print that one had to play at least 5 slots!!!

The only bonuses i take nowadays are the DOTD at 32RED as i am still or better said again happy to be a regular there. I only take them because 32RED does not have any BS rules, just straight 30xWR and no restrictions on withdrawals.

These 2 casinos are getting 90% of my deposits now, the other 10% go to RedBet, CasinoLuck, Next, Energy and Royal Vegas, where i hardly ever take a bonus.

Last sentence: SUB's are only trap to get you to deposit, having 40-50xWR attached makes sure that 96% of the players won't even have a chance to come even close to a withdrawal from this first deposit. It should be considered only as an extension of your playtime, nothing more. Chances you will make a withdrawal from a deposit with a SUB are dramatically lower then from a straight deposit with no bonus attached.

 

[mac72]

I've come to the opinion that SUB are a complete waste of time UNLESS they are the 2nd chance ones like Mr Green ,Betat do.They are a no brainer, if you going to play anyway why not have a freeroll (maybe even at the highest stake permittable) when you would of busted out. Anything else and the amount of time it takes you to sift through what is expected would put me off, some even have terms that allow them to void winnings just because of your style of play regardless of the fact that you might have complied with all the other t+c's.
I'm sure a large percentage of the threads and complaints here have been by people who have got caught out by t+c's on SUB's thought they won big and then got voided which kills the player and damages the Operators profile regardless of whether they're in the right.
As for cashback anyone playing regularly at any level should have no issue negotiating that with most of the operators, but remember if you don't ask you won't get. Cashback should always be negotiated as just that, withdrawable cash and not as some bonus with WR.

 

[slots-guide]

I agree with the sentiments in the articles and for most players at most casinos I would suggest avoiding the bonuses - IF they are serious about making money. If a player is an ultra low roller and if not spending much money and wants the entertainment value only then why not take a bonus and take one as big as they can get. Though you could of course simply suggest they play casinos in demo mode and avoid all costs altogether!

For me personally I avoid the sticky bonuses as they are completely pointless. However a good cashable bonus at a respectable casino is fair game. This is enough of an edge for me and I do like the structure wagering requirements give me as there is a very clear cash-out point. With a €100 deposit and a 100% cashable bonus and giving myself enough time to complete the wagering, I would say 2 out of 3 times I'll burn through the bank balance very quickly however the other 1 time in 3 I'll average a cash out of around €1500. But of course I can get the same kind of returns when paying without a bonus, it just costs a little more to "buy in".

I think most players do fall into the wagering trap because if they get lucky early on and go from say 100 to 1000 but still have 5k of wagering left to play, it is ridiculously frustrating and most players make the mistakes when chasing down the wagering and blow out.

 

[sigothx1]

SUB's are fine, as long as they dont come with 58 terms that are designed to make you lose. Want to know how to do SUB's right? head over to betat. you take the bonus, and if on your absolute first spin you win 1000x you can just go ahead and withdraw it, yes you forfeit the bonus, but your not tied to it. The issue we all face with taking other SUB's is you may get that great hit early... but then you know your going to have to battle through 1000's of spins to finally make a w/d.

any sub with a max cashout, banned games, spirit of the bonus, or "ap" terms are just not worth it imo.

 

[shewoff]

Long Lines At The Casino!

As a long time player and i have been playing since the early 2000 and i had a heck of a time learning the ropes?I do agree that the bonus situation is a GREAT big slam to this biz, that with just a few good casino,s and some good and smart owners/manager,s this problem of huge bonus,s that some sites are showing will be a thing of the past. Now if anyone should say that i love the bonus it is me. The very first win that i ever had was on a 300% bonus that netted me 22,000. And i did get paid.
But as time has gone on and i have gotten wiser i feel that all of the many many hours spent trying get thru the playthru and the ultimate cost to ALL concerned. I know that you can win without a bonus as I have done it,true not no where near the same size and that is the one thing that is true here. The casino,s rely on the human fact of greed. WE human,s are always it seems a very greedy nature creature,s. It,s a fault that most will not admit but it,s there! We all want more for the wife and kid,s and a new car and a nice house and all of these things are fine but whom do we ultimately hurt with this greed ?Your Self and all of the little people who are just trying to make a few easy bucks and maybe pay a long out standing bill.
So if i have seen anything in this bonus slam it is the fact that the owner,s scruple,s are tested and again the old human need for MORE. They are after all business people and if they can see a way to make the profit,s go up 25% or 30% they will do it as it is a sound biz decision. But long line,s means just that long line,s of winner,s and the building amount of rogue casino,s who have no intention to pay.But to have the young or inexperienced player lay down his entire pay check and then lose it. WOW it is a never ending process and more lines as the rogue never intended to pay just get the deposit.
I feel that a mix of maybe the bonus under 100% like 77% or 50% it makes a small deposit still seem like a small deposit? I think that we have the ability to make this system go in the correct path and make a it a true pleasure to play a few dollar,s and if you win a few hundred or even a few thousand then you don have a feeling of accomplishment. You had a good time and made a few buck,s. I will play the small bonus to break up the play and it will in some cases give me as a fair to midland player a more than average chance to keep my money.
So to say I agree is a more than thought out response it is a fact of life if we wish to continue to play online. Because if it stay,s the way of the past they will shut it all down! And every casino site will have a doghouse at the door. And the welcome bonus is the hook to keep you coming back. So play but do it wisely and remember that the ones you want to help will suffer if your not!Peace Out! Out Of The Mist! shewoff

 

[Simmo!]

Which casinos whether US facing or not does not require "deposit authorization form" unless I am mistaken what is deposit authorization form

The Mansion group, betway, Mr Smith back when it was Harry, Ladbrokes and African Palace have all asked me for deposit authorisation forms when using a debit card to deposit. Ladbrokes as recently as this week.

My question why has the bonus terms become so steep of late?

Partly because the more you offer a good thing, the more it gets abused. But also I think a lot of casinos now think of a bonus as a way players can try out the games with less risk, while most players see it as a way to win more money with less risk. I think that difference in opinion is part of the problem.

 

[Jono777]

To open I recall the Ladbrokes x4 bonus and recall my £80 WR and my £1,200 cash out that followed, think that's why they change to Playtech garbage

As a player of 10 years+ I will admit as a low roller I do prefer and have taken a bonus on 60-70% of my deposits over the time of my gaming.

The earlier days were at People casino (games xtra) and the WR had to be met before the bonus credited and would 'carry over' if you busted before completing it. This casino no longer trades so unsure if that bonus setup contributed to its downfall.

I was bonus banned for a time at my top casino (32 Red) and during this period made lots of cash only deposits, some days it did bother me if my initial game selection was 'cold' and I was 'out' within minutes, on the better days tho I was cashing out within the first few spins which I could not do if tied into a bonus.

These days I do tend to search for a bonus, main reason to extend play time as others have said, but this is down to I) My luck is terrible atm II) My bankroll and gaming budget are a lot smaller than they used to be.

I will VERY rarely stray from accredited casinos here, mostly to pretty much more or less guarentee that I am not going to be stung by any FU clauses and I can rest that night knowing that having met WR my cash out will not be affected.

Also when deciding on 'Where to put today's deposit' 7/10 I check e-mails over a couple of times throughout the day and decide which casino is offering the best deal.

Prize draw's, raffles, cashback, races do not interest me, In ten years I've never even come close and that's not going to change which is what gives me this opinion towards these kind of promotions.

I much prefer a deposit bonus with realistic, achievable WR (very max x40) and free spins. Guts Christmas Promo (the Grinch calendar) was one of the best promos I've EVER seen. 32 Reds DOTD is great and they have not sent their WR through the roof like some cowboy outfits.

As for SUB's I recall a lot of MG download clients offered 100% AND 50FS with 30x WR, this is realistic, I probably did take most of them but also remember busting on most of them so casino was never in any danger.

I feel a realistic and attractive SUB would be 100%, some FS a 35xWR and maybe a max cash out of 25x deposit. Not unrealistic, wont scare players off and casino would be reasonably protected.

 

[Cassaon-casino]

The Mansion group, betway, Mr Smith back when it was Harry, Ladbrokes and African Palace have all asked me for deposit authorisation forms when using a debit card to deposit. Ladbrokes as recently as this week.

Partly because the more you offer a good thing, the more it gets abused. But also I think a lot of casinos now think of a bonus as a way players can try out the games with less risk, while most players see it as a way to win more money with less risk. I think that difference in opinion is part of the problem.

Thanks Simmo.

It makes sense since there are tons of bonuses abusers floating about. At the end of the day it's up to the player to decide whether or not the bonus is in his or her bets interest. As a rule of thumb if the bonus WR are too steep (35xb plus) or has a maximum win or max. bet rule imposed upon it-take a wide berth. Also I find that there are very few portal casinos that offer a proper explanation on the bonuses and whether the player should accept it or not.

 

[Simmo!]

As a rule of thumb if the bonus WR are too steep (35xb plus) or has a maximum win or max.

This is generally what inspired my Funeral of the Signup Bonus article: the Roxy Palace 6x Max Withdrawal issue that we had recently. I read that as a positive thing because that's when it occurred to me that the signup bonus was finally on the downward slope.

It will probably never die altogether but from a players perspective, I believe a signup bonus is now more often a disadvantage to a player looking to win than an advantage as it was in the "old days" and in time, as players start to understand that, that will start to have a positive impact on the whole industry in my opinion.

There is still the problem that casinos and affiliates advertise a signup bonus as a good thing for players and inexperienced players thinking they can win more easily will fall for that but I think finally, with things like the 6x Max Bet rule, we are on a path where the obvious problems they pose a player are more obvious and even newer players will be better educated. When more players start to see a signup bonus as a way to extend playing time like many casinos do, rather than a chance to win more easily, then things will start to evolve.

Many casinos want players to think a bonus increases their chances of winning but at the same time, they want to prevent the player from winning with a bonus! You can see straight away where the problem is.

 

[mac72]

I'm not sure I can see the practice of offering up front bonuses finishing any time soon - here's why. Upfront, % based bonuses are a way of offering a level playing field to all players. If we were to run a prize draw or wagering race, the odds are inevitably in favour of those players who either win more, thus can wager more or deposit more. With a bonus, the level of commitment and reward is solely in the hands of the player.

If there was an outright ban on sign up bonuses tomorrow then you would stagnate the market and the operators with the deepest pockets would gobble up market share as they can afford to advertise more. Acquisition strategy is fast becoming one of the most important factors in our industry as more and more operators open their doors. It's a very big, global market and in a world where most of us share the same games content, the only way to be "better" is to offer more value for money and a better user experience. This is what makes our industry great in my eyes - a smaller operator can genuinely compete with the big boys because they do the job better and that is what leads to growth. Provided you have a good team of people on hand, any Casino can open up and make an impact and the reason is attractive, well managed promotions.

If you remove bonuses then you enter what the world of loss-leaders, a horrible practice that is fast becoming the norm for Sportsbooks who are vying for market share. Instead of the quintessential 'free bet' they are now offering absurd odds on banker markets. 'Get 10/1 on Chelsea to beat Burnley' kind of stuff. They are in effect paying you money to bet with them and that to me is a very dangerous precedent to set. How can a smaller operator be expected to compete with that level of aggression?

I think it's important to remember 1 thing as a player. Competition in the industry is a good thing. If you remove that competition, you end up with limited choice and that will drive prices up and quality down.

Paul i'm not sure I agree entirely with you here.Competition is obviously good for the consumer but surely too much of it has a negative affect?. You don't see 10 McDonalds opening in a small town for that very reason.
With only limited quality content available for operators surely the content providers should put some limit on the amount of licence's they grant for operators within a given market and then try and hold those operator's to a higher quality standard of service which should inevitably lead to more market share and a better experience for the consumer, in the full knowledge that there are dozen's waiting to take their place should standards fall.
I think if I were an operator i'd be continually pissed off with having to up my marketing budget to keep fending off start up's that my business partner, the content provider was working with and in essence against me?

 

[Cassaon-casino]

This is generally what inspired my Funeral of the Signup Bonus article: the Roxy Palace 6x Max Withdrawal issue that we had recently. I read that as a positive thing because that's when it occurred to me that the signup bonus was finally on the downward slope. It will probably never die altogether but from a players perspective, I believe a signup bonus is now more often a disadvantage to a player looking to win than an advantage as it was in the "old days" and in time, as players start to understand that, that will start to have a positive impact on the whole industry in my opinion.

Absolutely and well said.

This is the way I see it. I'm a low to medium roller. I've never accepted a bonus and neither will I. I'll only recommend it based on the following and tied in with most of the comments that has been said in this thread:

1. If the bonus wagering is in line with that of industry standards (30xb) and has no additional SU ('Stuff You') clauses.
2. You accept it purely for entertainment purposes and not to try and make money from it.