The Mysterious RTP??????

[Mavin1]

Recently I had initiated a thread regarding the RNG's and Variance issues and why I felt it was not playing as advertised. It was later pointed out to me that possibly I meant RTP and this made sense to me as maybe RNG's and Variances can stay the same or go up and down in a given range, but what of the RTP, return to player?

As I had asked, if the RNG and Variance is the same today as it was 6 years ago, then why is the play different. I know many many people are saying the same thing, you can read it in nearly all threads.
So I would like to know what is the difference in the RTP now compared to just a couple or few years ago?

I had read Amatrine's post regarding her bad streak finally breaking after a couple years. But I have to wonder when it's at one of Casino Jacks casino sites. How does a player know these few forum members aren't getting the high setting of the RTP just to retrieve some public positive advertising through forum members? I am glad she has finally gotten some positive return on her deposits, but how long will this last?
And if a forum member spoke out against the remark Casino Jack publicly stated then how does a player know they won't get the low setting out of spite?
I personally wouldn't play at his affiliated sites just because of this.
But obviously this tells me that this casino group for whatever reason is giving the playing public the RTP that all casinos used to give on a regular basis a few years ago.

And no I don't feel cheated or am having a run of bad luck or any of that other reasoning that is given when there is an inquiry from someone that is fairly new or new to this forum. I have personally dumped all casinos from my pc as I don't trust any of them anymore to give the average small depositor a fair session.

But it would be interesting to know what is the secret recipe of the RTP?

 

[4 of a kind]

as I don't trust any of them anymore to give the average small depositor a fair session.

But it would be interesting to know what is the secret recipe of the RTP?

I truly believe that to even have a consistent chance online you pretty much need a decent bankroll. Not that the small depositor couldn't deposit 50 dollars and post a 10k winner screen shot. But I would think that the small depositor would always look for a bonus, and then be forced into extreme conditions regardless of what happens early on during any given session making it hard to grab something.

Although presently down between poker rooms, and casinos, now over 15k for this year, I also made withdrawals this year totaling 25k. That means for the year I had to deposit around 40k. This was a bad year for me, but overall I'm still safely ahead over the last 5 years.

So has you could see I paid for a great deal of site time. If I took 1500 dollars in bonuses during the whole year that would be a lot. During my sessions which are usually never under an hour, I've had some that could go on for days. I think it would be obvious that the more you deposit the more time you have to play, and the better chance of the occasional shot in the arm session we all are waiting for. In addition I'm predominantly a video poker player.

As far as the setting's on the RTP %, I feel that as long as their all somewhere in the 90's I think that's fair. But if someone get's special treatment as CasinoJack mentioned and offered, then we have a whole different issue.

 

[vegetagirl2008]

On a good day without bonuses how much does the average person need to deposit in order to win anything. I'm known to deposit at least 300 but not in one session either..I break it up in little deposits.

 

[Mavin1]

Thanks 4 of a Kind, I am still in the learning process on many aspects of online gaming that I never considered before when the return was better for even the small player. But since things are changing, guess I need to as well.

So if the RTP is in the 90% range is this the same meaning as RNG? I wondered since I it was mentioned that maybe I meant RTP rather than RNG.

If I do go back to gaming at some time I would like to be better prepared if that is possible and have a better understanding how RTP can affect the play of a small depositor like myself that prefers not to use bonuses to boost my bankroll.

Or will most of us only have a decent session when......

 

[SlotKing]

Thanks 4 of a Kind, I am still in the learning process on many aspects of online gaming that I never considered before when the return was better for even the small player. But since things are changing, guess I need to as well.

So if the RTP is in the 90% range is this the same meaning as RNG? I wondered since I it was mentioned that maybe I meant RTP rather than RNG.

If I do go back to gaming at some time I would like to be better prepared if that is possible and have a better understanding how RTP can affect the play of a small depositor like myself that prefers not to use bonuses to boost my bankroll.

Or will most of us only have a decent session when......

Mavin...

RTP = Return to player
RNG = Random Number Generator

The RNG is the mechanism that casinos use to determine the results of spins, cards, etc. These two terms aren't interchangeable. The RTP is the measurement of how much money is returned to the player versus how much is wagered.

RTP is mainly a theoretical number. Most sessions are determined by the RNG, sheer coincidence and luck.

When a slot is "high variance" for example, the slot, over the course of the machine's useful life, will produce fewer, but usually larger wins. On the flip side, a "low variance" machine, over the course of the machine's life, will usually produce much more frequent wins, although at lower payouts.

I would chalk your sessions up, at the time you play them, to luck, but as a whole, when combined, over a significant play time amount (probably about a 6-month span at the earliest), should be within a few percentage points of the machine's theoretical RTP.

 

[NicolasJohnson]

So if the RTP is in the 90% range is this the same meaning as RNG?

Ok, I think there are a few terms that are being mixed here, so let me clear this out:

RTP = Return to player. It is also known as payout percentage. It is generally represented in a percentage, like 95% (general average slot payout for most casino software). This means that for every $1 you put in, you can expect to get $0.95 back on average.

RNG = Random Number Generator. This is a mechanism to generate random results.

Variance: The deviation from expected return.


This all can best be represented in the following image:

I'll try to explain it also with coin tosses.

Say you are going to make 10 groups of coin toses with 6 toses each right?

Ok, the action of tosing the coin in the air and flipping it is what creates randomness.

The 50/50 chance of one side comming up is the expected return (so expected return is 3 heads, 3 tails in each of the 10 groups).

Variance is the amount your return changes (or varies) from the expected return (say you got 4 heads 2 tails on your first, 3 tails 3 heads on second, 1 head 5 tails on 3rd, etc).



RNG and variance go hand in hand. You can't have something random without variance, and a casino can't be a casino without having an RNG.

The RTP, or payout % is something that not only can change from casino to casino, but from game to game. For example, Blackjack has a better RTP or payout % then any slot. I hope that helps! :notworthy

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Regal Affiliates Manager

 

[silcnlayc]

NicolasJohnson: Ok, I think there are a few terms that are being mixed here, so let me clear this out:

RTP = Return to player. It is also known as payout percentage. It is generally represented in a percentage, like 95% (general average slot payout for most casino software). This means that for every $1 you put in, you can expect to get $0.95 back on average.

RNG = Random Number Generator. This is a mechanism to generate random results.

Variance: The deviation from expected return.

Thank you for breaking that down in laymans language..I actually understood it .

Now as to the RTP...I believe this to be the issue in the games lately since this is not happening at the casinos anymore..at the level they are claiming..

How many 20-55% sessions will it take to make one session close to the 90%-97% they claim???

The average lately in the last few months for many players is averaging around 60% so where is the other 30+% going??? If you read in these forums, I do not think we have seen but one person saying that they are over the RTP on ONE game only...nowhere do you see people excitedly saying....yeahhh! I hit 95% today (I would be the first to cheer if I ever came close to this at any casino for a few sessions).....all you ever hear about anymore is that they are getting back about 20-50% RTP..on almost all sessions...

So, what has changed???

.

 

[NicolasJohnson]

Thank you for breaking that down in laymans language..I actually understood it .

Now as to the RTP...I believe this to be the issue in the games lately since this is not happening at the casinos anymore..at the level they are claiming..

How many 20-55% sessions will it take to make one session close to the 90%-97% they claim???

The average lately in the last few months for many players is averaging around 60% so where is the other 30+% going??? If you read in these forums, I do not think we have seen but one person saying that they are over the RTP on ONE game only...nowhere do you see people excitedly saying....yeahhh! I hit 95% today (I would be the first to cheer if I ever came close to this at any casino for a few sessions).....all you ever hear about anymore is that they are getting back about 20-50% RTP..on almost all sessions...

So, what has changed???

.

Ok, I can't answer for other casinos. I can only answer for Vegas Regal Casino, one of many Rival Powered Casinos.

And to be 100% honest, nothing has changed with us.

Our payout %s are the same, you can find them by going to the help area of each game.

We have plenty of winners who deposit small amounts and win HUGE amounts (just the other day I saw a $12k winner on a $50 deposit). That is what happens with high variance slots.

And the reason you hear more people complain then they do rave, is because that is human nature. Marketing statistics confirm that it is much more likely for a person with a bad experience to post a bad review, then it is for a person with a good experience to post a good review.

I'm not blaming anyone with saying that... it is simply a relevant statistic.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Regal Affiliates Manager

 

[NicolasJohnson]

Thank you for breaking that down in laymans language..I actually understood it .

Now as to the RTP...I believe this to be the issue in the games lately since this is not happening at the casinos anymore..at the level they are claiming..

How many 20-55% sessions will it take to make one session close to the 90%-97% they claim???

The average lately in the last few months for many players is averaging around 60% so where is the other 30+% going??? If you read in these forums, I do not think we have seen but one person saying that they are over the RTP on ONE game only...nowhere do you see people excitedly saying....yeahhh! I hit 95% today (I would be the first to cheer if I ever came close to this at any casino for a few sessions).....all you ever hear about anymore is that they are getting back about 20-50% RTP..on almost all sessions...

So, what has changed???

.

Ok, I can't answer for other casinos. I can only answer for Vegas Regal Casino, one of many Rival Powered Casinos.

And to be 100% honest, nothing has changed with us.

Our payout %s are the same, you can find them by going to the help area of each game.

We have plenty of winners who deposit small amounts and win HUGE amounts (just the other day I saw a $12k winner on a $50 deposit). That is what happens with high variance slots.

And the reason you hear more people complain then they do rave, is because that is human nature. Marketing statistics confirm that it is much more likely for a person with a bad experience to post a bad review, then it is for a person with a good experience to post a good review.

I'm not blaming anyone with saying that... it is simply a relevant statistic.

P.S. also remember that 95% payout rate isn't on a session, but on a single bet. So if you take your dollar and bet once you should have 95cents, bet again and it will be down to 90 cents and 3/4, bet it again and you are down to... and so on.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Regal Affiliates Manager

 

[Mavin1]

Thank you for breaking that down in laymans language..I actually understood it .

Now as to the RTP...I believe this to be the issue in the games lately since this is not happening at the casinos anymore..at the level they are claiming..

How many 20-55% sessions will it take to make one session close to the 90%-97% they claim???

The average lately in the last few months for many players is averaging around 60% so where is the other 30+% going??? If you read in these forums, I do not think we have seen but one person saying that they are over the RTP on ONE game only...nowhere do you see people excitedly saying....yeahhh! I hit 95% today (I would be the first to cheer if I ever came close to this at any casino for a few sessions).....all you ever hear about anymore is that they are getting back about 20-50% RTP..on almost all sessions...

So, what has changed???

.

I keep running out of thanks you's, so you get a personal one Silc .

I am getting some very good info here which does clear up what the meanings are, but like you said Silc, what has changed? Your point is exactly what I am wondering and I couldn't have said it better.

Has the cost of playing been increased along with gas, groceries, housing and such, where the consumer is getting gouged now even in our entertainment?

 

[Mavin1]

Ok, I can't answer for other casinos. I can only answer for Vegas Regal Casino, one of many Rival Powered Casinos.

And to be 100% honest, nothing has changed with us.

Our payout %s are the same, you can find them by going to the help area of each game.
We have plenty of winners who deposit small amounts and win HUGE amounts (just the other day I saw a $12k winner on a $50 deposit). That is what happens with high variance slots.

And the reason you hear more people complain then they do rave, is because that is human nature. Marketing statistics confirm that it is much more likely for a person with a bad experience to post a bad review, then it is for a person with a good experience to post a good review.

I'm not blaming anyone with saying that... it is simply a relevant statistic.

P.S. also remember that 95% payout rate isn't on a session, but on a single bet. So if you take your dollar and bet once you should have 95cents, bet again and it will be down to 90 cents and 3/4, bet it again and you are down to... and so on.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Regal Affiliates Manager

Hi Nicholas and thank you. Could you possibly post an example of a payout % page for a slot just to have in this thread, I think it would be helpful since I have no casinos on my pc at this time to look at one.

 

[Mavin1]

I truly believe that to even have a consistent chance online you pretty much need a decent bankroll. Not that the small depositor couldn't deposit 50 dollars and post a 10k winner screen shot. But I would think that the small depositor would always look for a bonus, and then be forced into extreme conditions regardless of what happens early on during any given session making it hard to grab something.

Although presently down between poker rooms, and casinos, now over 15k for this year, I also made withdrawals this year totaling 25k. That means for the year I had to deposit around 40k. This was a bad year for me, but overall I'm still safely ahead over the last 5 years.

So has you could see I paid for a great deal of site time. If I took 1500 dollars in bonuses during the whole year that would be a lot. During my sessions which are usually never under an hour, I've had some that could go on for days. I think it would be obvious that the more you deposit the more time you have to play, and the better chance of the occasional shot in the arm session we all are waiting for. In addition I'm predominantly a video poker player.

As far as the setting's on the RTP %, I feel that as long as their all somewhere in the 90's I think that's fair. But if someone get's special treatment as CasinoJack mentioned and offered, then we have a whole different issue.

Yes, I agree with this statement and I also think the size of the bankroll required to have decent sessions today as one would have several years ago is getting bigger, making the challenge to find the pleasure in playing for the small depositor ever greater.

 

[SlotKing]

Hi Nicholas and thank you. Could you possibly post an example of a payout % page for a slot just to have in this thread, I think it would be helpful since I have no casinos on my pc at this time to look at one.

If you go

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

, you can check out the overall totals for every game at 3Dice... there is also some very interesting info on other things listed at this page.

 

[vegetagirl2008]

If you go

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

, you can check out the overall totals for every game at 3Dice... there is also some very interesting info on other things listed at this page.

Have you personally won off these stats that are on the site based on the percentage given?

 

[SlotKing]

Have you personally won off these stats that are on the site based on the percentage given?

I sure have...

Under Payola...

2009-02-14 06:42 Kris Kringle bet X 528

This win produced this...

 

[SlotKing]

And, my most recent session a couple days ago, produced an RTP on approximately 1,000 spins of Payola at $1 each of about 109%. I still busted out, but I had a great time playing for the longest I have in a while.

I almost exclusively play at 3Dice for two reasons...

1. The payouts are ridiculously quick.

2. I'm a fan of uniqueness... which every slot at 3Dice is to me.


I know... I sound like a marketing tool for them, but IMO, it's the truth - it's the best place to play at for the value I receive.

 

[vegetagirl2008]

I sure have...

Under Payola...

2009-02-14 06:42 Kris Kringle bet X 528

This win produced this...

Nice win though I will never see that nice none the less. So you played the max and your deposit must of been maybe 200 or less.

 

[SlotKing]

Nice win though I will never see that nice none the less. So you played the max and your deposit must of been maybe 200 or less.

My deposit the day before was $150.... I had worked it up to $1000, then reversed $200... the $33 left in the balance was the remainder of that $200 that I had reversed.

 

[silcnlayc]

SlotKing: sure have...

Under Payola...

2009-02-14 06:42 Kris Kringle bet X 528

This win produced this...

And how many of us "average joes" can afford to play $15 bucks a spin...really, (it is almost a slap in the face to show this) that isn't even comprehensible for 99.9% of us ...and I guess that is where our RTP goes...and why our RTP is so low...for the average joe..

I know... I sound like a marketing tool for them, but IMO, it's the truth - it's the best place to play at for the value I receive.

YES...i GUESS...

.

 

[vegetagirl2008]

I think what Mavin is trying to say is. Despite the fact the RTP percentages are somewhat in the favor of the player, but in fact when one chooses to play they do not see the RTP of 95% or slightly lower in actually gameplay. Its almost non-existent. But if we were to play max bet we are surely going to lose our money quicker then the IRS sending out audit notices.

 

[SlotKing]

And how many of us "average joes" can afford to play $15 bucks a spin...really, (it is almost a slap in the face to show this) that isn't even comprehensible for 99.9% of us ...and I guess that is where our RTP goes...and why our RTP is so low...for the average joe..

Silc...

The ONLY reason I was playing such a monstrous bet is because, if you had read the post after that, I had a cushion of $1000 to back up the bets I was making... that was the first time I had ever played max bet on that game and it rewarded me handsomely...

I am just the same "average joe" as everyone else - I deposit small amounts and play low.... If I am on a hot streak, I will up my bets, searching for the huge wins... I just happened to hit that on a max bet... that's all.

 

[Mavin1]

SlotKing obviously got very lucky being able to bet and hit that way and yes it can happen to anyone of us, although I would be running off with the $1,000 like a cat that swallowed the canary.

But we still can't ignore the fact that these types of wins or even mediocre wins to keep a person playing for longer than 10 minutes is getting very rare.
So no matter how the RTP's are calculated I honestly don't think they are an accurate reflection of the true playing picture for most players.

Maybe instead of the RTP being set to give loads of 4-5 like symbols on a winning payline, now what the player gets is the 1-3 like symbols on a winning playline much more than ever before thus dolling out more nickel and dime wins to balance out the decreased $1+ wins which will still reflect the same RTP as usual, with no noticeable changes in the public stats, as they are probably figured as a whole instead of an individual return per player. i.e. RTP's (players) instead of RTP (player).

 

[KasinoKing]

The average lately in the last few months for many players is averaging around 60% so where is the other 30+% going??? If you read in these forums, I do not think we have seen but one person saying that they are over the RTP on ONE game only...nowhere do you see people excitedly saying....yeahhh! I hit 95% today (I would be the first to cheer if I ever came close to this at any casino for a few sessions).....all you ever hear about anymore is that they are getting back about 20-50% RTP..on almost all sessions....

I just did a total round-up of all my play on Rival casinos:-
Total Deposited:- $4,750
Total withdrawn:- $7,240
(Remember I always play with bonuses - those deposits gave me $6,554 more to start my play with!).

More than half my deposits resulted in total blow-outs.
But several GREAT results from individual bonuses boosted my profit, notably:-
Sloto'Cash; $100 in, $600 out and $125 in, $625 out.
Irish Luck; $200 in, $2,550 out.
Vegas Sky; $150 in. $1,400 out.

Hi Nicholas and thank you. Could you possibly post an example of a payout % page for a slot just to have in this thread, I think it would be helpful since I have no casinos on my pc at this time to look at one.

You can see the payout % of ALL Rival slots on one page

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

.
(The "Return" column - on the far right of the first table)
They are nearly all 96%.

KK

 

[Mavin1]

Thanks KK, you certainly do your homework! I suppose one of the disadvantages I do cause for myself is not taking deposit bonuses. Therefore having a smaller bankroll to work with like $25 to $50 per session. It is difficult for me to want to use bonuses as years ago I didn't need to and still could play for a good length of time. Plus had a bad experience with a bonus from Coolcat, which was my fault, for at the time I didn't familiarize myself with the terms, plus this was well before knowing this casino group is Rogue. I had hit the jackpot on the nickel slot Diamond Mine Deluxe and won $4,000, put in for a withdrawal as I had made my WR and only received $250 as the bonus only allowed a 10x max cashout on my $25 deposit. That was a tough lesson to learn. So since then I try to muddle along without the bonuses. But now I do have a much better understanding of T&C's and maybe should consider using deposit bonuses since my deposits are so small anyways.

I do understand what all of you have said about the RNG's, Variances and RTP's. So I guess for the small budget player we do have to learn a different strategy to still get some quality time on the small amount of money we are able to spend.

I have checked out the chart for the RTP in your link. Does it stay current or is this a set example? Do the RTP's fluctuate in a given range, if so how low can they fluctuate or how high? I also notice a couple that are 94% is this considered High Variance and do they go lower than 94%?

Maybe a better title for this thread would have been, "How to make friends with that Damn RTP".

 

[KasinoKing]

I have checked out the chart for the RTP in your link. Does it stay current or is this a set example? Do the RTP's fluctuate in a given range, if so how low can they fluctuate or how high? I also notice a couple that are 94% is this considered High Variance and do they go lower than 94%?

You're nearly there, but still not quite getting this. RTP has absolutely nothing to do with variance.

The RTP % is what you would get back from the slot in the long run.
e.g. If you could afford to do 1,000,000 spins at $1 on a slot with an RTP of 95%, at the end you should have $950,000 left.

Now just suppose on every one of those 1,000,000 spins you won 95c, you would still end up with $950,000 (95% RTP), but that would be the lowest variance possible.

Conversely, suppose it was a "Jackpot only" machine, and 999,999 of your spins returned $0, but you won $950,000 on just 1 spin. You would still end up with $950,000 (95% RTP), but that would be the highest variance possible.

Variance = swings in fortune = lots of little wins (low) or just a few big wins (high).

The RTP % figures on my site were taken manually from various Rival casinos.
I don't check them very often, so it is possible some could be wrong if Rival have changed the games since they were first released. (Or if there was a cock-up in writing the rules pages - I would not be a tiny bit surprised as they are notoriously incompetent in this department! )
They should never fluctuate. If these slots are truly random, then the RPT is a fixed figure based on playing an infinite number of spins.
It can never change, unless the reel layouts, pay-tables, or bonus feature returns are amended.

Theoretically it is better for players if the RTP % is as high as possible.
However because of variance, as explained above, personally I think it would be foolish to only look at and play the highest RTP games.
If you played a very low variance game with a 99% RTP it's unlikely you would ever hit a big enough win to let you quit ahead.
But if you played a very high variance game with say a 93% RTP you have a chance of getting a win which is many 100s x your bet, and so could quit well ahead.

There is no black and white answer.
No-one can say "if you play slot Y with bet size X you will win"
It's all down to personal preference, experience, and most importantly LUCK!

I hope all your luck is the GOOD sort, especially over the Christmas period!

KK