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The Mysterious RTP??????

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by Mavin1, Dec 20, 2009.

    Dec 20, 2009
  1. Mavin1

    Mavin1 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Caregiver/homemaker
    Location:
    Arizona
    Recently I had initiated a thread regarding the RNG's and Variance issues and why I felt it was not playing as advertised. It was later pointed out to me that possibly I meant RTP and this made sense to me as maybe RNG's and Variances can stay the same or go up and down in a given range, but what of the RTP, return to player?

    As I had asked, if the RNG and Variance is the same today as it was 6 years ago, then why is the play different. I know many many people are saying the same thing, you can read it in nearly all threads.
    So I would like to know what is the difference in the RTP now compared to just a couple or few years ago?

    I had read Amatrine's post regarding her bad streak finally breaking after a couple years. But I have to wonder when it's at one of Casino Jacks casino sites. How does a player know these few forum members aren't getting the high setting of the RTP just to retrieve some public positive advertising through forum members? I am glad she has finally gotten some positive return on her deposits, but how long will this last?
    And if a forum member spoke out against the remark Casino Jack publicly stated then how does a player know they won't get the low setting out of spite?
    I personally wouldn't play at his affiliated sites just because of this.
    But obviously this tells me that this casino group for whatever reason is giving the playing public the RTP that all casinos used to give on a regular basis a few years ago.

    And no I don't feel cheated or am having a run of bad luck or any of that other reasoning that is given when there is an inquiry from someone that is fairly new or new to this forum. I have personally dumped all casinos from my pc as I don't trust any of them anymore to give the average small depositor a fair session.

    But it would be interesting to know what is the secret recipe of the RTP?
     
  2. Dec 22, 2009
  3. 4 of a kind

    4 of a kind Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll

    Occupation:
    Trans. Tech
    Location:
    New York

    I truly believe that to even have a consistent chance online you pretty much need a decent bankroll. Not that the small depositor couldn't deposit 50 dollars and post a 10k winner screen shot. But I would think that the small depositor would always look for a bonus, and then be forced into extreme conditions regardless of what happens early on during any given session making it hard to grab something.

    Although presently down between poker rooms, and casinos, now over 15k for this year, I also made withdrawals this year totaling 25k. That means for the year I had to deposit around 40k. This was a bad year for me, but overall I'm still safely ahead over the last 5 years.

    So has you could see I paid for a great deal of site time. If I took 1500 dollars in bonuses during the whole year that would be a lot. During my sessions which are usually never under an hour, I've had some that could go on for days. I think it would be obvious that the more you deposit the more time you have to play, and the better chance of the occasional shot in the arm session we all are waiting for. In addition I'm predominantly a video poker player.

    As far as the setting's on the RTP %, I feel that as long as their all somewhere in the 90's I think that's fair. But if someone get's special treatment as CasinoJack mentioned and offered, then we have a whole different issue.
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. Dec 22, 2009
  5. vegetagirl2008

    vegetagirl2008 Mafia Wars Level 472

    Occupation:
    No Job Here..
    Location:
    Brooklyn, New York, United States
    On a good day without bonuses how much does the average person need to deposit in order to win anything. I'm known to deposit at least 300 but not in one session either..I break it up in little deposits.
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. Dec 22, 2009
  7. Mavin1

    Mavin1 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Caregiver/homemaker
    Location:
    Arizona
    Thanks 4 of a Kind, I am still in the learning process on many aspects of online gaming that I never considered before when the return was better for even the small player. But since things are changing, guess I need to as well.

    So if the RTP is in the 90% range is this the same meaning as RNG? I wondered since I it was mentioned that maybe I meant RTP rather than RNG.

    If I do go back to gaming at some time I would like to be better prepared if that is possible and have a better understanding how RTP can affect the play of a small depositor like myself that prefers not to use bonuses to boost my bankroll.

    Or will most of us only have a decent session when......
     
  8. Dec 22, 2009
  9. SlotKing

    SlotKing Experienced Member PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    Building the Best Vehicles On Earth... Ford Escape
    Location:
    Kentucky, ya'll...
    Mavin...

    RTP = Return to player
    RNG = Random Number Generator

    The RNG is the mechanism that casinos use to determine the results of spins, cards, etc. These two terms aren't interchangeable. The RTP is the measurement of how much money is returned to the player versus how much is wagered.

    RTP is mainly a theoretical number. Most sessions are determined by the RNG, sheer coincidence and luck.

    When a slot is "high variance" for example, the slot, over the course of the machine's useful life, will produce fewer, but usually larger wins. On the flip side, a "low variance" machine, over the course of the machine's life, will usually produce much more frequent wins, although at lower payouts.

    I would chalk your sessions up, at the time you play them, to luck, but as a whole, when combined, over a significant play time amount (probably about a 6-month span at the earliest), should be within a few percentage points of the machine's theoretical RTP.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2009
    1 person likes this.
  10. Dec 22, 2009
  11. NicolasJohnson

    NicolasJohnson Dormant account

    Location:
    A Place
    Ok, I think there are a few terms that are being mixed here, so let me clear this out:

    RTP = Return to player. It is also known as payout percentage. It is generally represented in a percentage, like 95% (general average slot payout for most casino software). This means that for every $1 you put in, you can expect to get $0.95 back on average.

    RNG = Random Number Generator. This is a mechanism to generate random results.

    Variance: The deviation from expected return.


    This all can best be represented in the following image:

    [​IMG]


    I'll try to explain it also with coin tosses.

    Say you are going to make 10 groups of coin toses with 6 toses each right?

    Ok, the action of tosing the coin in the air and flipping it is what creates randomness.

    The 50/50 chance of one side comming up is the expected return (so expected return is 3 heads, 3 tails in each of the 10 groups).

    Variance is the amount your return changes (or varies) from the expected return (say you got 4 heads 2 tails on your first, 3 tails 3 heads on second, 1 head 5 tails on 3rd, etc).



    RNG and variance go hand in hand. You can't have something random without variance, and a casino can't be a casino without having an RNG.

    The RTP, or payout % is something that not only can change from casino to casino, but from game to game. For example, Blackjack has a better RTP or payout % then any slot. I hope that helps! :notworthy

    Kind Regards,
    Nicolas Johnson
    Regal Affiliates Manager
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2009
    2 people like this.
  12. Dec 22, 2009
  13. silcnlayc

    silcnlayc Just one more spin pleez! CAG MM PABnonaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    IT Director of Operations
    Location:
    Left Hungary
    Thank you for breaking that down in laymans language..I actually understood it :D .

    Now as to the RTP...I believe this to be the issue in the games lately since this is not happening at the casinos anymore..at the level they are claiming..

    How many 20-55% sessions will it take to make one session close to the 90%-97% they claim???

    The average lately in the last few months for many players is averaging around 60% so where is the other 30+% going??? If you read in these forums, I do not think we have seen but one person saying that they are over the RTP on ONE game only...nowhere do you see people excitedly saying....yeahhh! I hit 95% today (I would be the first to cheer if I ever came close to this at any casino for a few sessions).....all you ever hear about anymore is that they are getting back about 20-50% RTP..on almost all sessions...

    So, what has changed???

    .
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Dec 22, 2009
  15. NicolasJohnson

    NicolasJohnson Dormant account

    Location:
    A Place
    Ok, I can't answer for other casinos. I can only answer for Vegas Regal Casino, one of many Rival Powered Casinos.

    And to be 100% honest, nothing has changed with us.

    Our payout %s are the same, you can find them by going to the help area of each game.

    We have plenty of winners who deposit small amounts and win HUGE amounts (just the other day I saw a $12k winner on a $50 deposit). That is what happens with high variance slots.

    And the reason you hear more people complain then they do rave, is because that is human nature. Marketing statistics confirm that it is much more likely for a person with a bad experience to post a bad review, then it is for a person with a good experience to post a good review.

    I'm not blaming anyone with saying that... it is simply a relevant statistic.

    Kind Regards,
    Nicolas Johnson
    Regal Affiliates Manager
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. Dec 22, 2009
  17. NicolasJohnson

    NicolasJohnson Dormant account

    Location:
    A Place
    Ok, I can't answer for other casinos. I can only answer for Vegas Regal Casino, one of many Rival Powered Casinos.

    And to be 100% honest, nothing has changed with us.

    Our payout %s are the same, you can find them by going to the help area of each game.

    We have plenty of winners who deposit small amounts and win HUGE amounts (just the other day I saw a $12k winner on a $50 deposit). That is what happens with high variance slots.

    And the reason you hear more people complain then they do rave, is because that is human nature. Marketing statistics confirm that it is much more likely for a person with a bad experience to post a bad review, then it is for a person with a good experience to post a good review.

    I'm not blaming anyone with saying that... it is simply a relevant statistic.

    P.S. also remember that 95% payout rate isn't on a session, but on a single bet. So if you take your dollar and bet once you should have 95cents, bet again and it will be down to 90 cents and 3/4, bet it again and you are down to... and so on.

    Kind Regards,
    Nicolas Johnson
    Regal Affiliates Manager
     
    1 person likes this.
  18. Dec 22, 2009
  19. Mavin1

    Mavin1 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Caregiver/homemaker
    Location:
    Arizona


    I keep running out of thanks you's, so you get a personal one Silc ;).

    I am getting some very good info here which does clear up what the meanings are, but like you said Silc, what has changed? Your point is exactly what I am wondering and I couldn't have said it better.

    Has the cost of playing been increased along with gas, groceries, housing and such, where the consumer is getting gouged now even in our entertainment? :what:
     
  20. Dec 22, 2009
  21. Mavin1

    Mavin1 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Caregiver/homemaker
    Location:
    Arizona
    Hi Nicholas and thank you. Could you possibly post an example of a payout % page for a slot just to have in this thread, I think it would be helpful since I have no casinos on my pc at this time to look at one.
     
  22. Dec 22, 2009
  23. Mavin1

    Mavin1 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Caregiver/homemaker
    Location:
    Arizona
    Yes, I agree with this statement and I also think the size of the bankroll required to have decent sessions today as one would have several years ago is getting bigger, making the challenge to find the pleasure in playing for the small depositor ever greater.
     
  24. Dec 22, 2009
  25. SlotKing

    SlotKing Experienced Member PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    Building the Best Vehicles On Earth... Ford Escape
    Location:
    Kentucky, ya'll...

    If you go You must register/login in order to see the link., you can check out the overall totals for every game at 3Dice... there is also some very interesting info on other things listed at this page.
     
    1 person likes this.
  26. Dec 22, 2009
  27. vegetagirl2008

    vegetagirl2008 Mafia Wars Level 472

    Occupation:
    No Job Here..
    Location:
    Brooklyn, New York, United States
    Have you personally won off these stats that are on the site based on the percentage given?
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2009
    1 person likes this.
  28. Dec 22, 2009
  29. SlotKing

    SlotKing Experienced Member PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    Building the Best Vehicles On Earth... Ford Escape
    Location:
    Kentucky, ya'll...
    I sure have...

    Under Payola...

    2009-02-14 06:42 Kris Kringle bet X 528

    This win produced this...
     
    1 person likes this.
  30. Dec 22, 2009
  31. SlotKing

    SlotKing Experienced Member PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    Building the Best Vehicles On Earth... Ford Escape
    Location:
    Kentucky, ya'll...
    And, my most recent session a couple days ago, produced an RTP on approximately 1,000 spins of Payola at $1 each of about 109%. I still busted out, but I had a great time playing for the longest I have in a while.

    I almost exclusively play at 3Dice for two reasons...

    1. The payouts are ridiculously quick.

    2. I'm a fan of uniqueness... which every slot at 3Dice is to me.


    I know... I sound like a marketing tool for them, but IMO, it's the truth - it's the best place to play at for the value I receive.
     
    1 person likes this.
  32. Dec 22, 2009
  33. vegetagirl2008

    vegetagirl2008 Mafia Wars Level 472

    Occupation:
    No Job Here..
    Location:
    Brooklyn, New York, United States
    Nice win though I will never see that nice none the less. So you played the max and your deposit must of been maybe 200 or less.
     
    1 person likes this.
  34. Dec 22, 2009
  35. SlotKing

    SlotKing Experienced Member PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    Building the Best Vehicles On Earth... Ford Escape
    Location:
    Kentucky, ya'll...
    My deposit the day before was $150.... I had worked it up to $1000, then reversed $200... the $33 left in the balance was the remainder of that $200 that I had reversed.
     
    1 person likes this.
  36. Dec 22, 2009
  37. silcnlayc

    silcnlayc Just one more spin pleez! CAG MM PABnonaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    IT Director of Operations
    Location:
    Left Hungary
    And how many of us "average joes" can afford to play $15 bucks a spin...really, (it is almost a slap in the face to show this) that isn't even comprehensible for 99.9% of us ...and I guess that is where our RTP goes...and why our RTP is so low...for the average joe..
    YES...i GUESS...

    .
     
    1 person likes this.
  38. Dec 22, 2009
  39. vegetagirl2008

    vegetagirl2008 Mafia Wars Level 472

    Occupation:
    No Job Here..
    Location:
    Brooklyn, New York, United States
    I think what Mavin is trying to say is. Despite the fact the RTP percentages are somewhat in the favor of the player, but in fact when one chooses to play they do not see the RTP of 95% or slightly lower in actually gameplay. Its almost non-existent. But if we were to play max bet we are surely going to lose our money quicker then the IRS sending out audit notices.
     
    1 person likes this.

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