The Future of the European Union

geordiecolin

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It appears to me that EU members who have been most effected by this Coronavirus are deeply unhappy about the lack of involvement by the EU who seem more preoccupied with talks with smaller nations joining the EU.
For me it seems like a big shift is happening when its not just Brexiteers critisizing the EU but its own member states. And their pleading and warnings seem to be quite blunt.
Italy are screaming out for assitance from the EU "Today the EU does not have the means to respond to the crisis in a united front. If it does not prove to exist it will cease to exist" Was part of a letter to the EU from all colours of the Italian political class. This as well as Italy harking back to the end of the 2nd WW where Germany where bailed out. ( Because the Germans know that they will eventually be responsible for picking up the bill with a few other EU Members)
Following this a very pro EU ex Italian Prime minister Enrico Letta ( Sp?) Has stated " When you are on the Titanic there is no such thing as third class or first class- Your all going down together"
Portugal are also upset that the EU are refusing to dip into their coffers.In fact at least 9 EU member states are clammering for the EU to help them out but they have been turned away,specifically by Germany, Austria,Finland and the Dutch.
The Dutch have stated that "It would cross the line into a eurozone which is more of a transfer union than was envisioned by its creators! I can not see any circumstances in which we could change that position"- So as far as I can see that is a huge "Feck off,your not getting any of our reserves"
The Spanish PM said
" Europe is on the line. It can not fail on this because even the most pro-European Countries and Governments like Spain need proof of a commitment. It's Europes move"
The EU's response is " EU countries should have the economic ability to deal with their own problems"
While this is playing out The French PM wants the EU to have even more control of each member states economy including taxes.

It is my guess that once the crisis is over most Countries will be on their knees. EU Countries will have a choice of either handing over total control over to the EU as they will control the purse strings or they decide to break away and go it alone.

What is the sentiment on the EU in your Country right now?
 

orion

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I can tell you that here in Italy most people I am talking with is losing 100% all trust or confidence on Europe.
At least on THIS Europe where the interests of individual states prevail over the interests of the community.

Many ones say: "ok let's get out of this pandemia first, out of this Europe then".

My personal opinion is that we missed an opportunity some years ago, when Europe could be consolidated by beginnig speaking about a common army, a common tax-scheme, a common welfare, a common language and so on. Nothing was done, Europe was kept just as an economic or financial alliance.

That's not enough, and in the moment of crisis (as the one we are living now) this is becoming evident. Even because there is someone who is trying to take advantage of the situation, rather than trying to help others.

History repeats itself.

It's a pity.
 
V

vorcirion

Guest
It appears to me that EU members who have been most effected by this Coronavirus are deeply unhappy about the lack of involvement by the EU who seem more preoccupied with talks with smaller nations joining the EU.
For me it seems like a big shift is happening when its not just Brexiteers critisizing the EU but its own member states. And their pleading and warnings seem to be quite blunt.
Italy are screaming out for assitance from the EU "Today the EU does not have the means to respond to the crisis in a united front. If it does not prove to exist it will cease to exist" Was part of a letter to the EU from all colours of the Italian political class. This as well as Italy harking back to the end of the 2nd WW where Germany where bailed out. ( Because the Germans know that they will eventually be responsible for picking up the bill with a few other EU Members)
Following this a very pro EU ex Italian Prime minister Enrico Letta ( Sp?) Has stated " When you are on the Titanic there is no such thing as third class or first class- Your all going down together"
Portugal are also upset that the EU are refusing to dip into their coffers.In fact at least 9 EU member states are clammering for the EU to help them out but they have been turned away,specifically by Germany, Austria,Finland and the Dutch.
The Dutch have stated that "It would cross the line into a eurozone which is more of a transfer union than was envisioned by its creators! I can not see any circumstances in which we could change that position"- So as far as I can see that is a huge "Feck off,your not getting any of our reserves"
The Spanish PM said
" Europe is on the line. It can not fail on this because even the most pro-European Countries and Governments like Spain need proof of a commitment. It's Europes move"
The EU's response is " EU countries should have the economic ability to deal with their own problems"
While this is playing out The French PM wants the EU to have even more control of each member states economy including taxes.

It is my guess that once the crisis is over most Countries will be on their knees. EU Countries will have a choice of either handing over total control over to the EU as they will control the purse strings or they decide to break away and go it alone.

What is the sentiment on the EU in your Country right now?

I don't know how to take your post really. It feels like it's coming from a brexiteer who really hates EU or from russian troll farm that's designed to divide people. So I'll just say that we (the finnish people) trust our government and I'll trust that the EU will help its member states after seeing what kind of damage the virus has done to each of the member states.
 

dunover

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The EU in its present form with open borders, Central Bank, colossally expensive parliament and bureaucracy was doomed to failure anyway. It had morphed way away from the vision Thatcher had and indeed was a major force in creating back in the late 1980's, of easy free trade, deregulation and removal of currency restrictions. It worked for a while then from the 1990's we saw creeping political ambition, increase in central powers and removal of sovereignty from member states to a large extent. This was allowed to grow unchecked, finally giving us the unwieldy, expensive and corrupt pile of crap we have now.
It's not just the UK that's fed up with the whole mess. If it wants to survive it should slim down into a trading bloc with standardized and basic requirements for trade only. Lose the parliament, the committees and open borders stupidity.
 

geordiecolin

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I don't know how to take your post really. It feels like it's coming from a brexiteer who really hates EU or from russian troll farm that's designed to divide people. So I'll just say that we (the finnish people) trust our government and I'll trust that the EU will help its member states after seeing what kind of damage the virus has done to each of the member states.
I have presented the state of play at this time. Does it matter what side of the fence I may be on? The fact is that a lot of questions are being asked from their own EU loving nations
 
V

vorcirion

Guest
I have presented the state of play at this time. Does it matter what side of the fence I may be on? The fact is that a lot of questions are being asked from their own EU loving nations

Of course it matters. It feels like you're on a mission to divide the EU as much as possible. If you're a brexiteer...you just deserve a hard kick in the nuts from the EU so the EU gets what it wants from the UK (and thus helping its member states).

If you're a russian troll then you just deserve a hard kick in the nuts IRL.
 

Playford7

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I don't know how to take your post really. It feels like it's coming from a brexiteer who really hates EU or from russian troll farm that's designed to divide people. So I'll just say that we (the finnish people) trust our government and I'll trust that the EU will help its member states after seeing what kind of damage the virus has done to each of the member states.
Just like they helped Greece...
 

Davey86

They make things hard for us because they can
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Of course it matters. It feels like you're on a mission to divide the EU as much as possible. If you're a brexiteer...you just deserve a hard kick in the nuts from the EU so the EU gets what it wants from the UK (and thus helping its member states).

If you're a russian troll then you just deserve a hard kick in the nuts IRL.
Come back to this thread in 6 months for the state of play within the European Union or what’s left of it! Personally I was remain
 

geordiecolin

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Of course it matters. It feels like you're on a mission to divide the EU as much as possible. If you're a brexiteer...you just deserve a hard kick in the nuts from the EU so the EU gets what it wants from the UK (and thus helping its member states).

If you're a russian troll then you just deserve a hard kick in the nuts IRL.
What possible influence could my opinion have on EU events? It would be a bit difficult to accomodate a kick in the nuts given that I identify as being a Russian Babushka!

babushka_1-t.jpg
 

geordiecolin

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Of course it matters. It feels like you're on a mission to divide the EU as much as possible. If you're a brexiteer...you just deserve a hard kick in the nuts from the EU so the EU gets what it wants from the UK (and thus helping its member states).

If you're a russian troll then you just deserve a hard kick in the nuts IRL.
As we are still stuck with lumping money into the EU the UK is thouroghly entitled to demand financial assistance from the EU too with this crisis
 

TheAddict

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I have presented the state of play at this time. Does it matter what side of the fence I may be on? The fact is that a lot of questions are being asked from their own EU loving nations

Of course it matters. You dared to think out loud about something that on paper doesn't look to good for the EU, and then doubled down by asking other peoples opinion . Be careful who you do that around.
In this case, it activated his NPC automatic response mode which is to start calling you things like a troll, a anti this [EU] or anti thwt whenever possible, and as witnessed, even go as far as to suggest you are a sneaky fuckin russian.
With backup this is extremly effective and will often succeed in shutting down anything that is perceived as a possible threat.

borisbullet.gif
 

Mr_Slot5

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It's as good as finished in its current guise IMO.

This virus has caused an absolute tsunami both socially and politically.
 

ternur

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Bring back national borders. Bring back revaluations of currencies. Dismantle EU.

It would for the best if the rest of the EU nations were to added to The Commonwealth of Nations. I'd vote for that. :rolleyes:
 
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geordiecolin

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Of course it matters. You dared to think out loud about something that on paper doesn't look to good for the EU, and then doubled down by asking other peoples opinion . Be careful who you do that around.
In this case, it activated his NPC automatic response mode which is to start calling you things like a troll, a anti this [EU] or anti thwt whenever possible, and as witnessed, even go as far as to suggest you are a sneaky fuckin russian.
With backup this is extremly effective and will often succeed in shutting down anything that is perceived as a possible threat.

View attachment 126897
It is a more common tactic than many may realise :p
 
V

vorcirion

Guest
It's sort of funny how upset you brexit people were when other people were suggesting doom and gloom for the UK after brexit. Now you're trying to do the same for the EU :p But yeah have at it! I'll keep trusting the EU and you can have this room for your silliness.
One country I would throw out of the EU is Hungary. They've become antidemocratic.
 

Mouche12

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There's some positive news too.

The Netherlands has made the suggestion to a few rich countries to set up a temporary emergency fund to help countries like Italy and Spain deal with the corona crisis. NL's contribution would amount to roughly €1 billion, according to W. Hoekstra, the Dutch Minister of Finance.

Also, the European Commission signaled it’s set to unveil a 100 billion-euro plan to help governments pay companies to keep workers in jobs. It will take the form of a lending scheme underpinned by guarantees from EU member countries, according to a draft document seen by
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.
 

geordiecolin

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It's sort of funny how upset you brexit people were when other people were suggesting doom and gloom for the UK after brexit. Now you're trying to do the same for the EU :p But yeah have at it! I'll keep trusting the EU and you can have this room for your silliness.
One country I would throw out of the EU is Hungary. They've become antidemocratic.
I do not recall much upset from Brexiteers at all. In fact I thought the thread was filled with huge optimism
 

geordiecolin

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There's some positive news too.

The Netherlands has made the suggestion to a few rich countries to set up a temporary emergency fund to help countries like Italy and Spain deal with the corona crisis. NL's contribution would amount to roughly €1 billion, according to W. Hoekstra, the Dutch Minister of Finance.

Also, the European Commission signaled it’s set to unveil a 100 billion-euro plan to help governments pay companies to keep workers in jobs. It will take the form of a lending scheme underpinned by guarantees from EU member countries, according to a draft document seen by
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.
In the form of bonds?
 

geordiecolin

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Prime Minister Rutte now thinks that a gift is preferred over any form of loans. Just transfer the money to countries that need it the most, is his suggestion.
I don't see why they can not simply dip into the reserved of cash they have and give the countries that most need it. It is there money anyway. But they won't do that because they will need that vast wealth in order to keep a stranglehold over those still on their knees after it's all over. As far as I see it also if they sell bonds who will buy them? China?
 

Harry_BKK

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It appears to me that EU members who have been most effected by this Coronavirus are deeply unhappy about the lack of involvement by the EU who seem more preoccupied with talks with smaller nations joining the EU.
For me it seems like a big shift is happening when its not just Brexiteers critisizing the EU but its own member states. And their pleading and warnings seem to be quite blunt.
Italy are screaming out for assitance from the EU "Today the EU does not have the means to respond to the crisis in a united front. If it does not prove to exist it will cease to exist" Was part of a letter to the EU from all colours of the Italian political class. This as well as Italy harking back to the end of the 2nd WW where Germany where bailed out. ( Because the Germans know that they will eventually be responsible for picking up the bill with a few other EU Members)
Following this a very pro EU ex Italian Prime minister Enrico Letta ( Sp?) Has stated " When you are on the Titanic there is no such thing as third class or first class- Your all going down together"
Portugal are also upset that the EU are refusing to dip into their coffers.In fact at least 9 EU member states are clammering for the EU to help them out but they have been turned away,specifically by Germany, Austria,Finland and the Dutch.
The Dutch have stated that "It would cross the line into a eurozone which is more of a transfer union than was envisioned by its creators! I can not see any circumstances in which we could change that position"- So as far as I can see that is a huge "Feck off,your not getting any of our reserves"
The Spanish PM said
" Europe is on the line. It can not fail on this because even the most pro-European Countries and Governments like Spain need proof of a commitment. It's Europes move"
The EU's response is " EU countries should have the economic ability to deal with their own problems"
While this is playing out The French PM wants the EU to have even more control of each member states economy including taxes.

It is my guess that once the crisis is over most Countries will be on their knees. EU Countries will have a choice of either handing over total control over to the EU as they will control the purse strings or they decide to break away and go it alone.

What is the sentiment on the EU in your Country right now?

"It is my guess that once the crisis is over most Countries will be on their knees."

Those countries were on their knees before they joined the EU/adopted the EURO. Portuguese Real, Spanish Peseta, Italian Lira, Greek Drachma, French Franc - none had any weight whatsoever. They got a favourable exchange for a hard currency that is on par with the USD and GBP. That was a real transfer, trillions not the few billions we are talking now to assist in a crisis.

I remember Italy just recently was screaming they do not care about the EU and will increase their debt as much as they want to fulfil their populist election promises, no matter what. Now they want the EU to help. So one day they spit on it, the next day they want help. Which is it?

Spain and Portugal, together with Greece and Italy were always the weaker links in the EU and would run into problems at the smallest onset of a crisis. If you look carefully (all is public information) they are some of the countries who are getting most out of the EU coffers every year anyway. You can always check which year they made a net contribution to the EU budget and if how much that was!!!

The EU will survive just fine, I have no doubt whatsoever. And it is not like they are doing nothing, just go back to the 2008/2009 crisis and check who bailed out all those countries???? Those mechanisms like the ESM are still in place.

But you can follow populist screamers if that is what you prefer.
 
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geordiecolin

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"It is my guess that once the crisis is over most Countries will be on their knees."

Those countries were on their knees before they joined the EU/adopted the EURO. Portuguese Real, Spanish Peseta, Italian Lira, Greek Drachma, French Franc - none had any weight whatsoever. They got a favourable exchange for a hard currency that is on par with the USD and GBP. That was a real transfer, trillions not the few billions we are talking now to assist in a crisis.

I remember Italy just recently was screaming they do not care about the EU and will increase their debt as much as they want to fulfil their populist election promises, no matter what. Now they want the EU to help. So one day they spit on it, the next day they want help. Which is it?

Spain and Portugal, together with Greece and Italy were always the weaker links in the EU and would run into problems at the smallest onset of a crisis. If you look carefully (all is public information) they are some of the countries who are getting most out of the EU coffers every year anyway. You can always check which year they made a net contribution to the EU budget and if how much that was!!!

The EU will survive just fine, I have no doubt whatsoever. And it is not like they are doing nothing, just go back to the 2008/2009 crisis and check who bailed out all those countries???? Those mechanisms like the ESM are still in place.

But you can follow populist screamers if that is what you prefer.
Harry the European Union have many criteria that needs to be met prior to joining the Union. This is why Turkey has not been unsuccessful in joining for over 20 years. All of the Countries you mention met that criteria,including fiscal.
 

Harry_BKK

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Harry the European Union have many criteria that needs to be met prior to joining the Union. This is why Turkey has not been unsuccessful in joining for over 20 years. All of the Countries you mention met that criteria,including fiscal.

And if you go through the history records, some countries weren't exactly truthful with regards to those criteria. That transpired only after they adopted the EURO. Kicking them out again would have been though more devastating, so they were allowed to keep it as the union considered itself strong enough to support them.

Turkey has a lot of other issues than fiscal.
 

mack341

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Coronabonds and the idea of European financial unity
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Deutsche Welle.com

Italian Prime Minister Guiseppe Conte:

"What do we want to do in Europe? Does each member state want to go its own way?" he asked in a televized interview on Tuesday evening, pointing to the huge aid package of $2 trillion the US is using to respond to its own coronavirus crisis.

"If the response is not a common, serious and coordinated response, Europe will become less and less competitive, including in the global market," said Conte. And German taxpayers shouldn't be afraid. Coronabonds did not mean that the Germans "had to pay even a single euro for Italian debt."

During the euro debt crisis around a decade ago, the German government could be sure that most of the leading economists shared their rejection of eurobonds. Now in the coronavirus crisis this is no longer the case.

Seven prominent economists including Michael Hüther, head of the Institute of German Economics (IW), Peter Bofinger, and Gabriel Felbermayr, head of the Kiel Institute for World Economy (IfW), are now drumming publicly for coronabonds.

"The strong have to help the weak. Now is the time when the much-praised community with a common destiny has to show its true colors," wrote the economists in an article that appeared in five European newspapers simultaneously.

Borrowing together 1 trillion euros would be "a clear sign that Europe is in a crisis together." The signal could not be missed. Not a single overwhelmed country would have to apply by itself. "Europeans manage the crisis together," wrote the economists.

...The decisive difference for Hüther is that coronabonds are not permanent, but a one-off solution. There is even a historical example for this, he says. In 1975, the European Community issued a bond to mitigate the effects of the oil price shock. "That was apparently not a problem at the time, why can't we do that in this crisis too?" he asked.

He sees coronabonds as a "litmus test for European solidarity." All countries that are doing badly wonder who is going to help them. "In the end, if it's just the Chinese or maybe the Russians, then I think the breakup of the European Union will be unstoppable." And that cannot be in the interest of the German economy.

"If we don't stabilize Europe, our markets won't be there either," he concluded.


-------------

I wonder what the problem is if the german taxpayer won't end up having to pay italian debt?
 

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