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The $464,000 Bad Beat

Discussion in 'Casino Industry Discussion' started by jerryg, Jul 14, 2007.

    Jul 14, 2007
  1. jerryg

    jerryg Dormant account

    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    That must be an incredible feeling.
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. Jul 14, 2007
  3. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Unbelievable - the stuff dreams are made of! :thumbsup:
     
  4. Jul 14, 2007
  5. pokeraddict

    pokeraddict Webmaster

    Occupation:
    Pro Poker Player
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Too bad it is on one of the shadiest poker rooms on the internet. They are one of the least trusted poker rooms on the net right now outside of Futurebets. Absolute pocketed over $46,000 of that bad beat jackpot. That little tidbit is missing from the release.

    Absolute has changed the terms of the BBJ twice already. They are infamous for changing terms without notice or notification. If you decide to take a shot at the BBJ keep that in mind. Read the terms often.
     
  6. Jul 16, 2007
  7. jerryg

    jerryg Dormant account

    Just because you do not like the terms being changed does not classify a site as being shady. So long as they honor the terms, as they are in place at the time of your play, then they are operating legitimately.

    I've been playing here since they first opened. I don't win every time, but I do profit each month, and have never had any problem with this site at all.

    Simply popping in and labeling a site as being "the shadiest" without providing any substance to back it up is a poor tactic.
     
  8. Jul 16, 2007
  9. pokeraddict

    pokeraddict Webmaster

    Occupation:
    Pro Poker Player
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Well where to start....

    1. In December Absolute retroactively changed bonus terms. This was the second time in 2006 they changed bonus terms on existing bonuses. They even sent out a reload offer the day before the change with the old terms. Bait and switch? They did not even change the terms on their website for several days. They have every right to change bonus terms on new offers but to change existing bonuses players are already clearing is rogue.

    2. In February they changed the formula they use to figure out MGR. Again this would be fine for new players but they did it for players already signed up. They offer to pay affiliates and rakeback players a certain way and once they were signed up they decided they wanted to pay less.

    3. Their management have repeatedly spammed 2+2 as shills. Go search "Pokermachine" at 2+2. He finally admitted he was an AP manager shilling.

    4. AP launched the jackpot and emailed players (and spammed forums) that AAAKK had to lose. The next day 2222 had to lose, a few days later it was 8888. These changes were not emailed to players, at least not to those that post in poker forums. A player could have easily thought he won the jackpot.

    5. Absolute drew out lies to players about cashouts when their EFT processor bailed. Players had money in limbo and were not told the truth about what was going on. Unfortunately many poker rooms acted this way.

    6. AP states in their affiliate agreement that affiliates and rakeback players get a percent of all revenue their players generate. AP keeps 10% of the jackpot. In this last one it was over $56,000. Affiliates and rakeback players do not get their share of this.

    7. Absolute also owns Ultimate Bet. UB changed the terms on affiliates and rakeback players just like Absolute did.

    8. UB also retroactively changed their bonus terms. They went a shadier step then their sister site did though. When players noticed their bonuses were not crediting correctly they emailed support. The terms UB had has for years were still on the site. Support told players it was a bug in an update and to continue to play. When the bug was fixed their bonuses would be credited correctly. A week goes by and UB puts the terms they had been secretly using and refused to even correct the bonuses to players they had been promised by UB.


    Add to this the fact that the BBJ has made anything below 5/10 FL or $400 NL unbeatable. In $100 NL a flop that has 2 players will have a rake of almost 30%. Did you also notice the BBJ has been completely ripped off from Party?

    Is this enough substance? These are off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more. Go hit the zoo and make a poll asking who the shadiest online poker room is. If you leave off the DGN/Futurebet sites I will bet you AP and UB win #1 and #2 in a landslide.
     
    3 people like this.
  10. Jul 16, 2007
  11. pokeraddict

    pokeraddict Webmaster

    Occupation:
    Pro Poker Player
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    I almost forgot. The reason I even checked the thread was to report the big winner in this BBJ has donked off a good chunk of his winnings in 150/300. The estimate is in the last 48 hours he has dropped over $100,000. He has been playing non stop for over 48 hours, surely on a massive tilt.
     
  12. Jul 16, 2007
  13. 1819

    1819 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    retired athlete
    Location:
    ny,nj,fla
    do some homework!
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Jul 16, 2007
  15. EasyRhino

    EasyRhino Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Analyst
    Location:
    San Diego
    Ouch. I really would have thought that the jackpot would have been enough to make anyone take a break.

    Kind of like winning the lotto then buying 2 million lotto tickets.
     
  16. Jul 16, 2007
  17. lots0

    lots0 Banned User - troll posts - flaming PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    I do nothing productive
    Location:
    Hell on Earth
    I don't know why changing the terms on the BBJ should be considered shady or why making a fair profit off of a promotion you set up be considered "shady".

    AP is trying a brand new promotion, I think they were amazed at the amount of "bad beats" that do happen and adjusted the terms accordingly so the Jackpots would really be Jackpots and not just a few extra dollars.

    (AP has paid out three bad beat jackpots since the promotion started the first week of July.)

    And the affiliate does make a cut of the BBJ, as long as the affiliate follows the T&C.

    Sounds to me like someone has a mouth full of sour grapes because AP changed the Bonus structure and AP does not really want bonus players anymore. I did notice that was pokeraddict's first complaint was about the new Bonus set up at AP and not the BBJ...

    I have been playing at Absolute poker since they opened the doors and I have been an affiliate for at least three years and I have never had a problem with AP that was not corrected ASAP by the good folks at Absolute Poker.

    I personally think this Bad Beat Jackpot at AP is one of the coolest things in Online Poker to come around in quite some time.
     
    1 person likes this.
  18. Jul 16, 2007
  19. pokeraddict

    pokeraddict Webmaster

    Occupation:
    Pro Poker Player
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Actually I have not played at AP in 2+ years, the game quality there is among the worst. I work/worked in the industry. When AP changed the bonus terms I took so many complaints from players. As I mentioned they certainly have the right to change their terms on NEW bonuses. If a player is clearing a bonus they accepted under the old terms and suddenly the terms are changed that is shady. The players were not even notified and the website was not updated for days. How can you tell me that isn't shady?

    AP did the same thing with affiliate terms. Even though changing terms on existing players is shady at least they notified affiliates first. Did you know AP deducts deposit fees from players whether they deposit or not? Do you really think that is a fair way to do business? Affiliates agreed to get paid $x for sending AP players, then AP decided that they wanted to pay less even though players were sent to them under certain terms. Honestly I don't care as much that affiliates got screwed there, it is the fact that endless rakeback players got screwed.

    I am NOT an affiliate for AP or any poker room. I don't work for one either. I simply think when a poker room can't keep its word over and over they are rogue. How many times have you seen a complaint about a casino change their T&C's after a player accepts a bonus? That casino is outed as being rogue. Why is it not the same for a poker room?

    As far as the BBJ. Changing the terms on it over and over is by far the least serious of acts AP has done. If they want to charge for the BBJ then advertising "$464,000 BBJ is hit" Is false advertising. The actual BBJ was jut over $324,000. It is still a lot of money but certainly a big difference. I've played a ton of B&M and I've never seen a poker room rake the jackpot. Isn't that what the rake is for? This is just a way for AP to rake the games more in a subtle way.

    Also as an affiliate you get none of that 10% that your players put in. AP will give you a tiny kickback if one of your players is involved in a BBJ. It is nowhere near the amount they rake in off their 10% and their carryover they have a guarantee on.

    Really the main reason I do not like AP has to do with their spamming. When management of casinos or poker rooms shill I call them out and bust them out on it. I've done it here and I've done it at 2+2. It's spam. AP has endlessly spammed 2+2 until one of their board members finaly admitted he was just shilling. Then he came back as another shill. He finally admitted it because he was called out over and over, then he acted like a complete child lowering their reputation even more. If you would like I will post the link. I try to post as few links ot other forums as possible.

    Also it seems the OP is upset because this post is nothing but a link to his AP affiliate link. I notice the same link was posted at Gambling911 by the OP. I'm sure those aren't the only 2 forums that the OP has posted a subtle way to get players to click his affiliate link.

    I have nothing to gain by posting all of these reasons that AP has acted in a less then ethical way. I don't promote any poker room and don't work for anybody that does. I can't think of any other poker room outside of the Futurebets that have acted so unprofessionally though. Try to find this much dishonesty in other poker rooms. I don't think you can.
     
  20. Jul 16, 2007
  21. pokeraddict

    pokeraddict Webmaster

    Occupation:
    Pro Poker Player
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    I too played there since the start. I actually was a prop there back when a 2/4 game would have been a high limit game to them. They helped me get my bankroll started and I thank them for that. That was a much different AP though.

    Why is this cooler then the one that Party has? The idea was stolen directly from them. Everything down to the losing hand and the distribution and the amount of extra rake they keep. Is it because you promote Absolute?

    There are many poker rooms that do not rake extra for their BBJ's and pay them out of the normal rake they take. I would hardly say making most lower limit games unbeatable due to the atrocious rake (as high as 28% in some instances) is the coolest thing to happen in online poker in a long time. We are both entitled to our own opinions though.
     
  22. Jul 16, 2007
  23. pokeraddict

    pokeraddict Webmaster

    Occupation:
    Pro Poker Player
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Out of my own curiosity I created a poll at 2+2 about who is the least trusted poker room. I took the top 7 US friendly poker rooms according to Poker Site Scout. In 159 votes UB, a site owned by Absolute, is winning in a landslide. Full Tilt just had a big scandal involving the locking on tons of 2+2 accounts so they are #2. AP is actually #4 out of 7. I'm a bit surprised about that but I had to think UB would win for sure. FWIW I voted for UB.
     
  24. Jul 17, 2007
  25. jerryg

    jerryg Dormant account

    Then you have no idea what the game quality is. The software is revised on a regular basis, and is nothing like it was when you were a player.

    Yeah, I'm familiar with your forum. I'm not sure I'd classify running a message board as working in the industry, nor does it quantify you as an expert in game quality, but, if you say so. ;)

    Silly me, I thought you worked in the industry. :)

    It would seem that you are babbling without knowing what you're talking about. You obviously did not click on the link if you think it is an AP affiliate link.

    What makes you think they stole it from Party? Do you think Party invented the bad beat jackpot? You haven't been to very many card rooms then. If anyone invented it, it would probably be George Hardy from way back when he was running Commerce Casino in LA.
     
  26. Jul 17, 2007
  27. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    Hi Jerry,

    Pokeraddict has some legitimate gripes here, some of which I was not aware about. No reason to get hyper-sensitive.

    Global Gaming News is your site, right? It's cool to come here and have an open discussion about this event - but it's uncool to come here and just post a link to your site without much explanation.

    BTW - pokeraddict is well versed in the poker field, and I consider him a regional expert in pokerland. He's even written articles for me, and I've met the guy face-to-face more often then I've met you. So yes, I would say he is involved in this industry.

    @pokeraddict - please let the shills at 2+2 know that they are welcome to open an account at Casinomeister and post away. I rather enjoy busting out shills :thumbsup:
     
    1 person likes this.
  28. Jul 17, 2007
  29. lots0

    lots0 Banned User - troll posts - flaming PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    I do nothing productive
    Location:
    Hell on Earth
    Pokeraddict, you did not mention where Absolute Poker was in your poll.:)

    All you mentioned was that Ultimate Bet was leading the pack and they are now owned by Absolute, but that has been a recent take over (AP bought UB within the last two months) and before Absolute Poker took over UB, I would not play at UB or promote them. But now Absoulte Poker has bought them out, I'll wait and see how they do. Chances are once Absolute Management cleans up Ultimate I will start promoting them as well.

    Pokeraddict - I asked you in another thread about you providing proof that Absolute Poker is Spamming as you claim. As I said in that thread, if you can show me where Absolute is sending spam, I will stop promoting them.

    But if you can't provide some proof that Absolute is in fact sending out Spam, you should stop accusing them of it.

    BTW - I do promote Absolute Poker, but if you think these discussions on CM are putting any money in my pocket you are way wrong. This is actually costing me money, I should be taking care of my business instead of speaking up for a poker room I like.

    @CM, I have never met you, so I guess I am not involved in the industry... ;)
     
  30. Jul 17, 2007
  31. lots0

    lots0 Banned User - troll posts - flaming PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    I do nothing productive
    Location:
    Hell on Earth
    I think the start of the "Bad Beat Jackpot" was in the Golden Nugget Casino in Vegas way back in the early 1970's when Steve Wynn owned the Golden Nugget.

    Of course, I could be wrong.:rolleyes:
     
  32. Jul 17, 2007
  33. pokeraddict

    pokeraddict Webmaster

    Occupation:
    Pro Poker Player
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    OK, where to start. I worked as a prop for endless poker rooms (including Absolute). Then I launched Rakerebatereview.com, a rakeback directory and affiliate watchdog site. Then after I sold that site I went to work for BonusWhores.com until those of us involved in the site moved on. Currently I just play poker for a living and mod the forum at 2+2 to continue to help players not get screwed by rogue affiliates. This also provides a place for affiliates to discuss industry issues and helps players find the best deals. Also at BW we ranked rooms by their game quality. We used data we collected ourselves and combined it with data shared by Pokersitescout.com. I certainly saw AP's game quality daily as well as all poker rooms.

    The second paragraph of the press release is "Absolute Poker" hyperlinked with your (or someone's) affiliate link. So yes I did click on the link, IMO it is spam. Your OP was to inform/promote AP and almost certainly to get people to click the link in hopes of them clicking your AP affiliate link. So yes it is a link to your affiliate link.

    No, but AP copied their terms word for word.

    Yes I did "AP is actually #4 out of 7".

    It's in the other thread twice, here it is here.

    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    This is a link to all his posts. His name is Tom, he is VP of Absolute. As you see he endlessly spams UB and AP. Several called him out (including me). He finally admits in his last post that the accusations are true. Of course another spamming account reemerged but was deleted soon after by admins at 2+2.

    Also UB was bought by Absolute in 2006. It was shortly after the UIGEA passed. UB did this to go private so they could accept US players.
    It has been much longer then just a couple of months. If you need I will find the exact date, from a small search it looks like late November 2006. They announced it on October 12th 2006.

    I understand you two promote AP, that's your choice. Obviously one of you at least really enjoys playing there. That is great, everyone has a favorite room. I don't think they are a room that can be trusted and I list many reasons. I have never accused them on non payment and they do have that going for them.

    To ligten up the conversation here is a photo to show that even Absolute doesn't know if they trust themselves. Notice the scrolling text at the bottom of their software.

    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    Like I said before, I don't have a vendetta against them. You guys asked me to provide proof of my accusation and I did. I have certainly posted warnings about other poker rooms too as well as compliments when they are due.

    To CM, thx for the kind words. The AP shiller seems to have retired after being busted out twice. Hopefully he is gone forever.
     
  34. Jul 17, 2007
  35. lots0

    lots0 Banned User - troll posts - flaming PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    I do nothing productive
    Location:
    Hell on Earth
    having multiple threads about the same conversation is no fun at all and very hard to follow, so this will be my last comment about this. I am off to Absolute Poker to play a one table $2.00 "Sit and Go", no chance for the BBJ there. (I am such a whale.)

    As I said in the other thread...
     
  36. Jul 17, 2007
  37. pokeraddict

    pokeraddict Webmaster

    Occupation:
    Pro Poker Player
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Yeah my head is spinning. The forums would be useless if we all had the same opinion wouldn't it?

    I have to disagree with your definition of spam. I'm sure anybody that has ever been involved in a forum would too. Spamming is a commercial post made in a forum where the poster has something to commercialy gain.

    Example

    Somebody owns a poker room, creates an account hiding this fact and says "I love this poker room try it out".

    This is spam IMO.

    If a player that truly loves the room but is not involved in the poker room or an affiliate then that is not spam. At least that is my definition.

    Good luck!
     
  38. Jul 18, 2007
  39. jerryg

    jerryg Dormant account

    Yeah, I usually have too much going on to go socializing at conventions on a free press pass. Either that, or I have too little going on to be concerned with conventions. In either event, they do not typically draw the crowd that is of interest to me, so I wouldn't be surprised if you've met anyone more than you've met me; Elvis included.

    In fact, I think I've only met you once. At the time, you were running around with Mike Craig to tout the OPA, and with big plans of cornering RTG and forcing them to come clean. What funny times.

    As for pokeraddict being involved in the industry, it makes no difference to me if he is or isn't. I just found it humorous that he starts out with grand remarks about working in the industry, but then turned around to say that he does not promote or work for any poker rooms. To me, it made about as much sense as commenting on game quality, while at the same time saying he hadn't played there in years. Although, I have to say that for me personally, there is a difference between "working in the industry" and being a mod on another person's forum, at least in the terms of the way he was presenting himself as an authority.

    Anyway, I am not hyper-sensitive about it, or even plain sensitive. I just find it humorous. It makes no difference to me either way. If he wants to blacklist a site because they change their terms, then that's up to him. I do not personally care what the terms are (or were) for this jackpot, and I think most of the thousands of people playing on that site agree.
     

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