Supernova (Quickspin/MG) - Slot error

ChopleyIOM

Hearthstone Addict
webby
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Location
IOM
Just a heads-up on this slot that it has an error on the pays, at first I thought it was underpaying me but it turns out it's more of a cosmetic error than anything else - took me a while to suss it out, so here you go.

If you're not familiar with the slot it's a 27-way pays three reel slot, with two extra multiplier reels.

The stages of play are:

1) At the start of a spin all five reels spin.
2) If the three main reels don't result in a win, the two multiplier reels immediately stop, the play is over, return to step 1.
3) If the three main reels result in any win, the focus of the game then moves to the first multiplier reel, this can stop on a multiplier of 0x, 2x, 3x, 5x or 10x. If it stops on 0x the win achieved is paid, the play is over, return to step 1.
4) If the first multiplier reel stops on 2x, 3x, 5x or 10x then the win is immediately multiplied, and the focus of play moves to the second multiplier reel, which has the same stops as the first multiplier reel. Whatever the second multiplier reel lands on is acted on, the play is over, return to step 1. (So the best win possible is 100x the original win, if both multiplier reels stop on 10x.)

So then, what's wrong with this slot is that it sometimes gets the multiplier reels the wrong way round.

So for example a win of 50 coins gets a 2x multiplier on the first multiplier reel, but actually gets increased to 150 coins, then the second multiplier reel stops on 3x, but the win is then only increased to 300 coins.

The most common way it gets it wrong is mixing up 2x and 3x multipliers (i.e. 2x is shown but awards 3x, then the second reel shows 3x but only does 2x), the net effect is the win still works out correctly, but it looks wrong.

I've also seen it do it with 2x and 5x, and this is where you'll notice it a lot more. If you don't realise that the 2x actually gave a 5x, then you'll be watching a win apparently hit a 5x multiplier, but it'll only get multiplied at 2x, and you'll think you've been short-changed.

I had one where I thought I was on for a really big win as the second multiplier reel stopped on 5x, and then I was like 'Eh? There's no way that just multiplied 5x!'

If you have a mess around with it in free play, you'll see it yourself sooner or later.

It's no biggy insofar as the slot does pay out correctly, but you may think you're being conned! :)

This screenshot is of it working properly, but imagine the 2x and 5x being swapped around, but the 2x giving 5x, and the 5x giving 2x.
 

Attachments

  • workingcorrectly.jpg
    workingcorrectly.jpg
    74.8 KB · Views: 277

ChopleyIOM

Hearthstone Addict
webby
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Location
IOM
And here's what it looks like when it gets it wrong.

It only ever seems to get it wrong if the first multiplier is 2x, if the first multiplier is 3x, 5x or 10x - it behaves itself.

The win on the three main reels here was 72 coins, the 2x multiplier then landed and multiplied it to 216 coins, which is 3x and not 2x.

Then when the 3x multiplier landed, it multiplied 216 coins to 432 coins, which is 2x and not 3x.

End result is the same though :)

It really jars when it swaps the 2x and 5x around, until you realise that the pay is ultimately the same.

dodgy1.jpg
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
Well, this scratches the old scab concerning videos from online slots. The fact that it still gives the correct amount when 2x comes on the first reel shows that last reel CANNOT be behaving independently and the WHOLE result is preselected and the reels simply an ex post facto graphic. As we know on MG we can tell the result of a spin in advance of the reels moving by simply checking our account balance after pressing start. It's clear this slot has Microgaming written all over it:D:D:lolup:
 

ChopleyIOM

Hearthstone Addict
webby
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Location
IOM
This is quite an interesting slot in that regard, the pay table is incredibly basic (the three low paying symbols all pay the same, and there are only three other symbols besides that), plus with it being a three-reeler, there's quite a limited range of pays it can produce.

Once you've put enough spins through it you'll start to recognise the patterns, and how the two multiplier reels will sort of 'stretch out' to deliver the required result.

They're clearly not real reels anyway, as sometimes you'll see two 10x symbols adjacent to each other when it starts to stop, which you'll never see when they're spinning past normally.

Doesn't bother me, as long as the RNG behind the scenes is totally fair and random, I really don't care how the slot displays the results to me.
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
I think MG must read this forum - remember the issue I pointed out on (S)Hitman, whereby you can see the wild hitman spinning round on reels 1&5 even though he only appears on 2,3,4?? It seems to have been 'fixed' now. Doesn't do it on the download casinos....:)
 

Balthazar

The Governor
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Location
Woodbury
It's a shame that this slot is buggy because I played it in free money mode yesterday and thought it was interesting. It's a mix between Starburst and some old school land based slot with the 2 multiplier reels.

Which the variance would be higher and that all the symbols would pay differently though (that's just lazy programming right there).
 

ChopleyIOM

Hearthstone Addict
webby
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Location
IOM
It's a shame that this slot is buggy because I played it in free money mode yesterday and thought it was interesting. It's a mix between Starburst and some old school land based slot with the 2 multiplier reels.

Which the variance would be higher and that all the symbols would pay differently though (that's just lazy programming right there).

TBH it hasn't stopped me playing it, I don't see it as being buggy from a technical perspective, I think it's just a display error. The entire result of the round is clearly pre-determined and you're just watching the reels stop on what's been decided, as dunover has already pointed out.

Variance is low for sure, but I get the feeling the RTP is high, like the other Quickspin slots. For some reason Rapunzel and Goldilocks (both Quickspin games) have non-MG help files, both of which list the RTP, and both of which are 97.05%, so it's reasonable to assume Supernova is similar.

Top pay on Supernova is theoretically 5400x stake though, assuming it can do a full screen of orange suns on a 10+10 multiplier.
 

zap987

Meister Member
PABnononaccred2
Joined
Jul 22, 2004
Location
Sweden
Obviously a bug but it says nothing about how it works. Lets look at what could happen here:

1. You press spin, your client sends a message to the server with betsize. The time before the server gets this message depends on your connection, but most likely something between 0.05 and 0.2 seconds pass. The client starts spinning the reels, showing whatever spinning reel animations are put in the client. In the case of Hitman they had been sloppy here and used the same animation for all the reels or something similar.

2. The server generates a random number for reel 1, range depends on length of reel. Repeat for reels 2-5. Time spent here would be extremely small, a few microseconds maybe.

3. The server evaluates the result according to the paytable and knows the win. Some more microseconds pass.

4. The server sends the result to the database, stores some information, and updates your account with the new balance. Time spent probably slightly more but still very little, from step 2 to 4 will most likely not take even a tenth of a second.

5. The server sends the result to your client which receives a list of 5 numbers indicating the reel stops.

6. The client stops reel 1 and ends up showing the symbols it stopped on. Repeat for reel 2-3.

7. The client calculates your win so far and shows it in flashy numbers, reels 4-5 keep spinning.

8. It stops reel 4, recalculates win with the value of reel 5 in the cases where reel 5 has a multiplier.

9. It stops reel 5, recalculates win again with value of reel 4, shows final win and updates your overall balance.

Some steps could be done in a different order and the server might send some more information, but what I wanted to show is that this bug shows nothing about what happens on the server. The reels can work just like expected and still produce this bug. The whole spin is finished on the server in a fraction of a second and anything after that is just for show.
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
Obviously a bug but it says nothing about how it works. Lets look at what could happen here:

1. You press spin, your client sends a message to the server with betsize. The time before the server gets this message depends on your connection, but most likely something between 0.05 and 0.2 seconds pass. The client starts spinning the reels, showing whatever spinning reel animations are put in the client. In the case of Hitman they had been sloppy here and used the same animation for all the reels or something similar.

2. The server generates a random number for reel 1, range depends on length of reel. Repeat for reels 2-5. Time spent here would be extremely small, a few microseconds maybe.

3. The server evaluates the result according to the paytable and knows the win. Some more microseconds pass.

4. The server sends the result to the database, stores some information, and updates your account with the new balance. Time spent probably slightly more but still very little, from step 2 to 4 will most likely not take even a tenth of a second.

5. The server sends the result to your client which receives a list of 5 numbers indicating the reel stops.

6. The client stops reel 1 and ends up showing the symbols it stopped on. Repeat for reel 2-3.

7. The client calculates your win so far and shows it in flashy numbers, reels 4-5 keep spinning.

8. It stops reel 4, recalculates win with the value of reel 5 in the cases where reel 5 has a multiplier.

9. It stops reel 5, recalculates win again with value of reel 4, shows final win and updates your overall balance.

Some steps could be done in a different order and the server might send some more information, but what I wanted to show is that this bug shows nothing about what happens on the server. The reels can work just like expected and still produce this bug. The whole spin is finished on the server in a fraction of a second and anything after that is just for show.

I see your idea, but on MG casinos your WHOLE win is calculated and added to your balance immediately, before the reels start spinning. Again, I maintain that in online video slot programming there is absolutely no need to have separate random reel stops - all you need is win amount and an instant graphic generation based on the reel values and win amount, which is what we see on our screens. The graphic can itself be any reel combination that equates to your win, to give the appearance of random reel stops for our benefit.
 

zap987

Meister Member
PABnononaccred2
Joined
Jul 22, 2004
Location
Sweden
I see your idea, but on MG casinos your WHOLE win is calculated and added to your balance immediately, before the reels start spinning. Again, I maintain that in online video slot programming there is absolutely no need to have separate random reel stops - all you need is win amount and an instant graphic generation based on the reel values and win amount, which is what we see on our screens. The graphic can itself be any reel combination that equates to your win, to give the appearance of random reel stops for our benefit.

That is exactly what I'm saying, the win is calculated pretty much instantly when your message with the bet reaches the server, and how it is calculated doesn't really matter for that fact.
As for need to have separate random reel stops, the question is rather why the need for set lists of wins and then picking what combination to show? Go program that version and my version and I'm pretty sure which one will turn out easier to do.
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
That is exactly what I'm saying, the win is calculated pretty much instantly when your message with the bet reaches the server, and how it is calculated doesn't really matter for that fact.
As for need to have separate random reel stops, the question is rather why the need for set lists of wins and then picking what combination to show? Go program that version and my version and I'm pretty sure which one will turn out easier to do.

Because of variance/RTP. The pool of values which the RNG is to choose from is calculated for a TRTP. It is easier to do it his way than have 5 random picks for reel positions after you press start. As for the reels the program simply picks a graphic - say there is a 3-reel 10's win, then any10/any10/any10/any non-consecutive/any non-consecutive.
 

quber

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2004
Location
Europe
Every reel on an online slot machine is separate and they are chosen separately by the RNG, this is the simplest way to program them, the RTP/TRTP are a consequence of reel layouts and paytable. The RTP is tweaked by the designer by adding or removing a symbol from a reel until the desired percentage is reached or by increasing or decreasing the paytable. Most likely a combination of both.

Your way of doing it Dunover just makes the whole process a lot more complex than it ever needs to be.
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
Every reel on an online slot machine is separate and they are chosen separately by the RNG, this is the simplest way to program them, the RTP/TRTP are a consequence of reel layouts and paytable. The RTP is tweaked by the designer by adding or removing a symbol from a reel until the desired percentage is reached or by increasing or decreasing the paytable. Most likely a combination of both.

Your way of doing it Dunover just makes the whole process a lot more complex than it ever needs to be.

I don't see how 'my way' of doing it would be more complicated. I use one RNG pick not 5. Instead of messing with reel graphics and adding/moving symbols or changing their values, all I need to do is make an adjustment to the pool of values the RNG picks from, so all the reels/symbols/payouts remain the same, just less/more of certain wins available in the RNG pool to increase/descrease the TRTP. Simples.
 

quber

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2004
Location
Europe
I don't see how 'my way' of doing it would be more complicated. I use one RNG pick not 5. Instead of messing with reel graphics and adding/moving symbols or changing their values, all I need to do is make an adjustment to the pool of values the RNG picks from, so all the reels/symbols/payouts remain the same.

So are you saying that if the top win is won that is taken out of the pool and cannot be won on the next spin? or is it immediately put back in the pool to be available for the next spin?

just less/more of certain wins available in the RNG pool to increase/descrease the TRTP

On a proper slot all wins should be available on every spin otherwise it is not a fair slot.
 

ChopleyIOM

Hearthstone Addict
webby
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Location
IOM
Stupid gimpy autoplay on this slot.

It has no stop triggers at all, so I tend to make sure I'm in the room when it's running as I don't want to miss any big wins.

Just had to pop out of the room for a couple of minutes to attend to the cat and forgot to stop the autoplay, when I got back my balance had jumped £54 (I'm on 25p spins), checked my game history and I'd literally just missed a 216x win, which is a pretty meaty win for this slot.

Seriously, how does a slot get through its entire design and testing process without anyone saying, 'Hang on chaps, maybe we should make the autoplay at least a tiny bit configurable?....'
 
Top