Bitch and Moan SuperLenny - Confiscation of Winnings - Lost My Faith in Online Gambling

b0kch01

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Location
Australia
Hi Guys

I am not sure if I have a case to lodge a PAB but I just thought I would share with you all my story.

23/06/2014 - The Night SuperLenny (Thrills) Destroyed My Soul

It is a cold winters night in Australia, Tuesday night watching the World Cup.
I receive an email from Superlenny.com casino offering a 100% Samba match bonus - Brazil is currently playing and Neymar has scored two goals.
Let's try my luck I think - 100% is good what have I got to lose?

Little do I know, I would lose more than just money - but my faith in online gambling.

So I deposit a whopping $27.15 (USD) giving me a balance of $54.30 in total to attack.
Start the night on mobile, betting $2.40 per spin on Mad Hatters - I get home and decide to jump on the PC.

On P.C. I decide to switch to Immortal Romance, dropping my bet to $1.20 with my balance sitting at a cool $80.40.
I haven't even fallen below even yet let along gone anywhere near using my bonus balance!

Stats:
- Min Balance = $50.70
- Current Balance = $80.40
- Wagering Req Left = $1,177.50

Ok the fun starts here.....5 spins in I hit Wild Desire with my bet at $1.20.
4 wild reels, huge payout of $1134 - a whopping 945 times my bet.
Woohoo! A withdrawal is on its way!

With my balance sitting at $1210 USD, I resume playing as I know I have quite a bit of the wagering requirement still to go.

From here I play Twin Spin, betting $5 per spin.
Balance is sitting at a cool $1144 still so I up the bet to $7.50 then to $10.00.
Somewhere within here I have unknowingly broken the rules of the bonus.

Despite breaking these seemingly absurd terms considering the balance of my account due to that huge Immortal Romance win, I continue to play 450+ spins with a minimum bet of $10 after the WR has been met.

I finally withdraw 451 spins later with a balance of $727 USD, not having a clue I had broken any terms of the bonus but knowing I had obliterated many times over any WR that could exist.

Hours pass and I am awaiting my withdrawal - I am ignored by support who insist 'payments are not in until tomorrow'.

15 hours later, after parading around a day like a winner I get the news my winnings have been confiscated and that I am a violator of the terms of the bonus.
What is even more hurtful is the manner in which I am spoken to by support.
As if I am a criminal, a deliberate violator, a bonus abuser?
No sympathy whatsoever - no attempt at even a compensatory offer -''I am lucky to get my deposit back" according to them.

So here are the terms and conditions of the bonus:

Terms and Conditions for All Casino Bonuses
The maximum bet that is allowed to be placed when playing with a bonus is €5/$6/£4 per spin and €0.1/$0.1/£0.1 per Bet line (or equivalent in any other currency) until the play through requirements of the bonus have been met. This includes double up wagers after the game round has been completed. For example, wagering winnings from X game round on red/black.

Ok so I broke the rules, I bet in excess of $6 with bonus funds in my account.

What hurts the most is my position I was in at the time these 'excessive bets' were spun.

- I switched from $5 bet to $7.50 bet with a funds balance of $1144 USD and remaining WR of only $441
- I switched from $7.50 bet to $10 bet with a funds balance of $1658 USD and remaining WR of only $148

Hence I have been hit with the ultimate punishment.
Confiscation of everything.

My balance never even fell below my initial deposit, meaning I never even came close to using the bonus funds issued.

I am utterly scarred from this experience, especially the ruthless attitude shown by the agent who spoke to me.

Online gaming will never be the same for me again.
Let this be a warning to you all.

I guess you are all going to lay into me and state that I have no case for a PAB.
You are probably right.

To feel like a lucky gambler who just had a great hit, to feel like a pennyless crook.

Thanks Superlenny/Thrills, you have my soul.

Regards,
b0kch01
 

homerbert

Accredited Casino Representative
Joined
Jun 21, 2012
Location
NoWhere
terms is terms, and this is only your own fault.
Here you can also wait that superlenny did you a favor, and pay. Or return your balance to the moment when you start betting to high.
But if only they decide, they in perfect position, and they did not do anything bad.
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
Hi Guys

I am not sure if I have a case to lodge a PAB but I just thought I would share with you all my story.

23/06/2014 - The Night SuperLenny (Thrills) Destroyed My Soul

It is a cold winters night in Australia, Tuesday night watching the World Cup.
I receive an email from Superlenny.com casino offering a 100% Samba match bonus - Brazil is currently playing and Neymar has scored two goals.
Let's try my luck I think - 100% is good what have I got to lose?

Little do I know, I would lose more than just money - but my faith in online gambling.

So I deposit a whopping $27.15 (USD) giving me a balance of $54.30 in total to attack.
Start the night on mobile, betting $2.40 per spin on Mad Hatters - I get home and decide to jump on the PC.

On P.C. I decide to switch to Immortal Romance, dropping my bet to $1.20 with my balance sitting at a cool $80.40.
I haven't even fallen below even yet let along gone anywhere near using my bonus balance!

Stats:
- Min Balance = $50.70
- Current Balance = $80.40
- Wagering Req Left = $1,177.50

Ok the fun starts here.....5 spins in I hit Wild Desire with my bet at $1.20.
4 wild reels, huge payout of $1134 - a whopping 945 times my bet.
Woohoo! A withdrawal is on its way!

With my balance sitting at $1210 USD, I resume playing as I know I have quite a bit of the wagering requirement still to go.

From here I play Twin Spin, betting $5 per spin.
Balance is sitting at a cool $1144 still so I up the bet to $7.50 then to $10.00.
Somewhere within here I have unknowingly broken the rules of the bonus.

Despite breaking these seemingly absurd terms considering the balance of my account due to that huge Immortal Romance win, I continue to play 450+ spins with a minimum bet of $10 after the WR has been met.

I finally withdraw 451 spins later with a balance of $727 USD, not having a clue I had broken any terms of the bonus but knowing I had obliterated many times over any WR that could exist.

Hours pass and I am awaiting my withdrawal - I am ignored by support who insist 'payments are not in until tomorrow'.

15 hours later, after parading around a day like a winner I get the news my winnings have been confiscated and that I am a violator of the terms of the bonus.
What is even more hurtful is the manner in which I am spoken to by support.
As if I am a criminal, a deliberate violator, a bonus abuser?
No sympathy whatsoever - no attempt at even a compensatory offer -''I am lucky to get my deposit back" according to them.

So here are the terms and conditions of the bonus:

Terms and Conditions for All Casino Bonuses
The maximum bet that is allowed to be placed when playing with a bonus is €5/$6/£4 per spin and €0.1/$0.1/£0.1 per Bet line (or equivalent in any other currency) until the play through requirements of the bonus have been met. This includes double up wagers after the game round has been completed. For example, wagering winnings from X game round on red/black.

Ok so I broke the rules, I bet in excess of $6 with bonus funds in my account.

What hurts the most is my position I was in at the time these 'excessive bets' were spun.

- I switched from $5 bet to $7.50 bet with a funds balance of $1144 USD and remaining WR of only $441
- I switched from $7.50 bet to $10 bet with a funds balance of $1658 USD and remaining WR of only $148

Hence I have been hit with the ultimate punishment.
Confiscation of everything.

My balance never even fell below my initial deposit, meaning I never even came close to using the bonus funds issued.

I am utterly scarred from this experience, especially the ruthless attitude shown by the agent who spoke to me.

Online gaming will never be the same for me again.
Let this be a warning to you all.

I guess you are all going to lay into me and state that I have no case for a PAB.
You are probably right.

To feel like a lucky gambler who just had a great hit, to feel like a pennyless crook.

Thanks Superlenny/Thrills, you have my soul.

Regards,
b0kch01


Sorry mate, you've learned the hard way to ALWAYS THOROUGHLY read the T&C's. Seldom will a bonus being present on the account allow anything over 6.25 a spin or 5% whichever is least. You can't justifiably PAB as they have acted within their terms you agreed to. ALL online casinos have similar terms where bonuses are concerned, whether you dip into the bonus or not. This isn't a 'warning' to us as we mostly do read the terms. It's pointless being 'angry' with online gaming as the fault unfortunately lies with you. It won't make you feel any better, but it's a very common mistake, and one which often results in players joining CM to complain about.
I feel your disappointment, but it's down to naivety in the end.
 

b0kch01

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Location
Australia
terms is terms, and this is only your own fault.
Here you can also wait that superlenny did you a favor, and pay. Or return your balance to the moment when you start betting to high.
But if only they decide, they in perfect position, and they did not do anything bad.

Hi Homerbert

Thanks for your input.
I was hoping the casino would be more open towards a compromise also, not just completely wipe all my winnings and tell me I am in the wrong.
I openly acknowledged that I broke their terms of the bonus.
Have spoken to their support n a very very civilised manner - yet somehow I feel like they have treated me as a player who intentionally tried to abuse the bonus and withdraw the funds which is clearly not the case.

The ruthlessness was what really shocked me.

My balance when I started betting too high was in excess of $1000.
I simply increased my bet size in proportion with my balance.

I would have been best off leaving my bet at $1.20 until I beat the WR then increased my bet if I wanted to win more.
This sounds like the wrong thing to do and bonus abusing.

Instead I did the 'right' thing and was in turn punished hence which is why I am scarred.
 

Freeman

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 8, 2012
Location
Sweden
Hi Guys

I am not sure if I have a case to lodge a PAB but I just thought I would share with you all my story.

23/06/2014 - The Night SuperLenny (Thrills) Destroyed My Soul

It is a cold winters night in Australia, Tuesday night watching the World Cup.
I receive an email from Superlenny.com casino offering a 100% Samba match bonus - Brazil is currently playing and Neymar has scored two goals.
Let's try my luck I think - 100% is good what have I got to lose?

Little do I know, I would lose more than just money - but my faith in online gambling.

So I deposit a whopping $27.15 (USD) giving me a balance of $54.30 in total to attack.
Start the night on mobile, betting $2.40 per spin on Mad Hatters - I get home and decide to jump on the PC.

On P.C. I decide to switch to Immortal Romance, dropping my bet to $1.20 with my balance sitting at a cool $80.40.
I haven't even fallen below even yet let along gone anywhere near using my bonus balance!

Stats:
- Min Balance = $50.70
- Current Balance = $80.40
- Wagering Req Left = $1,177.50

Ok the fun starts here.....5 spins in I hit Wild Desire with my bet at $1.20.
4 wild reels, huge payout of $1134 - a whopping 945 times my bet.
Woohoo! A withdrawal is on its way!

With my balance sitting at $1210 USD, I resume playing as I know I have quite a bit of the wagering requirement still to go.

From here I play Twin Spin, betting $5 per spin.
Balance is sitting at a cool $1144 still so I up the bet to $7.50 then to $10.00.
Somewhere within here I have unknowingly broken the rules of the bonus.

Despite breaking these seemingly absurd terms considering the balance of my account due to that huge Immortal Romance win, I continue to play 450+ spins with a minimum bet of $10 after the WR has been met.

I finally withdraw 451 spins later with a balance of $727 USD, not having a clue I had broken any terms of the bonus but knowing I had obliterated many times over any WR that could exist.

Hours pass and I am awaiting my withdrawal - I am ignored by support who insist 'payments are not in until tomorrow'.

15 hours later, after parading around a day like a winner I get the news my winnings have been confiscated and that I am a violator of the terms of the bonus.
What is even more hurtful is the manner in which I am spoken to by support.
As if I am a criminal, a deliberate violator, a bonus abuser?
No sympathy whatsoever - no attempt at even a compensatory offer -''I am lucky to get my deposit back" according to them.

So here are the terms and conditions of the bonus:

Terms and Conditions for All Casino Bonuses
The maximum bet that is allowed to be placed when playing with a bonus is €5/$6/£4 per spin and €0.1/$0.1/£0.1 per Bet line (or equivalent in any other currency) until the play through requirements of the bonus have been met. This includes double up wagers after the game round has been completed. For example, wagering winnings from X game round on red/black.

Ok so I broke the rules, I bet in excess of $6 with bonus funds in my account.

What hurts the most is my position I was in at the time these 'excessive bets' were spun.

- I switched from $5 bet to $7.50 bet with a funds balance of $1144 USD and remaining WR of only $441
- I switched from $7.50 bet to $10 bet with a funds balance of $1658 USD and remaining WR of only $148

Hence I have been hit with the ultimate punishment.
Confiscation of everything.

My balance never even fell below my initial deposit, meaning I never even came close to using the bonus funds issued.

I am utterly scarred from this experience, especially the ruthless attitude shown by the agent who spoke to me.

Online gaming will never be the same for me again.
Let this be a warning to you all.

I guess you are all going to lay into me and state that I have no case for a PAB.
You are probably right.

To feel like a lucky gambler who just had a great hit, to feel like a pennyless crook.

Thanks Superlenny/Thrills, you have my soul.

Regards,
b0kch01

I feel your pain, I do, but there's really nothing anyone can do about it. When you took the bonus you accepted the terms and thereby signed a legally binding contract. That's where importance of reading the small print kicks in. I can promise you one thing though: you will never make that mistake again. Please don't feel to bad about it. Many, many others before you have made the same mistake and you will not be the last.
 

gagamel

Professional smurf hunter
Joined
Apr 4, 2012
Location
Switzerland
Hi Homerbert

Thanks for your input.
I was hoping the casino would be more open towards a compromise also, not just completely wipe all my winnings and tell me I am in the wrong.
I openly acknowledged that I broke their terms of the bonus.
Have spoken to their support n a very very civilised manner - yet somehow I feel like they have treated me as a player who intentionally tried to abuse the bonus and withdraw the funds which is clearly not the case.

The ruthlessness was what really shocked me.

My balance when I started betting too high was in excess of $1000.
I simply increased my bet size in proportion with my balance.

I would have been best off leaving my bet at $1.20 until I beat the WR then increased my bet if I wanted to win more.
This sounds like the wrong thing to do and bonus abusing.

Instead I did the 'right' thing and was in turn punished hence which is why I am scarred.

I believe that you have to learn a lot about online gaming.

There are T&C`s you have to follow. You didn`t and the casino is now not very friendly to you. That`s not your fault, but there are loads of a**holes around who have the same excuses like you to make some money.

Maybe you were nr. 14 this day who made a "little" mistake and the CS lost his nerves.

But I believe you are a nice guy and you will learn a lot from this issue.

Always read, understand and follow the T&C`s :)
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
That's the trouble with these rules. Your problem is that you played just as a recreational player would, betting a little higher after a blinding big hit and straying above the limits.

What you SHOULD have done is to have some "advantage play" skills, and played like a cross between a recreational and advantage player. Upon hitting the big win, you should have calculated exactly the highest permissible bet on a slot by slot basis, and then selected the best way to play off the remaining WR.

The safest of all would have been to keep the bets between $1.20 and $2.40 throughout the rest of the playthrough, aiming to complete it to the dot and withdraw as much as possible of the winnings. Unfortunately, they may well have confiscated the winnings even then because you "played to make WR" rather than "played recreationally".

This is something that can happen at ANY online casino, not just this one, so if this is what has put you off, it's the fault of the industry for not having proper rules and procedures in place to consider individual cases on their merit. A more reputable casino may well have considered the case, and concluded that by betting high only after a spectacular hit, you are the kind of "recreational player" they want long term, and thus could be offered a compromise.

The rule is there to cater for players who start betting big right away, far too large a bet for their balance for it to be "recreational play".
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
That's the trouble with these rules. Your problem is that you played just as a recreational player would, betting a little higher after a blinding big hit and straying above the limits.

What you SHOULD have done is to have some "advantage play" skills, and played like a cross between a recreational and advantage player. Upon hitting the big win, you should have calculated exactly the highest permissible bet on a slot by slot basis, and then selected the best way to play off the remaining WR.

The safest of all would have been to keep the bets between $1.20 and $2.40 throughout the rest of the playthrough, aiming to complete it to the dot and withdraw as much as possible of the winnings. Unfortunately, they may well have confiscated the winnings even then because you "played to make WR" rather than "played recreationally".
This is something that can happen at ANY online casino, not just this one, so if this is what has put you off, it's the fault of the industry for not having proper rules and procedures in place to consider individual cases on their merit. A more reputable casino may well have considered the case, and concluded that by betting high only after a spectacular hit, you are the kind of "recreational player" they want long term, and thus could be offered a compromise.

The rule is there to cater for players who start betting big right away, far too large a bet for their balance for it to be "recreational play".

Sorry but while I agree with some points, that one bolded is tosh. Unless totally rogue, which SuperLenny aren't, no casino should remove winnings solely on the basis of making the WR while keeping within the bonus terms. You're scaring the OP unnecessarily. Look how many times Chopley did this in his videos - did he ever have winnings confiscated? :rolleyes:
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
Sorry but while I agree with some points, that one bolded is tosh. Unless totally rogue, which SuperLenny aren't, no casino should remove winnings solely on the basis of making the WR while keeping within the bonus terms. You're scaring the OP unnecessarily. Look how many times Chopley did this in his videos - did he ever have winnings confiscated? :rolleyes:

Agree.

The bit that makes me laugh is that he insists that "every case should be considered on it's merits"......in other words, the casino should make a "value judgement" based on what they "feel" was the player's "intentions".....HOWEVER in all the OTHER threads about bonus terms he bangs on about how casinos DO NOT have the right to make such judgements of intent AT ALL via the "spirit of the bonus or "non-recreational" clauses against which he vehemently protesteth.

It's hypocrisy of the highest order. He wants clear and concise terms with NO room for misunderstanding (like superlenny), but then wants exceptions to be made based on what the player's intent may have been. LOL. You can't have it both ways.

It's a crystal clear breach of contract (some legalese there just for VWM) and the appropriate penalty was applied. Once you make an exception for one, you have to do it for everyone else that screams "but I didn't know" and tells heart wrenching stories of cold winter's nights and loss of faith.....and then there may as well be no rules at all.

The OP should accept their mistake like an adult and accept the consequences. Casinos aren't charities, and there's no such thing as a free lunch. If one doesn't know these things, one shouldn't be gambling.
 

kavaman

Senior Member
PABnononaccred3
PABnononaccred3
MM
Joined
Dec 2, 2001
Location
finland
Some people here constantly state that the norm is 5% or 5€ bet or something. Thats just for a couple of casinos, i think the norm is max bet of about 20-30% of bonus amount, which just may be 20€ bet or more with a bigger deposit. Its only a few netent casinos that have these crazy bonus t&c.

About the op:s breaking of terms, agreed he should have read the rules, but a good exception here would be to restore the balance to the amount it was before these big bets. He clearly did not break the rules by intention. It would be stupid to raise bets this high, intentionally when your just trying to grind out the wagering requirements.
 

b0kch01

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Location
Australia
Would like to thank you all for your responses – you all have very valid points which have all crossed my mind in the last few hours.

The one area where it doesn’t seem to be clear is that I had no intention of increasing my bet to beat any bonus requirement.
It did not cross my mind at all really, as my balance was $1000 and the bonus given was only $25.

I increased my bet to win more (I believe this is called gambling).
As noted I had another 400+ spins at a minimum bet value of $10 after I had beat the wagering requirement.
I was not even aware that I had beat the WR at the time – I did not even pay attention to it as I knew I would obliterate it with that kind of balance and only a $25 bonus.

My bet was increased from $5 to $7.50 (where the max bet was broken) with $460 left to wager.
Current funds balance was well in excess of $1000 USD.

So please tell me how on earth did I have any intent for those who are painting the wrong picture of my intentions?

Some of the more recent post comments are much more supportive and along the lines of what I was thinking.
I would really like to think these online casinos value their customers and are worth more than a few hundred dollars as in the long run I know I am destined to give back many times that.

I am not even a new customer at the casino group.
I have had a Thrills account for many months and Superlenny for a couple of months.
Would say I have deposited well over 30 times…dollar value over $1000 with only one previous withdrawal.

Basically from here I guess it is to the casino rep for Superlenny/Thrills (I believe it is Erik) for a response.
What is the best way to get their attention?

Thank you all for your comments once again.

Regards,
B0kch01
 

Freeman

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 8, 2012
Location
Sweden
Would like to thank you all for your responses – you all have very valid points which have all crossed my mind in the last few hours.

The one area where it doesn’t seem to be clear is that I had no intention of increasing my bet to beat any bonus requirement.
It did not cross my mind at all really, as my balance was $1000 and the bonus given was only $25.

I increased my bet to win more (I believe this is called gambling).
As noted I had another 400+ spins at a minimum bet value of $10 after I had beat the wagering requirement.
I was not even aware that I had beat the WR at the time – I did not even pay attention to it as I knew I would obliterate it with that kind of balance and only a $25 bonus.

My bet was increased from $5 to $7.50 (where the max bet was broken) with $460 left to wager.
Current funds balance was well in excess of $1000 USD.

So please tell me how on earth did I have any intent for those who are painting the wrong picture of my intentions?

Some of the more recent post comments are much more supportive and along the lines of what I was thinking.
I would really like to think these online casinos value their customers and are worth more than a few hundred dollars as in the long run I know I am destined to give back many times that.

I am not even a new customer at the casino group.
I have had a Thrills account for many months and Superlenny for a couple of months.
Would say I have deposited well over 30 times…dollar value over $1000 with only one previous withdrawal.

Basically from here I guess it is to the casino rep for Superlenny/Thrills (I believe it is Erik) for a response.
What is the best way to get their attention?

Thank you all for your comments once again.

Regards,
B0kch01

I understand perfectly what you are saying, but still, it doesn't work that way. It dosn't matter what intentions you had, you still broke the terms. I can assure you, the violation of the terms is the first thing they check. Think of it this way: If by any chance they would brake any term in your favor, it's not very likely you would compensate them for it, would you? My suggestion is to just let it go, lesson learned.
 

Tirilej

Still a Lady
CAG
MM
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Sweden
So please tell me how on earth did I have any intent for those who are painting the wrong picture of my intentions?

Only you know you're intentions. Everyone else can only guess.

The point is still that you did breake the rules and you won't get paid.
No compromise can be made since that will open up for others to do the same.

You're not the first one this have happened to and you will not be the last.
You will never do the same mistake again, and neither will those who have read this thread.
Please don't let this lesson make you bitter. It was just some money ;)
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Location
-
Some people here constantly state that the norm is 5% or 5€ bet or something. Thats just for a couple of casinos, i think the norm is max bet of about 20-30% of bonus amount, which just may be 20€ bet or more with a bigger deposit. Its only a few netent casinos that have these crazy bonus t&c.

Max €5-10 per spin while playing on a bonus is quite normal.

A few examples may be Redbet €5, 32Red €6.25 (welcome bonus), Guts €7.50 and CasinoLuck €8.50.

These are also some of the highest rated casinos on this forum.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Agree.

The bit that makes me laugh is that he insists that "every case should be considered on it's merits"......in other words, the casino should make a "value judgement" based on what they "feel" was the player's "intentions".....HOWEVER in all the OTHER threads about bonus terms he bangs on about how casinos DO NOT have the right to make such judgements of intent AT ALL via the "spirit of the bonus or "non-recreational" clauses against which he vehemently protesteth.

It's hypocrisy of the highest order. He wants clear and concise terms with NO room for misunderstanding (like superlenny), but then wants exceptions to be made based on what the player's intent may have been. LOL. You can't have it both ways.

It's a crystal clear breach of contract (some legalese there just for VWM) and the appropriate penalty was applied. Once you make an exception for one, you have to do it for everyone else that screams "but I didn't know" and tells heart wrenching stories of cold winter's nights and loss of faith.....and then there may as well be no rules at all.

The OP should accept their mistake like an adult and accept the consequences. Casinos aren't charities, and there's no such thing as a free lunch. If one doesn't know these things, one shouldn't be gambling.


Casinos often do this when making a "value judgement" works in their favour, so they should also be prepared to do the same in cases such as this.

The term is only there because they are too lazy to alter the software to reject invalid bets at source.

It's like the "fair use policies" we see with broadband providers. They are there to share out the bandwidth, not to exercise rigidly to cut off everyone who goes one byte over.

Rather than rely on terms like this that catch out ordinary players who just raise their bets after a big win, they should target the measures towards the players that open with big bets from a relatively low balance and then LOWER their bets in response to a big hit so as to grind out the WR.

Once a bet is accepted, it should stand, win or lose. This is how it works in the "real world", the world the online gambling industry seems to want to be a part of.

Casinos with such draconian rules often also have similarly draconian policies with regard to the "F U Clause", which is where we often see the "value judgment" being used against a player who didn't break any of the terms, yet has been judged by the casino as having the "intent" to abuse the casino bonus.

The OP is right to be scared when using the welcome bonus at any casino. Keeping within the rules is not necessarily enough, some casinos look for the intent, and judge on the very limited data derived from the players first deposit and gaming session.

I believe they are semi rogue because they have set the limit at a very low amount likely to catch out the recreational player who raises bets after a big win, not just the advantage player who seeks to make very large bets from the start.

Had the more usual 25% limit been set, the OP would have still been well in the clear after raising the bet after that big hit.

I also note that they have made their term even more complicated, as they also have a limit of 0.10 per line. This means the overall limit is not quite as clear as it might be because on some slots the 0.10 line limit is in control. For example, on the original Thunderstruck, the max bet allowed under these rules is 0.90, and had the OP been betting 1.20 on this instead of Immortal Romance, he would have broken the rules immediately. It is also impossible to meet this rule on a few slots as the MINIMUM line bet is set to 0.25, these are the "classic" 3 reel slots. Some of the older Microgaming 5 reel slots also have a minimum line bet of 0.25, 5 Reel Drive and What A Hoot are examples.

The whole idea of having to stick to a set of terms and conditions is alien to the UK recreational player used to just walking into an arcade or casino and "just playing". The machines take care of the allowed bet limits, and the worst that can happen is being asked to leave with your winnings to date if you are deemed "too lucky" by the operator. This is why so many new players don't bother about the terms and conditions, they believe it doesn't really matter, and won't be anything that will affect their usual recreational style of play. The industry must be losing a significant number of recreational players through such bad first experiences, yet the advantage players are not going to be deterred by such a setback, they will just learn from it and adapt their strategy. This will continue to remain the case under the current system.

Far better is a system that has advantage players complaining that the games are "broken" because all bets above 0.10 per line are rejected, with recreational players either not noticing because they bet lower anyway, or accepting that the machine only accepts bets this high much like they do at arcades and land casinos.

It's only going to get worse because these current bet limit rules have been around long enough for advantage players to have adapted tactics such that they no longer get caught out by them. This will result in even weirder rules than we have now, ones that will catch out even more recreational players.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Max €5-10 per spin while playing on a bonus is quite normal.

A few examples may be Redbet €5, 32Red €6.25 (welcome bonus), Guts €7.50 and CasinoLuck €8.50.

These are also some of the highest rated casinos on this forum.

Normal now, but a couple of years ago such rules would have been regarded as "crazy" or even "rogue", as then everything would be fine so long as the player stuck to slots with a bonus in play. The only time players had to worry about bonus terms was when playing non slot games. Now slot players have to contend with even more complicated rules than was ever seen for table games, and it's just getting worse. They can't move to table games instead because these are almost always excluded from play with a bonus.
 

skiny

Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas
Joined
Oct 30, 2008
Location
Canada
It keeps being said over and over, for bonus rules to be fair they have to specifically state exactly how much the player is allowed to wager. These rules do exactly that.

They're easy to understand. You can't blame the casino if people just don't bother to read them.
 

Freeman

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 8, 2012
Location
Sweden
Casinos often do this when making a "value judgement" works in their favour, so they should also be prepared to do the same in cases such as this.

The term is only there because they are too lazy to alter the software to reject invalid bets at source.

It's like the "fair use policies" we see with broadband providers. They are there to share out the bandwidth, not to exercise rigidly to cut off everyone who goes one byte over.

Rather than rely on terms like this that catch out ordinary players who just raise their bets after a big win, they should target the measures towards the players that open with big bets from a relatively low balance and then LOWER their bets in response to a big hit so as to grind out the WR.

Once a bet is accepted, it should stand, win or lose. This is how it works in the "real world", the world the online gambling industry seems to want to be a part of.

Casinos with such draconian rules often also have similarly draconian policies with regard to the "F U Clause", which is where we often see the "value judgment" being used against a player who didn't break any of the terms, yet has been judged by the casino as having the "intent" to abuse the casino bonus.

The OP is right to be scared when using the welcome bonus at any casino. Keeping within the rules is not necessarily enough, some casinos look for the intent, and judge on the very limited data derived from the players first deposit and gaming session.

I believe they are semi rogue because they have set the limit at a very low amount likely to catch out the recreational player who raises bets after a big win, not just the advantage player who seeks to make very large bets from the start.

Had the more usual 25% limit been set, the OP would have still been well in the clear after raising the bet after that big hit.

I also note that they have made their term even more complicated, as they also have a limit of 0.10 per line. This means the overall limit is not quite as clear as it might be because on some slots the 0.10 line limit is in control. For example, on the original Thunderstruck, the max bet allowed under these rules is 0.90, and had the OP been betting 1.20 on this instead of Immortal Romance, he would have broken the rules immediately. It is also impossible to meet this rule on a few slots as the MINIMUM line bet is set to 0.25, these are the "classic" 3 reel slots. Some of the older Microgaming 5 reel slots also have a minimum line bet of 0.25, 5 Reel Drive and What A Hoot are examples.

The whole idea of having to stick to a set of terms and conditions is alien to the UK recreational player used to just walking into an arcade or casino and "just playing". The machines take care of the allowed bet limits, and the worst that can happen is being asked to leave with your winnings to date if you are deemed "too lucky" by the operator. This is why so many new players don't bother about the terms and conditions, they believe it doesn't really matter, and won't be anything that will affect their usual recreational style of play. The industry must be losing a significant number of recreational players through such bad first experiences, yet the advantage players are not going to be deterred by such a setback, they will just learn from it and adapt their strategy. This will continue to remain the case under the current system.

Far better is a system that has advantage players complaining that the games are "broken" because all bets above 0.10 per line are rejected, with recreational players either not noticing because they bet lower anyway, or accepting that the machine only accepts bets this high much like they do at arcades and land casinos.

It's only going to get worse because these current bet limit rules have been around long enough for advantage players to have adapted tactics such that they no longer get caught out by them. This will result in even weirder rules than we have now, ones that will catch out even more recreational players.

I actually agree 100% and I feel really sorry for the op, but the fact is its not gonna make him any good getting his hopes up on this case. They wont change the term retroactively...
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
It keeps being said over and over, for bonus rules to be fair they have to specifically state exactly how much the player is allowed to wager. These rules do exactly that.

They're easy to understand. You can't blame the casino if people just don't bother to read them.

You can't blame the player for thinking that playing online is a simple matter of depositing and pressing spin.

Although clear, they are pretty draconian, which is what makes them such a problem for the average newbie. Dropping the additional line bet limit would make them clearer still, as the player would only have to worry about their total stake remaining below the limit.

They could have a crystal clear limit of 1% of balance, and it would catch out almost everybody at some point.

A simple solution to this problem would be to only allow a coin size of 0.01 to be selected with a bonus. This should enforce both the overall and the line limit without the player having to know what they are. I noticed this approach at 3Dice when I started playing there. Coin size wasn't selectable, and was set at 0.01. The result was that all their games had a pretty low max possible bet. They didn't really have much in the way of bonus rules governing HOW you could play, and what they did have simply explained why certain games were greyed out occasionally with a bonus in play.
 

coxwel

Senior Member
PABnononaccred
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Location
germany
As most things already been posted i will (try ^^)to make this short.

I feel the frustration of the OP and feel sorry for him loosing his winnings due to this breach of terms which was not his intention, i believe.

Anyway, I think it goes too far stating"I lost my faith in online gambling etc" this is a statement led by your emotions, but once you calm down i believe op should realize that nothing unfair happened to him. Several Spins over the allowed maxbet whilst theres still a wr to meet will led to this outcome in any online casino.

From my experience superlenny is very customer friendly and fair concerning their terms and possible breaches which were not intended. As I played for the first time on superlenny i took the welcome bonus, hit a quite big win and then made a 25€ Spin on Victorious by mistake (hitting max bet, these damn small netent slots ;) ) What I did was the following: Of course i noticed it immediatly, biting my ass for loosing 25€ in one spin, opened livechat, told them i made a mistake by betting 25€ whilst bonus is active, they immediatly assured! me that this would be no problem at all, in the end my winnings were paid no trouble about the max bet. I admit in my case it was pretty obvious that it was a genuine mistake and I immediately reported it myself. Iam sure any rogue would have used this 1 mistake against me.

The op just didnt realize his mistake so he went on, making multiple mistakes which implies that he didnt! read the t&c´s before taking and wagering on a bonus, so in the end the only one to blame should be himself. Superlenny is not blame here, not even 1%. terms are crystal clear. Breaching them 1 or two times by mistake, ok that can happen, report it and iam sure they will look at it and find a solution. But in this case i see no reason or possibility for not voiding the balance, sorry. :(

From now on if taking a bonus read the terms, underdstand them, you should be fine.


cheers
coxwel
 
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Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
You can't blame the player for thinking that playing online is a simple matter of depositing and pressing spin.

Although clear, they are pretty draconian, which is what makes them such a problem for the average newbie. Dropping the additional line bet limit would make them clearer still, as the player would only have to worry about their total stake remaining below the limit.

They could have a crystal clear limit of 1% of balance, and it would catch out almost everybody at some point.

A simple solution to this problem would be to only allow a coin size of 0.01 to be selected with a bonus. This should enforce both the overall and the line limit without the player having to know what they are. I noticed this approach at 3Dice when I started playing there. Coin size wasn't selectable, and was set at 0.01. The result was that all their games had a pretty low max possible bet. They didn't really have much in the way of bonus rules governing HOW you could play, and what they did have simply explained why certain games were greyed out occasionally with a bonus in play.

The fact is.......at this particular casino it does NOT work that way.

The time to work that out is BEFORE you play.

What you're attempting to do is divert attention away from the single most important issue in this thread, and the underlying reason why the OP has lost his winnings. HE DID NOT READ THE TERMS. Simple.

See, there are people in the world (such as yourself apparently) that believe that everyone else is responsible for one's own actions, and that we should all be spoonfed and "blocked" from making any kind of mistake by just not allowing it to happen. I'm not just talking about online gambling either.

By extension, you are saying that in a 60kmh speed zone, there should be speed humps spaced about 5 metres apart the whole length of the road to make it impossible for anyone to travel 60pmh and break the law (terms).....and yet....WE are expected, as adults, to take responsibility for our own driving and keep within the limits. Let's visit one of your favourite legal scenarios.......try going to court defending a speeding fine by saying "Your Honour, if they didn't want me to travel that fast, they should have placed speed traps to stop me. Furthermore, it is also the car maker's responsibility for allowing me to travel at whatever speed I choose...they should have sensors that don't allow you to break the speed limit wherever you go. Oh, and I didn't see the sign too.....so it's the council's fault for not placing enough speed signs on that road". When the raucous laughter of the entire courtroom has subsided, the idiot would probably get the max sentence as a punishment for being so damn stupid.

Here we have a casino that CLEARLY states the EXACT amounts allowed, in plain sight, and you have to bag them out for "not doing enough" to stop people who clearly don't give a toss about their own money from throwing it down the toilet. You bray on about casinos using Fu clauses and unclear terms blah blah, and when we have a casino that actually DOES provide clear concise terms you say they aren't doing enough.



Casinos often do this when making a "value judgement" works in their favour, so they should also be prepared to do the same in cases such as this

The operator is NOT making any judgement at all here. It's a simple case of exceeding the max bet limit. The intent is irrelevant....or so YOU have been saying all these years. Or is that only when it suits?
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
b0Kch, you may contact the Superlenny rep by pm here: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/34596/

While it is true you broke the terms, it is not true that casinos can't make exceptions, or offer you something as a matter of "goodwill" in the way of compensation.

The fact that you have been playing for a while with them may work in your favour if they decide they would like to retain you as a customer. Since you seem to be unaware of the terms, it's quite possible you've broken the rule before on a losing session.

It won't hurt to ask, but don't get your hopes up too much.
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
The fact is.......at this particular casino it does NOT work that way.

The time to work that out is BEFORE you play.

What you're attempting to do is divert attention away from the single most important issue in this thread, and the underlying reason why the OP has lost his winnings. HE DID NOT READ THE TERMS. Simple.

See, there are people in the world (such as yourself apparently) that believe that everyone else is responsible for one's own actions, and that we should all be spoonfed and "blocked" from making any kind of mistake by just not allowing it to happen. I'm not just talking about online gambling either.

By extension, you are saying that in a 60kmh speed zone, there should be speed humps spaced about 5 metres apart the whole length of the road to make it impossible for anyone to travel 60pmh and break the law (terms).....and yet....WE are expected, as adults, to take responsibility for our own driving and keep within the limits. Let's visit one of your favourite legal scenarios.......try going to court defending a speeding fine by saying "Your Honour, if they didn't want me to travel that fast, they should have placed speed traps to stop me. Furthermore, it is also the car maker's responsibility for allowing me to travel at whatever speed I choose...they should have sensors that don't allow you to break the speed limit wherever you go. Oh, and I didn't see the sign too.....so it's the council's fault for not placing enough speed signs on that road". When the raucous laughter of the entire courtroom has subsided, the idiot would probably get the max sentence as a punishment for being so damn stupid.

Here we have a casino that CLEARLY states the EXACT amounts allowed, in plain sight, and you have to bag them out for "not doing enough" to stop people who clearly don't give a toss about their own money from throwing it down the toilet. You bray on about casinos using Fu clauses and unclear terms blah blah, and when we have a casino that actually DOES provide clear concise terms you say they aren't doing enough.





The operator is NOT making any judgement at all here. It's a simple case of exceeding the max bet limit. The intent is irrelevant....or so YOU have been saying all these years. Or is that only when it suits?

Brilliant. I can just see VWM's courtroom wig slide off his head as he sweats after submitting that defence to 12 men good and true. :D
 
Last edited:

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
The fact is.......at this particular casino it does NOT work that way.

The time to work that out is BEFORE you play.

What you're attempting to do is divert attention away from the single most important issue in this thread, and the underlying reason why the OP has lost his winnings. HE DID NOT READ THE TERMS. Simple.

See, there are people in the world (such as yourself apparently) that believe that everyone else is responsible for one's own actions, and that we should all be spoonfed and "blocked" from making any kind of mistake by just not allowing it to happen. I'm not just talking about online gambling either.

By extension, you are saying that in a 60kmh speed zone, there should be speed humps spaced about 5 metres apart the whole length of the road to make it impossible for anyone to travel 60pmh and break the law (terms).....and yet....WE are expected, as adults, to take responsibility for our own driving and keep within the limits. Let's visit one of your favourite legal scenarios.......try going to court defending a speeding fine by saying "Your Honour, if they didn't want me to travel that fast, they should have placed speed traps to stop me. Furthermore, it is also the car maker's responsibility for allowing me to travel at whatever speed I choose...they should have sensors that don't allow you to break the speed limit wherever you go. Oh, and I didn't see the sign too.....so it's the council's fault for not placing enough speed signs on that road". When the raucous laughter of the entire courtroom has subsided, the idiot would probably get the max sentence as a punishment for being so damn stupid.

Here we have a casino that CLEARLY states the EXACT amounts allowed, in plain sight, and you have to bag them out for "not doing enough" to stop people who clearly don't give a toss about their own money from throwing it down the toilet. You bray on about casinos using Fu clauses and unclear terms blah blah, and when we have a casino that actually DOES provide clear concise terms you say they aren't doing enough.





The operator is NOT making any judgement at all here. It's a simple case of exceeding the max bet limit. The intent is irrelevant....or so YOU have been saying all these years. Or is that only when it suits?

They do that here!!!!

My estate is full of the damned things, we are used to being nannied by the state here, so we expect it.

They SHOULD actually include limiters in cars, and they DO make limiters compulsory by law in all lorries so that HGV drivers CANNOT rely on their own responsibility to drive in accordance with the conditions. There are also moves to ban car manufacturers from making cars that can go much faster than 70mph as they cannot legally be used on any public roads.

I wonder what would happen if a bookie's employee accepted a £200 bet, it won, and the customer got paid, then the bookie decided that they had a policy that the maximum allowed bet was £50, and they sued the punter for the return of the ENTIRE win, not simply the excess over that produced from a £50 bet.

I am pretty sure the claim would be thrown out on the grounds that the bet was accepted at the time it was made, and it is at this point that the bet becomes binding, and it's the bookies loss for not having in place something to prevent customers from being able to place an invalid bet.

Casinos have to start accepting that occasionally players DO actually win, and sometimes it's from their first ever deposit. These terms are designed to prevent players from exercising any skill, judgement, or strategy in their play because the casino doesn't like having too many winners, whilst at the same time wanting to fool new players into believing that winning is so easy that only a fool would not play.

Casinos are lucky that many players DON'T read the terms, as if they did, they would be scared off the idea of playing because they would see how the casino was making damn sure they would end up losing over the long term.

Rather than ever more complicated terms, get back to basics, money in slot & press spin, nothing else to have to worry about. They need to design software that allows players to do just this, making the interface as simple as possible whilst having all the checks, balances, and controls implemented by the software. It's not so much nannying as providing the clearest and simplest interface for customers.

In all the years prior to the internet, I have never had a fruit machine announce that I had violated the terms of use and it then voiding my win. If it doesn't want me to win, it throws a losing spin, simple.

For an online casino, it would be an opportunity to NEVER have a player be in the position of having their winnings voided. Such a position would be a unique selling point that the rest of the industry does not have.

Going back to the speed bump analogy, it would also be protection against the advantage player. If some "boy racer" wanted to try out the performance of his car, the road with speed bumps every 5 meters would be the LAST place he would think of. Similarly, advantage players would avoid any casino that had measures in place to reject all the advantage bets they could think of trying. Since casinos claim these terms are intended to protect them from advantage players, and not meant to affect regular players, one would think they would jump at the chance of being able to do away with terms that can have the unintended consequences of hitting their regular players, whilst at the same time not being complete protection against the advantage players.

A quick look at an advantage player forum will show you that getting caught out does little to deter the advantage player, instead they see it as an occasional "occupational hazard" that causes them to adjust strategy, and then try again. Software that nannies out the ability to try it on is what puts them off because it makes the play -EV, and provides little opportunity to garner sympathy because a win has been confiscated under a rogue looking term that could threaten the casino with bad publicity.
 

Freeman

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 8, 2012
Location
Sweden
With the risk of getting ot I must say you both have excellent arguments, and I enjoy reading them. Thank you.
 

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