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Bonus Complaint suomikala87 vs Redbet

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Bonus Issues' started by suomikala87, Dec 19, 2014.

    Dec 19, 2014
  1. suomikala87

    suomikala87 Senior Member PABnoaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    recycle
    Location:
    Northern Countries
    About two months and two weeks ago I got my winnings voided by a casino for the first time. During this time I've gone through the PAB and also some members have reached out to their contacts in order to try and help me out (thanks to everyone for their time and effort). Sadly to no avail so I'm writing this to the forum for the members to give their opinion about this issue.

    First I'd like to tell you a little about me and my gaming habits. I started to play online casinos on 2011 and since the beginning I've played mostly with bonuses. I play only slots - tried some table and card games but those weren't my thing. During this time I've registered and played at tens of casinos (mostly accredited) and I've got a pristine track record (or had until this bonus issue with Redbet). So no, I'm not out there to try and maliciously take advantage of casinos who offer me bonuses. I'd also classify myself as a low roller (most bets are under 2€).

    It was an ordinary playing session for me at first. I checked my email for bonus offers and saw that Redbet (and Whitebet) had sent me a match bonus offer up to 100€ promoting their newly released WMS games. I set out to play only those few newly released games that were being promoted. The start wasn't promising as I busted out at Whitebet. I then took the bonus offer at their sister casino Redbet and ultimately ended up winning a little over 2900€. To my surprise soon after my withdrawal I was contacted by Redbet stating that I had broken their terms and they had voided my winnings. This is the rule they quoted:

    "7.9 Gaming Operator reserves the right to void bonuses and winnings if the Player or any person in the customers household has previously received a similar or equal bonus on one of our other brands. This applies to both sports betting and casino bonuses."

    Looks pretty straightforward right? I took identical bonuses on both casinos so they have the right to void my winnings. The twist is that I had been playing the same way for over two years at these casinos: taking identical bonuses that I was offered via email and playing at both casinos. Until this day I had no issues whatsoever and did not think I ever would.

    I had read the rules and as it states the casino reserves the right to void winnings if a player uses bonuses this way. So as I understand it the casino, at their discretion, can allow a player to play this way. Now after playing this way over two years I was naturally under the impression that I was allowed to take bonuses at both casinos. So I was quite shocked to hear the news that suddenly I wasn't allowed and furthermore they had voided the biggest win I had on their casino because of this.

    I contacted the rep immediately and asked one of the über meisters to weigh in on the matter. At this point I thought surely the matter will be fixed and the casino will honor my withdrawal. As it turns out it was not and I had to take the next step and PAB. I won't got into details about that but ultimately Max concluded that I had been breaking the rules all along (that would be the 7.9. rule mentioned above) and I had no grounds for a complaint after all. Now that got me flustered: how an earth had I been breaking the rule all along if the casino allowed me to play this way. Again the rule states the casino reserves the right - it does not say that a player is not allowed to do so and if it did I wouldn't have been playing this way. So yeah, now the rule was suddenly ironclad and all along I had been taking advantage of the casino.

    Naturally I was not happy about where the PAB ended up so as instructed I contacted Bryan and asked him to take an another look. He was more understanding but the end result was basically the same: I still didn't have my money that I won fair & square. During this exchange Redbet stated that they had clear rules which state ¨you are only allowed to use the bonus on one of our brands¨. So again the term 7.9. term is presented like it's ironclad when it benefits the casino.

    I maintain that I did not do anything wrong. I had read the rules, followed them and it was the casino's decision to allow me to use bonuses at both casinos. They did this until I won big and then swooped in to void my winnings quoting the same rule that allowed me to play this way - now only using it the other way around in order to void my winnings. I'm fine with being bonus banned if they do not like the way I play (they did bonus ban me about a month after this incident took place) but the way Redbet did it to me is far from fair play.

    So what do you forum members think about this: should I get paid or was the casino in the right in voiding my winnings?
     
  2. Dec 19, 2014
  3. Tirilej

    Tirilej Still a Lady CAG

    Occupation:
    Breathing
    Location:
    Sweden
    I say immediately that if you had been a new customer that were using their bonuses this way then no doubt, they would and should deny the winnings.
    They've done it before when a player won at two of their casinos using the same sign up bonus, playing at both at the same time.
    He was denied one of them but they paid out the other one.

    Now you're a loyal player there. I say they should have looked a little different at that.
    My opinion is that you should have gotten paid.
     
    7 people like this.
  4. Dec 19, 2014
  5. miso

    miso Meister Member MM

    Occupation:
    accountant
    Location:
    Ireland
    I'm with you on this one. You should get paid, no question about it.

    See, the first thing I did when signing up at Whitebet and Hey was to contact support and ask whether is it ok to claim bonuses at all casinos in their group.
    I was assured that it is absolutely fine.
     
    4 people like this.
  6. Dec 19, 2014
  7. maphesto

    maphesto Ueber Meister CAG MM webmeister

    Location:
    Sweden
    It seems as the casino voids your withdrawal just because they can.

    Sending you equal emails with offers at both brands together with term 7.9 is the same as creating a win-win situation for the casino. You can claim both, as long as you lose. :what:

    And yes, they have the right to deny you your winnings. Unfortunately it's there in a pretty clear way. Usually, trustworthy casinos protect themselves to NEW customers who use huge welcome bonuses, not to protect themselves against loyal players.

    But, unfortunalely, they have the right to deny your winnings. I think they should pay you, that's the good thing to do. I mean, you had to beat their house edge on the second one as well.
     
    3 people like this.
  8. Dec 19, 2014
  9. Cleveland

    Cleveland Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Professional problem solver
    Location:
    Texas
    No you shouldn't be paid. Reserved the right means just that.

    ****sorry for analogy it just was an easy one****

    You can keep getting caught for speeding and never receive a ticket. You might not even get stopped for it. How many people quickly slammed on the breaks as they passed an officer that was running radar but wasn't stopped for speeding. They assume the officer didn't notice or "catch" them. Not the case. Just because you finally receive a speeding ticket doesn't mean you shouldn't get it just because you have been getting away with it or they have been giving you a break.

    Maybe whoever is working the cashier decided enough is enough, or maybe it was someone new, or maybe the casino just finally decided to enforce the "reserved the right" but either way it's fairly a clear case.

    I know it sucks but by the way you're saying it a casino should never use the phrase "reserves the right" because in any cases where they didn't enforce something, someone now can come back and say "well I've been getting away with it, why doesn't it say the player can't do it, because then I wouldn't have done it."
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Dec 19, 2014
  11. spoton

    spoton Senior Member webmeister

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Right behind you
    They got the terms on their side, but as others have said if this has been going on for so long the decent thing would be to pay you.
     
  12. Dec 19, 2014
  13. Cleveland

    Cleveland Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Professional problem solver
    Location:
    Texas
    Just a quick add in response to the people who think the casino is trying to have "win win" scenarios, think about this: The OP stated they have been playing like this for a while, I'm assuming (might be wrong) that they have been paid in the past. Which means the casino isn't trying to simply "win win" as that would indicate while the OP is losing all is fine, but when they win then they step in and take the winnings.

    The natural question would be then how many WDs has the OP had? If he has had a number of them, then I would say no, the casino isn't doing the whole "win win" thing.
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Dec 19, 2014
  15. Tirilej

    Tirilej Still a Lady CAG

    Occupation:
    Breathing
    Location:
    Sweden
  16. Dec 19, 2014
  17. coxwel

    coxwel Senior Member PABnononaccred MM

    Occupation:
    student
    Location:
    germany
    This is very frustrating to read :(

    I think you should be paid for the reason that in the past you were also allowed to take the offers in both casinos. I remember last year or so this issue came to speech her ein the forums, during that time i got many emails from redbet brands offering me same bonuses on different brands. I took one offer but before! i wrote an email to cs checking if it would be fine to take up the offer in both casinos, as in their terms it stated that rule. It was confirmed that i can do that, seems they decide that case by case. You should have asked cs before, so this situation could have been avoided. But i see, you as regular palyer there thought it would be fine as it was before. (Did you ever withdarw before taking up 1 offer on both brands?)

    What i dont get is why they now enforce this rule so harsh if they mostly wipe it if you ask before. Only reason i can imagine is the big payout, sure they can do it but on a more human side i think it´s pretty uncool.
     
  18. Dec 19, 2014
  19. incrediblestuff

    incrediblestuff SearchingForTheHolyGrail! CAG webmeister

    Occupation:
    Currently: Self employed, Previously: Manager
    Location:
    Mostly the Netherlands
    This is what i thought too, it is a really important factor for me, however, also note that things have changed, and now Redbet is Bonnier Gaming.. so the period of these 2 years, falls under two different leaderships, so to speak..This is another thing to consider, I also had to delete one of my accounts, i had an affiliate account, and a player account, and when Bonnier took over, they said i could only have one ( also because they already know they were going to move to a separate affiliate program) so i am not surprised they have this rule, or are using it more strictly then redbet did before..

    Anyway, can you elaborate, on the withdrawal part? have you had withdrawals before from multiple similar bonuses across the sisters?
    If yes, then theres the issue of timing, and maybe also a bit of class, for instance, they should have bonus banned you, or make you aware that they would enforce this rule, if you continued using the same bonuses across sisters, and that they would bonus ban you if you should do this again.

    Of course it is also possible, that this is the first withdrawal from such a bonus stack under Bonnier management, and that they just now noticed..

    I would say, from my point of view, good business practice would be to either refund depo, and bonus if so wished, to try again, or pay out, inform about bonus ban across sisters, just leaving you the Redbet open for bonuses, or anything alike.
    Sorry for you of course.. but i think they do have the rules on their side, i still hope one of their reps can find a better solution then the voiding..
     
  20. Dec 19, 2014
  21. Wild Reels

    Wild Reels Meister Member webmeister

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Its an unfortunate circumstance, and one that could potentially catch out a lot of people who don't trawl the terms and conditions, and aren't even aware the 2 casinos are linked in any way whatsoever, joe blogs certainly isn't as clued up as as the average member here and is likely to fall foul of this in the future.

    I do remember firing off an email to whitebet asking about bonuses and being able to use them (after being a member of redbet) but never got a reply so i took that as a NO and haven't bothered to ever played there as a result.

    It would be far simpler for players if different brands/casinos were an entirely separate entitiy in terms of bonuses, but i guess at the end of the day it is in the terms, and as such i would haven't even risked it, unless i has a confirmation from CS that what i was doing was 100% ok.

    having read the term

    i think it would help everyone to actually list all the brands in this section also
     
    2 people like this.
  22. Dec 19, 2014
  23. aceking123

    aceking123 Ueber Meister CAG PABnononaccred MM

    Occupation:
    chippy
    Location:
    uk
    hi, it comes down to the casinos discretion & thats where you was unlucky , had it been my account & they had done the same thing i would of said ok no problem,swiftly followed by a account closure , but it can be deemed as multi accounting , i have been told you cannot claim bonuses at both places so it wasn't new to me .

    i had whitebet & redbet accounts ( whitebet is no longer little point ) primary account has always been with redbet , although i've not seen any good play there in months ,so a don't use the account that much any longer , marius is a good rep & rebet are a pretty good casino to be honest

    just take it on the chin & move on sadly
     
  24. Dec 19, 2014
  25. suomikala87

    suomikala87 Senior Member PABnoaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    recycle
    Location:
    Northern Countries
    My last withdrawal from playing two bonuses at these casinos is from 1 year and two months ago. I didn't realise it was that long ago but seems like I haven't been cashing out there for quite a while. As for the whole number of withdrawals from during the time I played there I'm not certain but yes - I've been paid in the past.
     
  26. Dec 19, 2014
  27. Tirilej

    Tirilej Still a Lady CAG

    Occupation:
    Breathing
    Location:
    Sweden
    That really shows that you are a loyal player, and one that just didn't take advanaged of their bonus offers.

    Even if they have changed the owner those who runs the casino are the same. Missing Andy of course.
    I sent a pm to one of their reps. I hope they have some Christmas spirit and then make their rules clearer.
     
    2 people like this.
  28. Dec 19, 2014
  29. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    As you have stated, you did and were all along breaching the T&C's. This was always going to happen. If, at their discretion they have overlooked previous instances, then discretion being discretion it can go either way at any time.

    The way to look at it is: Have you overall, taking all these disallowed bonuses in the past, made a profit? If so they've been pretty accommodating for a long period. Do I think you should have been paid? Possibly but along with a warning that this excessive bonus-taking will stop immediately thereafter.

    I agree the timing of this decision is a little off though.
     
    1 person likes this.
  30. Dec 19, 2014
  31. muziq

    muziq Senior Member MM

    Occupation:
    govt
    Location:
    in your heart
    so sad to hear this

    actually redbet group really dont offer much bonuses there is a monthly reload and some times new game release bonus

    i really think they should allow players to take bonus in both casinos or advise players about it in mail ...

    if it is just added in terms players will think it is for welcome bonus like 32 red you can use welcome bonus in only one of the group but there after can use bonus every where

    i was aware of the rules so before joining whitebet i pm ed rep and asked for an exception he gave me :)
    i deposited 100 won 700 and my withdrawal was denied quoting the same term . but i sent them a mail and it was put back in my account and i was able to withdraw

    there after i pmed rep and he advised its better to take bonus in only casino and so i used them in redbet


    i hope they will take a rethink of the decision and will cutout a deal with you and at least pay you some of your winning
     
  32. Dec 19, 2014
  33. suomikala87

    suomikala87 Senior Member PABnoaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    recycle
    Location:
    Northern Countries
    Indeed at their discretion but it shouldn't mean that they can have it both ways and pull the rug from under me when I win big. I reckon I'd be still happily playing there using the bonuses if I wouldn't have won.

    As for having made profit playing like this I really do not know. I can take a look tomorrow when I have more time but I've also played without a bonus and used their sportsbook so the task of finding out the exact +- for the identical bonus use seems quite time consuming. Anyways I think I'm on the losing side on every casino that I've played a long time which comes with the territory of playing mostly bonuses with 30-50x wagering.
     
  34. Dec 19, 2014
  35. mcgameboy

    mcgameboy Screenieholic & Essayist mm2

    Occupation:
    Casual Stocktaker (Inventory Counter)
    Location:
    Belfast
    This is the bit that I do not like. In your case, they have "declined their option" to void the bonus not only on this particular occasion, but also on all of the other previous occasions. But once you win (for the first time in what did you say....14 months?), they suddenly decided to "exercise their option" to void your winnings? It reeks of double standards, of moving the goalposts, and of shafting the customer. Complete lack of CONSISTENCY in applying THEIR OWN RULES. If they had INTEGRITY, they would apply their own rules EACH and EVERY TIME. But of course, if they had done so, would that have put you off from playing there? Maybe they thought it would drive you to the arms of a competitor, so they "let it go" or "turned a blind eye". And then, if you were in a position to make a withdrawal, "cross that bridge when they get to it".

    So basically, Redbet "at their discretion" can blatantly ignore and/or manipulate their own rulebook and even chuck it in the goddam bin for 14 months if it means they get a loyal player to continue making deposits. But as soon as that person wins, not only MUST the rulebook be consulted, the rules within MUST be adhered to. Puhhhh-lease.

    If you were taking Redbet to the cleaners on a regular basis, then I could perhaps begin to understand their decision. Because they might view you as some kind of "slots pro". But one cashout request in 14 months? That, IMH(umble)O, absolutely stinks (to high heaven and back) of highly dubious and highly selective timing to suit their bottom line. Morally corrupt, unethical, call it what you want. You got MISLED. AND shafted. Period. In your shoes, I'd be absolutely livid.
     
    3 people like this.
  36. Dec 20, 2014
  37. Cleveland

    Cleveland Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Professional problem solver
    Location:
    Texas
    I know it sounds heartless and part of me feels bad for writing it but I can't help it. I feel it needs to be said. For the record I do think the good well gesture would be to pay the player. That being said:

    I think we are getting side tracked and being a bit unfair towards the casino. I say this having no dog in the fight as I can't play there anyway. There is a big difference in "should I get paid" and "what's the right thing to do."

    Firstly we have let casinos go many times in the past for sending out multiple bonus offers to people who couldn't claim them for any number of reasons because of any number of reasons. It happens all the time, right or wrong isn't the point, especially when you know per the rules you either aren't suppose to claim it or there is a chance winnings will be denied.

    Secondly we are big on reading the T/Cs and making sure the casino hasn't made them overly complicated in which to trap the player. This player read them and knew what they were. Something isn't correct about that. If you truly understand what "reveres the right" means, I can't see how anyone would be mad at the casino...Bad timing or not. We see that term in a TON of places, so in essence this thread is saying either remove the term in all places or choose your timing of applying it very carefully. But truth be told it will always be bad timing to the person on the losing end. And there will always be an argument to be made. We also know many casinos look at this as possible bonus abuse. And we would typically warn any player who ask us prior to playing like this.

    I've wanted to claim any number of these nice looking welcome bonuses that still keep showing in my cashier at various casinos for first time depositors but I know I'm not suppose to as I've already done them in the past. I thought about doing it anyway, because they shouldn't have sent them to me, but I stopped because I knew if the bonus code went through it was a potential problem for issues as I've read the rules. Getting away with it one time is nice but it doesn't mean I should now start doing it all the time. Now something that I knew was possibly against the rules or against the rules, has become ok to do because it worked for me. I took a chance on doing it the first time because I wanted to use the bonus codes multiple times, and it worked, so hey now the rule doesn't really mean "reserves the right," it means "reserves the right to apply it to other players but not me." Think about that thought process for a second.

    Should OP be paid no. Would it be the nice and correct thing to do given all the circumstances yes. Should the casino be talked about in the thread as if they are evil, no.
     
  38. Dec 20, 2014
  39. Tirilej

    Tirilej Still a Lady CAG

    Occupation:
    Breathing
    Location:
    Sweden

    The player should have read the terms but no he hadn't done that. He didn't know he couldn't claim both bonuses.
    He had played like that several times and also been paid once when using bonuses at both. Of course then he believes it's ok.

    The thing is that others have asked live chat and was allowed to use bonuses at both accounts. I think it's a little sad if some are but others not.
    Maybe that was just for a one time occasion but I'm not sure those players knew that.

    I know it was a lot of complains earlier about them not writing that they were sister casinos so people didn't even know.

    Of course they are not evil. They just reads their own rules in a too strict way. Maybe new employers because this I didn't expect from them.
     

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