Summary of English Harbour situation

Linus

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I posted a summary of the English Harbour situation over at 2+2. I was hoping some of you would take a look at it, and tell me if it's more or less correct.

Thanks!

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thelawnet

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Seems a bit early for a summary. Best wait till Spearmaster's statement on Monday.... The thread here on the complaints forum has already been locked till then.
 

caruso

Banned User - repetitive violations of 1.6 - troll
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Well done, Linus.

Only mistake is it's Shakleford, not Shackleton.

Some rather bonehead replies though. Somebody could do worse than addressing them - I don't have an account there.

BTW - brilliant "bonus link". :)
 

Linus

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Thanks. I'll have to edit the "Shackleton" thing. Thanks for pointing it out.


Lawnet: I really think it's about over, don't you?

I mean, spearmaster has already said what he's going to say, hasn't he?
 

jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
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Location
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Linus said:
Thanks. I'll have to edit the "Shackleton" thing. Thanks for pointing it out.


Lawnet: I really think it's about over, don't you?

I mean, spearmaster has already said what he's going to say, hasn't he?


I'm in London at present on the move so forgive me if I don't immediately respond to any replies to this.

Guys, this need not "be over" as you put it until you are satisfied, or are unable in practical terms to take the matter any further.

Starting another thread here when the original one has been locked because our host wishes to await the issue of Spear's report is simply creating more noise without meaningful activity on your part. By meaningful I mean gathering the evidence you have been so insistent is required, as opposed to simply posting your views.

Personally, I am confident that Spear will provide a professional summary which I can trust, but we will all make our own decisions as individuals on the acceptability or otherwise of his findings (and for that matter The Wizard's) and obviously some of you have already formed pretty concrete opinions of your own anyway.

One thing I can't help noticing is the lack of real action from those of you who are clearly convinced that EH is crooked. This is not meant to be a provocative statement, but you have vigorously, even aggressively exercised your right to express an opinion on the incident, its possible (probable?) roots and even the capabilities of the unfortunate Spearmaster.

But I don't see any of you following up with the action you have demanded Spear take for you ie trying to get the 3 year logs and directly asking questions you feel have not been adequately addressed.

Spear has on several occasions pointed out that he does not speak for EH, so it can't be that that is holding you back. If you believe these 3 years worth of logs and their detailed interpretation is essential perhaps you should be taking the initiative and requesting a seperate approach from EH here?

If they refuse, you will feel to some extent that your opinions have been vindicated. If they do produce them you will have achieved one of your goals and will be able to assess the material and report back to the various boards where you are posting on this issue.

This way you establish your own enquiry and can directly ask all the questions and address the postulations you were firing at Spear in the original thread.

Before you pour scorn on this suggestion on the grounds that EH management might ignore you, why not give it a try? And bear in mind that this group is now a subsidiary of a larger and publicly listed group.
 

derelict

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Jetset, I will refrain from responding per CM's wishes, but while highly unprecedented, the suggestion of taking the issue up with them directly may be a reasonable one.

PM sent to the rep listed here. Both the join and activity date are recent, so perhaps they will listen.
 

dominique

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I have not posted on the matter or blacklisted the software because I like to see all available facts first.

And no, I don't advertise them at this time anyway nor do I have any type of relationship with them, in case you are one of the people who like to scream about "vested interest".

And if I did advertise them, I would be even more interested in the truth. Got to know just who you are dealing with before making business decisions.

I have confidence in Spear as well as Michael and am patient and waiting. I don't want to rush any type analysis.
 

Casinomeister

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Linus said:
I posted a summary of the English Harbour situation over at 2+2. I was hoping some of you would take a look at it, and tell me if it's more or less correct.

Thanks!

Oops. (duh):
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Just stepping in for a moment on a Sunday.

If this is a summary of the EH situation in a nutshell, well you're only offering half the shell. You didn't mention that EH admitted that their first statement was in error since they initially analyzed the wrong information. You ought to know know that using the term "fixed" software is a lot different than uploading the "wrong" codes. I'm really dismayed that you feel you need to bait a thread with comments that can poison objective thinking.

You also failed to mention that the EH thread was temporarily locked because members of this forum were not exercising restraint concerning this issue. You make it seem that this is a finished case, and that I'm trying to censor everyone. Thanks a whole hell of a lot.
 

soflat

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jetset,

I don't remember anyone demanding the Spearmaster get the logs. EH is reading the thread and was directly asked to supply them. It has been the Wizard of Odds job to analyze logs and ensure fair gameplay. Spearmaster's report will not address the root problem if the logs are not analyzed. EH and The Wizard already agreed that the logs should be analyzed.
 

Vesuvio

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jetset said:
Spear has on several occasions pointed out that he does not speak for EH, so it can't be that that is holding you back. If you believe these 3 years worth of logs and their detailed interpretation is essential perhaps you should be taking the initiative and requesting a seperate approach from EH here?
As mentioned above, people have been appealing to EH directly but the only responses so far have been from Spearmaster.

I don't see that a few people trying to recover logs is the way forward. It's bad enough trying to get logs from a casino for a recent session of play - logs going back over a year are going to be a nightmare to recover even if you know the exact dates and times you played. Then assuming the data's available it's quite possible that there'll be too few results to say anything statistically significant.

EH on the other hand can almost certainly provide the full information with a minimum of time or effort (if it's not incorporated into the audit software I'm sure a routine to automate reporting on doubling could be hacked up in minutes). The April figures were quickly produced, after all. Actually I'd be amazed if EH don't already have all the figures in front of them (surely you'd check to see if there was any risk to your business) - if they show nothing wrong then surely it would be in their best interest to provide them to players?
 

Freudian

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europe
Casinomeister said:
You didn't mention that EH admitted that their first statement was in error since they initially analyzed the wrong information.

But the statement was made after they had patched the software. How on earth could they have been ignorant of the fault at that time?

I am really struggling to understand why you guys take these huge leaps of faith in defense of EH in the face of obvious evidence to the contrary.
 

Freudian

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jetset said:
Personally, I am confident that Spear will provide a professional summary which I can trust, but we will all make our own decisions as individuals on the acceptability or otherwise of his findings (and for that matter The Wizard's) and obviously some of you have already formed pretty concrete opinions of your own anyway.

I am sure his summary will be fine. The problem is that he is testing a hypothesis most don't dispute or think is particularly interesting. I think pretty much everyone here expects the code he recieved to exhibit the behaviour predicted. I don't know what the big scoop is supposed to be.

What most people are interested in can't be answered by that piece of code. Nor by English Harbours silence. :)
 
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soflat

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Florida
Freudian said:
I am sure his summary will be fine. The problem is that he is testing a hypothesis most don't dispute or think is particularly interesting. I think pretty much everyone here expects the code he recieved to exhibit the behaviour predicted. I don't know what the big scoop is supposed to be.

What most people are interested in can't be answered by that piece of code. Nor by English Harbours silence. :)

That's true. Unfortunately that code is all we've got. I think the programmers here will find it interesting, but that is about it.

Hopefully the Wizard of Odds will resurface with the results we are hoping to see.
 

Linus

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TX
jetset said:
But I don't see any of you following up with the action you have demanded Spear take for you ie trying to get the 3 year logs and directly asking questions you feel have not been adequately addressed.

Hi Jet.

I never asked for the 3 year logs, because 1.) the casino will never provide them unless they show what the casino wants, and 2.) if they do provide them, no one here has any way of knowing whether they're genuine.

However, I have nothing to lose by asking, so:

Hi,

I'm writing to request logs of your Video Poker doubling game through at least January 2004.

In light of the problems with the game during April, I hope you'll agree this is a reasonable request.

If you agree, I will post the records on CasinoMeister.com. If the logs show the problems with the doubling game were a one-time event, hopefully that will reassure people that your games are fair.

Thank you,
xxxxx xxxxx
 

Linus

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Casinomeister said:
Just stepping in for a moment on a Sunday.

If this is a summary of the EH situation in a nutshell, well you're only offering half the shell. You didn't mention that EH admitted that their first statement was in error since they initially analyzed the wrong information. You ought to know know that using the term "fixed" software is a lot different than uploading the "wrong" codes. I'm really dismayed that you feel you need to bait a thread with comments that can poison objective thinking.

You also failed to mention that the EH thread was temporarily locked because members of this forum were not exercising restraint concerning this issue. You make it seem that this is a finished case, and that I'm trying to censor everyone. Thanks a whole hell of a lot.

Bryan, I'm sorry you think the summary wasn't accurate. I'm happy to add your comments to the thread, however.


Edit: On second thought, please let me know if you'd like me to copy your comments to the thread. Thanks.
 

Casinomeister

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Linus said:
...Edit: On second thought, please let me know if you'd like me to copy your comments to the thread. Thanks.
Thanks for asking. Go ahead; I don't care.
 

Macgyver

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Linus said:
I never asked for the 3 year logs, because 1.) the casino will never provide them unless they show what the casino wants, and 2.) if they do provide them, no one here has any way of knowing whether they're genuine.

This is what spearmaster is talking about ... some people have made up their mind that EH was cheating deliberately, and nothing EH can do will change that. Some (like spearmaster) are willing to hold off until they have all the information/evidence they want and then make the decision.

Everyone (on both sides) is entitled to their decision however they reached it ... in my opinion, the other thread was locked until Monday so that people would be forced to agree to disagree.

If people could just do that (agree to disagree), I think there'd be a lot less personal accusations and attacks on integrity.
 

soflat

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There were just a few people who did personal attacks and that stuff.

The rest just seem to want to see the facts (i.e. the logs) so they can finally make a decision.

They also seem frustrated by the code taking center stage (a distraction), which causes things to get a little heated at times.
 

jetset

RIP Brian
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Location
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derelict said:
Jetset, I will refrain from responding per CM's wishes, but while highly unprecedented, the suggestion of taking the issue up with them directly may be a reasonable one.

PM sent to the rep listed here. Both the join and activity date are recent, so perhaps they will listen.

Thanks Derelict - it's good to see someone tackling this in a more direct way than posting on the fora.

I for one would be grateful if you would post progress reports on your approach to the EH rep.
 

jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
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Location
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Macgyver said:
This is what spearmaster is talking about ... some people have made up their mind that EH was cheating deliberately, and nothing EH can do will change that. Some (like spearmaster) are willing to hold off until they have all the information/evidence they want and then make the decision.

Everyone (on both sides) is entitled to their decision however they reached it ... in my opinion, the other thread was locked until Monday so that people would be forced to agree to disagree.

If people could just do that (agree to disagree), I think there'd be a lot less personal accusations and attacks on integrity.

Could not have said it better, Mac!
 

Vesuvio

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Macgyver said:
Some (like spearmaster) are willing to hold off until they have all the information/evidence they want and then make the decision.
Spear has been dismissive of the cheating theory almost from the outset here (certainly from just after receiving the code), and has even taken it upon himself at times to speculate positively on EH's motives and actions without consulting them first. I don't have too much of a problem with that, and I'm sure he tells it how he sees it, but that doesn't mean everyone who disagrees with him is a biased troublemaker.

Of course we could do with some input from EH, but if you're suggesting judgement should be suspended until we know whether the code given to one person would produce the results in question (which isn't particularly in doubt) I think that's ludicrous.

Healthy debate and trying to see two sides of a picture is what makes this forum worthwhile. Despite your claims almost everyone on here would accept (if not condone) the casino story if there's suddenly some killer evidence that proves it to be true. Pending that happening we have to judge on the basis of plausibility. Agreeing to disagree is fine, though it's a last resort in a debate as both sides can't be right and what matters in the end is the truth. Airing disagreements is perhaps the best chance of getting anywhere close to that, though of course the less acrimony the better.
 
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derelict

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Vesuvio said:
Healthy debate and trying to see two sides of a picture is what makes this forum worthwhile. Despite your claims almost everyone on here would accept (if not condone) the casino story if there's suddenly some killer evidence that proves it to be true. Pending that happening we have to judge on the basis of plausibility. Agreeing to disagree is fine, though it's a last resort in a debate as both sides can't be right and what matters in the end is the truth. Airing disagreements is perhaps the best chance of getting anywhere close to that, though of course the less acrimony the better.

Well said.

jetset said:
Thanks Derelict - it's good to see someone tackling this in a more direct way than posting on the fora.

I for one would be grateful if you would post progress reports on your approach to the EH rep.

It's probably too soon to expect anything, the rep hasn't logged on since the 19th. Although I think I put my request to them in reasonable terms and explained my position on the situation, I wasn't aware that others have asked for the data already. Don't get your hopes up but I'll certainly let you know if I get a response.
 

Simmo!

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
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Vesuvio said:
Healthy debate and trying to see two sides of a picture is what makes this forum worthwhile....the less acrimony the better.

:thumbsup:
 

dominique

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Vesuvio said:
Healthy debate and trying to see two sides of a picture is what makes this forum worthwhile........

Agreeing to disagree is fine, though it's a last resort in a debate as both sides can't be right and what matters in the end is the truth. Airing disagreements is perhaps the best chance of getting anywhere close to that, though of course the less acrimony the better.

Right on, Vesuvio.

That is precicely what makes this forum so valuable.

Different opinions are food for thought, and as long as they are presented devoid of hostility, that's a great thing.
 

Linus

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Macgyver said:
This is what spearmaster is talking about ... some people have made up their mind that EH was cheating deliberately, and nothing EH can do will change that

I did make up my mind about EH - After trying the software myself, and after seeing them post that their software was, in fact, fair. I thought that was pretty much all I needed.

When I first saw the thread, however, I was all-but dismissive. I thought, "Oh, here's another claim of a fixed deal. I'm sure it'll turn out the sample is too small, or the math is wrong, or it was just a run of bad luck."

But then it turned out - not only was the sample perfectly adequate - the results were reproduceable.

I thought the casino had a huge problem. I figured there'd be a hue and cry from players. We do, after all, depend on the integrity of the games, and, generally speaking, have no way of independently verifying that they are in fact fair.

I don't know what I thought, exactly. But looking back, I guess I thought they'd have to submit to a complete & independent audit of both their games and their software, if they wanted to win the confidence of their players back.

None of that happened, of course.

Instead, they sent some code to Spearmaster, who argues we should trust them.


But to be honest, I don't much care about EH anymore.

What bothers me about this is the precedent it seems to set. It seems to say, "Running fair games isn't that big of a deal. As long as you can come up with a half-way plausible explanation, the players will forgive you."

That seems like a terrible precedent, to my way of thinking.
 
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