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Bonus Complaint Stupid bonus terms, need lawyer to understand - Vernons casino

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Bonus Issues' started by thelawnet, Feb 15, 2012.

    Feb 15, 2012
  1. thelawnet

    thelawnet Dormant account

    Occupation:
    programmer
    Location:
    UK
    They sent me an email, please join our casino, £250 100% bonus.

    Ok, so I signup, read through the terms quickly, hmm 'The sum awarded as a First Deposit Bonus is non-redeemable.'

    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    Chat pops up, they want me to deposit £250 for the first deposit bonus.

    I ask if I can withdraw the bonus.

    Answer: 'You need to meet the wagering'

    So I ask again 'Yes, but can I withdraw it after that'

    Answer: 'You can only withdraw the winnings....'

    [​IMG]

    Seriously WTF? Make a casino, offer a bonus if you want, but if you are going to put people through this BS why bother? Just say 'we are a great casino with great customer service and sorry we have no bonuses'. This is not a bonus, it's a trick to catch the unwary. You are much better off/more likely to win without the bonus, especially considering the wagering requirement is £50,000.....
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2012
  2. Feb 15, 2012
  3. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Lots of casinos have "Phantom" bonuses with insane WR - even accredited ones - so I don't understand what your issue is exactly...? :confused:

    KK
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. Feb 15, 2012
  5. Surasanji

    Surasanji Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Call-center customer support
    Location:
    Israel
    Sticky!


    Stupid perhaps, but its a very standard term for a bonus.

    Its called 'Sticky', as in the bonus sticks with the casino.

    They should only request the initial amount of the bonus, when you function a withdrawal.

    Furthermore, its plain there in the T&Cs?.. I fail to see the issue. Don't use it, if you don't want it, buddy! ;)
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. Feb 15, 2012
  7. thelawnet

    thelawnet Dormant account

    Occupation:
    programmer
    Location:
    UK
    There were two problems here.

    Firstly, I don't believe for a moment that the majority of casual users will realise the significance of 'The sum awarded as a First Deposit Bonus is non-redeemable.'

    No explanation is given on this, it's just one short sentence.

    They should explain it:

    'The First Deposit Bonus is non-withdrawable, which means that the amount of the bonus will be deducted from your balance after you make a withdrawal. '

    Secondly, when I specifically asked her if I could withdraw the bonus, the answer should have been NO, but she said 'You need to meet the wagering requirements first'.

    Saying in answer to 'Can I withdraw the bonus?' 'You need to meet the WR first', to me reads like 'YES'.



    To be clear, casinos have the right to make crappy bonuses, my complaint is when it's not made clear to potential users how crappy they are. Actually the most egregious offence here is when she doesn't anwer my question properly....
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. Feb 15, 2012
  9. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    Why did you have to ask the question in the first place, when you already knew what it meant? The CSR may have given the wrong answer initially but they made it clear further on during the chat.

    I'm also lost as to what the issue is....
     
  10. Feb 15, 2012
  11. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
    There are both cashable bonuses and non-cashable bonuses and actually the latter is more prevalent nowadays. There are 2 reasons given for the non-cashable bonuses ie longer entertainment period and the funds to make larger bets without a huge bankroll. This is useful if one wants to hit the random jackpots at rtg casinos. Maybe Lawnet has been off the scene for so long he doesnt even realise that these bonuses are commonplace. What I find interesting is the word 'non-redeemable'. Does it mean you cant redeem the bonus at all making it non-existent? Its usually called non-withdrawable or non-cashable.
     
  12. Feb 15, 2012
  13. Jennifer

    Jennifer Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas

    Occupation:
    stuff
    Location:
    canada
    I agree fully. There have been a few casinos where I have had to make sure to spell it out for support so I get a direct yes or no. They tend to mislead you and not want to tell you outright "sorry you get nothing this is just a gimmick of sorts".

    Ive even got to the point where if a cs agent tells me one thing, I take a screenshot so I cant get burned later on.

    Im glad to see others are taking pre-cautions by pressing support to confirm their suspicions. You can never be too careful when it comes to risking your own money.
     
  14. Feb 15, 2012
  15. Tengil

    Tengil Senior Member

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    Finland
    The question is of course how a newbie would look at it.

    What if the newbie would have stopped chatting after the You need to meet the wagering?
     
  16. Feb 15, 2012
  17. thelawnet

    thelawnet Dormant account

    Occupation:
    programmer
    Location:
    UK
    ?

    Why do you say I already knew?

    I asked because I wasn't sure, exactly as I said in the chat.

    Do you know what a 'non-redeemable term deposit' is?

    Do you think it's reasonable to expect people to know what a 'non-redeemable' bonus is?

    I think, if you tell people they are getting £250 bonus, they expect that to mean just that. If it means something else, money that evaporates on withdrawal, that needs to be made clearer than this.

    Only because I asked again. She wasn't going to say otherwise.
     
  18. Feb 15, 2012
  19. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    The OP isn't a newb and knows the score.

    If what a CSR tells you and the stated terms clash, then the stated terms apply. It's common sense.

    It's obvious what the term means in this case, and anyone who accepts an answer that clearly clashes with the written terms, and doesn't question further to make sure, isn't doing their due diligence.
     
  20. Feb 15, 2012
  21. Tengil

    Tengil Senior Member

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    Finland
    facepalm.jpg

    The main issue was how a newbie would view it, not the OP.
     
  22. Feb 15, 2012
  23. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    You've been around for years. You know what it means.

    It is not a case of being promised a bonus and then not receiving one. You could have taken the $250 as offered.....whether its phantom or whatever is completely irrelevant.
     
  24. Feb 15, 2012
  25. thelawnet

    thelawnet Dormant account

    Occupation:
    programmer
    Location:
    UK
    They've been commonplace for nearly a decade now I would think.

    Well yes, that was precisely my point.

    No casino has a 'redeem' button in the cashier, unless it's to claim a bonus perhaps.

    You 'withdraw' your winnings, you never 'redeem' them.

    My point was that anything not immediately obvious to someone who's never played at a casino, should be explained clearly up-front. Vernons have been involved with gambling for a century I think now, and many potential users are not going to understand anything about online gambling.

    If someone says '£200 bonus', a naive user will understand that to mean cash.

    Any 'tricks', such as wagering requirements, non-withdrawable, etc., need to be explained CLEARLY. Non-withdrawable, in particular, is something that I don't think most people want, nor understand the implications of, so it really needs to spelled out, not obfuscated as 'non-redeemable'.

    I always worry when I see these otherwise reputable brands have setup a Playtech casino, just because you know there will be a host of tricky rules that you wouldn't associate with their overall brand. And of course customer service will be outsourced to Nadia&friends.....
     
    3 people like this.
  26. Feb 15, 2012
  27. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    Then the newbie needs to learn to wait until the chat session has been completed before bailing out of the chat session. Kind of a non-issue in my opinion.

    I'm not seeing what the big deal is here. The bonus states, "The sum awarded as a First Deposit Bonus is non-redeemable" which to me means that it's not to be withdrawn. Maybe they should explain it better like thelawnet mentioned, but it's no reason to call your lawyer :p
     
  28. Feb 15, 2012
  29. Tengil

    Tengil Senior Member

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    Finland
    The chat rep wouldnt have explained it any further if not asked. Thats the point.
     
  30. Feb 15, 2012
  31. thelawnet

    thelawnet Dormant account

    Occupation:
    programmer
    Location:
    UK
    I find that quite rude actually, I've explained that I wasn't sure.

    I received this:

    Now the suggestion here is that I am a loyal customer, and I'm getting a special deal.

    I've not signed up to a casino in many a moon, but the phrasing of the email led me to think there might be something worth having here.

    So anyway, I download, install, signup, and as I'm still looking around 'Nadia' pops up asking me to deposit £250.

    I've not read the full terms yet, but Nadia is already all over me like a rash, and I've spotted the words 'non-redeemable' and there's a mental conflict between that, which is suggestive of 'non-withdrawable', and my preconception that they were going to offer me a good deal.

    They use non-standard terminology, they pressurise you to deposit when you've just signed up (and still have the £20 'free' to play with, so really don't need to deposit yet), they failed to answer my question the first time, and you are suggesting I'm the one who's been less than honest????

    I never said it was. I said it was a case of use of confusing wording, that is far too brief considering the implications, and of not answering my question properly.

    This bonus is automatic. Yes, you can opt out, but most people will get it. Do you think the average Vernons customer, who is probably older, and has been filling in a football pools coupon for decades, is going to understand all of this?

    Eh? It's not irrelevant, the bonus is either good or not. For most people in this world, if you tell them the bonus is not theirs to keep, they will say 'well I don't want it then'. That's the case here, but it's not made clear enough.

    To my mind something as fundamental as that should be right there in the bonus offer - '£250 non-withdrawable bonus', but at least if you are going to put it in the terms, use normal language that is unambiguous.

    You could come up with three or four different definitions of 'non-redeemable'.
     
  32. Feb 15, 2012
  33. thelawnet

    thelawnet Dormant account

    Occupation:
    programmer
    Location:
    UK
    Really?

    I asked her a plain question, to which the answer was 'No, never', and she gave me an answer that implied 'Yes, you can'.

    The answer to 'Can you withdraw the bonus' is NO. Any other answer is irrelevant and misleading, and not really a non-issue, because it amounts to £250 that they are going to get, or not, based on the answer to that question.

    I think the non-withdrawable bonus thing is kinda fundamental, this is probably because I haven't spent enough time looking at f***ed up casino terms lately (most of them, nowadays), whereas people who look at them all day, just say 'meh, that's nothing', as they're kind of immune to the casino BS, and see something like this as just humdrum.

    Humdrum it might be in online casino terms, but that doesn't make it acceptable, IMO, I think in other consumer-facing industries this wouldn't fly.

    Well, that wasn't the best wording maybe, I wouldn't sue them about it, so I've changed it slightly, I meant that the wording 'non-redeemable' is not clear, and required interpretation, in the manner that a lawyer interprets the law.....
     
  34. Feb 15, 2012
  35. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    The problem is that the rep jumps on you as soon as you open the site, and tries to "hard sell" you the "deposit right now - I will look after everything", and often will not give a potential player the time to navigate around the site and read the terms.

    I have seen this at a few casinos when I have visited the website in order to look around, check the offers, and then check the terms. The chat window pops up over the page and I can't read anything. I close it, but a few seconds later up it pops again, and again. Reading the terms, or anything else, is a process interrupted every few seconds by having to close the "hard sell" pop-up trying to railroad me into accepting the deal by depositing right away, and THEN read the actual terms.

    Where such a "hard sell" process is used, the CS are responsible for giving the correct answers to players who are not left alone to freely look around the site and make a decision in their own time.

    Experienced players would not fall for this, if anything, it would put them off. The key here is that this is a predatory sales tactic that is not only designed to rush the player into making a decision to deposit without fully reading and digesting the terms, but is now illegal under UK law under the updated "unfair business practices act".

    The email offer is also a misleading advertisement under a different law, as it misrepresents the nature of this "free money". Anything described as "free" must actually be included in the "sale", which in the case of a bonus would mean it could be withdrawn once any contractual terms have been satisfied, in this case a WR.

    An experienced player who finds out newbies might be subject to unfair and predatory tactics should not come under fire for "blowing the whistle", although it would be fair to criticise such a person for failing to exercise judgement and falling for such a trick themselves.
     
    2 people like this.
  36. Feb 25, 2012
  37. Slot Mad

    Slot Mad Dormant account

    Occupation:
    igaming
    Location:
    malta
    These types of bonuses are just damaging the brand of reputable companies like Vernons.
    That said they're obviously not the sharpest tools in the box given that their download casino link leads to...
    "NOT FOUND

    The requested resource was not found.

    http://www.vernons.com/download"
     

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