Statues

[shadow123]

Amazing not a single post about the recent demos and dumping of statues,shame we avoid talking about subjects like this.
My own take is that no one has the right to demand which statues should be taken, down, ok i can understand how some
can be seen as offensive to some but when you start talking about Baden Powell, Charles Dickens, and Francis Drake its
our history and if there really is good reason to remove them it should be done through the democratic process not through
demands and hit lists.
Bear in mind that for centuries the indiginous population in this country were treated as little more than slaves in the fields and factories,so it wasnt just the black people that sufferred. We cant do a thing to change the past but its not right to erase our history, it belongs to all of us be it good or bad.

 

[dealer wins]

I am absolutely beyond livid at events in the UK in the last couple of weeks, I better not post what I think otherwise I will find myself banned.

 

[TheAddict]

Amazing not a single post about the recent demos and dumping of statues,shame we avoid talking about subjects like this.
My own take is that no one has the right to demand which statues should be taken, down, ok i can undersand how some
can be seen as offensive to some but when you start talking about Baden Powell, Charles Dickens, and Francis Drake its
our history and if there really is good reason to remove them it should be done through the democratic process not through
demands and hit lists.
Bear in mind that for centuries the indiginous population in this country were treated as little more than slaves in the fields and factories,so it wasnt just the black people that sufferred. We cant do a thing to change the past but its not right to erase our history, it belongs to all of us be it good or bad.

Some of these people are so intelligent that they decided to pull over statues while one of their fellow nutjobs stands underneath it..

 

[bamberfishcake]

I agree with you massively but when the so called democratic system is erm...lets say...no longer democratic then protest/action is the only way.

I do think a country looking after their citizens should have said 'you have the right to protest, but not now' as they have done more harm than good in my opinion letting them get together during a pandemic.

Defacing Churchills statue was wrong in my opinion. I dont really have much of an opinion on the Edwards Colsten one as i had not heard of him.......

Anybody see Banksy's idea for the new statue to replace the old one.....

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Edit: Not justifying these protests but sometimes its the only way.

 

[brianmon]

This sums it up...

 

[shadow123]

Got very mixed views about Churchill,he was very willing to sacrifice other peoples lives, but he was the only
person Hitler was truly afraid of and I am sure we would not have won the war without him,dont forget
that many nations and many races were liberated when we defeated Germany.I think that justifies the statues
of him being erected.

 

[shadow123]

This sums it up...

View attachment 134037

Bloody hell

 

[Kroffe]

I think its part of the history being left out that makes people upset.
Francis drake: Great guy, explored some stuff, sold some people, won some fights.

But when learning about him in schools, the whole slave trading deal does not seem to be part of the curriculum, if i understood that right.
But im guessing you guys are just as upset over that, because thats also changing history, right?

 

[lewisnadasurf]

Im very much an ignorance is bliss attitude with it. but im aware that may sound ignorant in itself.

Let me put it this way

I have 2 kids - they go to school and learn about what Francis Drake the explorer (not the bad parts). They dont know what racism is. They have black friends, they have eastern European friends. They dont know what racism is. They are raised to treat everyone the same 'treat others as you'd expect to be treated' - they dont know what racism is. Why would you want kids to know? Learn about culture, what different people do in different parts of the world and respect it. You dont have to enjoy it, but they do. Just respect your fellow human being.

Racism isnt born into anyone, its taught. If you dont know about it, you wont treat anyone any differently for any reason.

Tearing down a few statues isnt going to solve anything. It might make some people feel a bit better in the short term. Its society that needs to take a step back as a whole. This isnt going to be solved in the next 1,5 or even 10 years.

Raise your kids to love one another. Follow that, over time - equality will come.

 

[slotplayer]

I think its part of the history being left out that makes people upset.
Francis drake: Great guy, explored some stuff, sold some people, won some fights.

But when learning about him in schools, the whole slave trading deal does not seem to be part of the curriculum, if i understood that right.
But im guessing you guys are just as upset over that, because thats also changing history, right?

Its more likely imo slave trading was mentioned back in the day but played down and Drakes accomplishments were emphasized whereas with todays "woke" people slave trading was emphasized in school as indicated by the triggered emotional response to the statues.

 

[Kroffe]

Its more likely imo slave trading was mentioned back in the day but played down and Drakes accomplishments were emphasized whereas with todays "woke" people slave trading was emphasized in school as indicated by the triggered emotional response to the statues.

Well the comment above yours kind of says otherwise. "not the bad parts"
Erasing the bad parts of history is ok, but removing some statues is not?
I dont know why anyone would want slave trader statues around, no matter what color you are.

 

[shadow123]

We cant live in the past, it was shit for almost everyone except the rich,you certainly shouldnt use it to justify
rioting and blaming the whites for everything,What happenned to George Floyd was bad to say the least but
nothing to do with Baden Powell etc.It was a US incident and as far as I know nothing like that has happenned
in this country, yep there have been deaths in custody here but for whites as well as blacks.

 

[slotplayer]

Well the comment above yours kind of says otherwise. "not the bad parts"
Erasing the bad parts of history is ok, but removing some statues is not?
I dont know why anyone would want slave trader statues around, no matter what color you are.

Removing the statue erases history, keeping the statue around preserves history, good or bad.

 

[dealer wins]

We cant live in the past, it was shit for almost everyone except the rich,you certainly shouldnt use it to justify
rioting and blaming the whites for everything,What happenned to George Floyd was bad to say the least but
nothing to do with Baden Powell etc.It was a US incident and as far as I know nothing like that has happenned
in this country, yep there have been deaths in custody here but for whites as well as blacks.

Nearly every death in custody, black white or inbetween, will be the fault of the person themselves. Either violently resisting arrest, from swallowing drugs etc etc

 

[shadow123]

Well the comment above yours kind of says otherwise. "not the bad parts"
Erasing the bad parts of history is ok, but removing some statues is not?
I dont know why anyone would want slave trader statues around, no matter what color you are.

The statues were not to commerate slave traders,they were erected to celebrate the achievement of these people,if its taken all this time for people to realize that some of those achievements were made possible
though the use of slave labour,its a failing but it is well documented and never been hidden.

 

[shadow123]

I can only put it down to lockdown madness,one things for sure 2020 wont be forgotten

 

[lewisnadasurf]

Well the comment above yours kind of says otherwise. "not the bad parts"
Erasing the bad parts of history is ok, but removing some statues is not?
I dont know why anyone would want slave trader statues around, no matter what color you are.

I ask, what is teaching about slavery in school going to achieve? An 11 year kid could either take it as A. "ah man, people back then were assholes" or B. "why on earth did that do that? why did they think like that? am i better than black people then?"

Admittedly most will fall into point A, but, like real life, a minority will fall in column B.

Again this is only my opinion. Going back on the past - you will find crap everywhere, people were arseholes.

 

[Kroffe]

I ask, what is teaching about slavery in school going to achieve? An 11 year kid could either take it as A. "ah man, people back then were assholes" or B. "why on earth did that do that? why did they think like that? am i better than black people then?"

Admittedly most will fall into point A, but, like real life, a minority will fall in column B.

Again this is only my opinion. Going back on the past - you will find crap everywhere, people were arseholes.

Whats the point in teaching history at all then?
Oh that Hitler guy was a pretty great painter, and a very passionate public speaker.
Super successful politician aswell.
Why bother bringing up any of the bad stuff he did when we can focus on the good?

Edit: Some smartypants said it better than me "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"

 

[Kroffe]

Removing the statue erases history, keeping the statue around preserves history, good or bad.

How does it erase history any more than teaching just the good parts of it?
The things Francis did still happened even if the statues are removed.
People can still read about it, actually not a single thing about the history of Francis is erased.
It all still happened, and anyone interested can still find out about it.

I think its weirder to fight to save all the shitty statues of confederate assholes or slave traders.

 

[Luckyscouser45]

I am absolutely beyond livid at events in the UK in the last couple of weeks, I better not post what I think otherwise I will find myself banned.

Ok however why was you not mortified with people having VE Day parties during lockdown and then flocking to beaches and parks and non social distancing! Dont be a hypocrite and choose to be outraged Just because they are brown and black faces, I’m sure you wasn’t bothered when people up and down the country were having bbqs with non household members during lockdown! Hope you was livid about Dominic Cummings as well!!!!

 

[lewisnadasurf]

Whats the point in teaching history at all then?
Oh that Hitler guy was a pretty great painter, and a very passionate public speaker.
Super successful politician aswell.
Why bother bringing up any of the bad stuff he did when we can focus on the good?

Edit: Some smartypants said it better than me "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"

I would argue about the painting abilities!

you can teach a 11 year old about World War 2 without going into the “final solution” - people can learn that when they’re older.

 

[dealer wins]

No I wasnt livid, because people at the parks and beaches were not smashing things up, rioting and attacking the police.

 

[cncas2123]

Whats next after the statues are all removed? What will be the next to go? Are all the history books going to be rewritten with any people considered unsavoury in today's climate removed from them?
Were will the stopping point be?
Do we go after the families of people who made their fortunes in the past when the world was a different place?
I don't know the answers. I do know that for me it wouldnt have mattered whether George Floyd was black, white, yellow, green, orange or any colour what happened to him was wrong, it shouldnt have happened and no death at the hands of the people who are meant to protect us is acceptable, with the exception of if it is to protect their own life.

 

[pinnit2014]

I would argue about the painting abilities!

you can teach a 11 year old about World War 2 without going into the “final solution” - people can learn that when they’re older.

Pretty sure you'd be hard pressed to find any teachings of WW2 without the 'bit' about the final solution; certainly it was whenever i was being schooled: IMO you either teach it all or none; otherwise you'd just end up with endless cherry picking.

But now we have google, so there is that.

 

[bamberfishcake]

How does it erase history any more than teaching just the good parts of it?
The things Francis did still happened even if the statues are removed.
People can still read about it, actually not a single thing about the history of Francis is erased.
It all still happened, and anyone interested can still find out about it.

I think its weirder to fight to save all the shitty statues of confederate assholes or slave traders.

I agree history should be taught both good and bad. Kids are not stupid and they know the difference.

I also agree some things should be kept out of teaching until they are a bit older but passed a certain age why hold back?

Plenty of other examples of great explorers and painters throughout history without using the same ones because they always have been on the curriculum.

History is written by the winner etc etc Why shouldnt we look back and go hang on a minute, he was wrong by todays standards because of this or that.

Maybe even let the younger generation decide if they were good or bad.