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Casino Complaint Spin Palace doesn't want to pay me

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Non-Bonus Issues' started by chipsalex, Oct 27, 2009.

    Oct 27, 2009
  1. chipsalex

    chipsalex Banned User

    Occupation:
    Sales rep
    Location:
    Montreal
    Hi all,

    I recently won 800$ playing slots at this casino. This was my first deposit so I got a 100% bonus which I was told that I had to wager a certain amlunt before cashing out.
    I did do this and then cashed out.
    2 weeks later they send me this email:


    Following a review of your account, we have identified that you are in breach of the casinos standard Terms, as per Term 11.
    - Please refer specifically to the following clause:

    VIII) If the Player has not played at the Casino on an individual basis for personal entertainment only (that is, the Player has played in a professional sense or in concert with other Player(s) as part of a club, group, etc.)

    Please be advised that your initial deposit of 100 has been refunded and that all winnings or bonuses gained as a result of said deposit have been confiscated.


    They told me that I could contact ecogra to have the reversed which I did.
    They sent me this email:

    We have investigated your query with Spin Palace Casino and have made the following findings;

    Your account has been linked to other accounts
    This is in breach of the following clause in the published Terms and Conditions:
    VIII) If the Player has not played at the Casino on an individual basis for personal entertainment only (that is, the Player has played in a professional sense or in concert with other Player(s) as part of a club, group, etc.)
    Your $100 deposit has been refunded.

    We have reviewed the links and are satisfied that the operator has acted according to their Terms and Conditions in locking your account at Spin Palace Casino. For security reasons we are not at liberty to disclose the nature of the links.


    Is this standard procedure?? I thought this was a good casino!!
    Are they allowed to just say these lies to anyone?
    No explanation at all, just "Your account has been linked to other accounts".

    What am I suppose to do to get my money back??
     
  2. Oct 28, 2009
  3. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    This looks like a veiled accusation of what casinos call fraud. This business of "links to other accounts" is an accusation that you are acting with a group of players. This could be a small group, perhaps a few friends pooling their funds together to "do sign-up bonuses". Profits and losses being shared between the group, and with each member of the group joining the casinos concerned.
    This is where the "professional" bit comes in, they are saying that this group you are supposed to be part of are playing with a view to making a living from playing the sign-up bonuses.

    The "links" are those that should NOT be there if you were each playing individually. Some links can be a matter of opinion, but others will be fact, such as carelessly sharing a deposit method AND ACCOUNT between group members. For example, you use a card to make your deposit, and another member of the group uses the SAME card, yet is supposedly nothing to do with you.
    Links that are more a matter of opinion are those where the casino says players played "in a similar pattern", but there are no direct means of linking them. These players COULD be co-ordinating their efforts over the phone, for example, but could equally well REALLY be individual players who have been members of the same forum, and have read a particular strategy, and independent upon each other, decide to descend on the casino and try it.
    Other factors involve the casino using statistics, for example, if there is a sudden DOUBLING of their customer base from a particular area, where this doubling has been from a base that has taken MONTHS to establish, they will first look to see if any of could be down to factors such as marketing (they might have blitzed the area with CDs for example), if they can find no explanation, they will take the view that these recent new accounts need further investigation. They will then look VERY deeply into them, using the "back-end" software, looking for connection patterns that are absent from what they consider as their normal recreational player base.
    They might find that you all played the SAME slots, with the SAME bet, and in the same WAY - and that you all withdrew as soon as possible after making WR - they would conclude that you were acting as a "club", even if you did nothing overtly fraudulent, such as sharing deposit methods or giving false details.
    Other factors are down to the internet. They check your inbound IP addresses to see if they are consistent with your registration details. It's not accurate, but they can tell if you all signed up at the same "house", yet gave different details. "house" can mean, as far as their end is concerned, ANYWHERE that uses a common shared internet connection, and could be a workplace, university campus, or a house split into "bedsits".
    Some players who are actually INNOCENT can sometimes get caught up in a "fraud ring" because they are "in the wrong place at the wrong time" in internet terms. They cannot therefore be separated from the "ring" when a group of accounts is checked.

    eCogra decisions can be appealed, but it is a case of disproving the evidence against you without being able to see that evidence. Players are expected to trust the rulings of eCogra, and member casinos WILL often find that eCogra overturns a CASINO decision, so it is not really a case of eCogra simply "rubber stamping" the casino decision.
    You may be able to ask Max here if he will take a PAB on this, even though eCogra have already ruled against you. PAB is the "Pitch A Bitch" service of Casinomeister, and is an alternative mediation service. There is no guarantee the outcome will be any different, and if you ARE up to something, you will be "outed", and may have your Casinomeister account banned.

    In order to appeal, you need to think of any reason that you might have become entangled in a ring of "professional players", because the casino certainly thinks this.

    Ultimately, you can take the casino to civil court, but this is rarely done, even though the evidence against you would have to come out into the open. Going to court is usually more expensive than the money at stake, and is not guaranteed. I have, however, noticed an increase in CASINOS making THREATS to take PLAYERS to court to cover "Ill gotten winnings".
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. Oct 28, 2009
  5. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    Hello chipsalex. As VWM has pointed out your primary resource here at Casinomeister for situations like this is the Pitch-A-Bitch (PAB) process, which I manage for Bryan, the site's owner and webmaster.

    If you're interested in finding out what the PAB process entails you'll want to read our Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ.

    If you've read the FAQ, are still interested in doing such a thing, and still qualify to file a PAB per the terms of the FAQ then proceed to fill out the PAB form at the end of the process and send it in. I'll look it over and take it from there.

    So, yes, you can still PAB here even though eCOGRA has already ruled against you. Of course we can't promise that our decision will be any different than theirs but our investigation is completely independent of whatever they have already done so there's always a chance we'll see things differently.

    That said if our investigation reveals that you have falsely presented your case here or to us in the PAB then you most definitely will be 'outed' and your membership at Casinomeister will likely be forfeit, for life. Since your issue started here on the boards such an action would be announced here in this thread as an explanation of what happened and why.

    Finally, as spelled out in the FAQ, it is unwise to continue to post on the forums concerning an issue that you wish to pursue via the PAB process. In general doing so will kill your chances for doing a PAB.

    I think that about covers it. Let me know if you have any questions.

    Regards,
    Max Drayman
    Casinomeister.com, Player Grievance Manager
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. Oct 28, 2009
  7. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    Failure to Follow Forum Rules - Posting Complaints

    Well - we're still waiting...:rolleyes:

    Or is this just another attempt at slandering a casino in public? You just signed up - skipped over the guidelines for dealing with complaints that you agreed to when registering - and just went ahead and trashed one of the accredited casinos here - who is also a member of the forum.

    Why is it that newbie members think they are above the rules we have for this forum - specifically when dealing with complaints? Most everyone else abides by them. Did you contact the casino rep like you were supposed to? If not, why not? Or are these rules not applicable to newbie members?

    Yeah, I'm pissed off. It's people like you who cause this "Complaint Section" to be shut off from newly registered members. It's been done before - I'll do it again.

    I want to see that PAB within the next three hours or you can kiss your membership goodbye.
     
  8. Oct 28, 2009
  9. Tengil

    Tengil Senior Member

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    Finland
    Brings back horrible memories from July. Not Spin Palace but Ladbrokes when I had the following mail:
    "Dear Mr Sucker,

    Thank you for contacting Ladbrokes.
    Unfortunately your account is linked to another account held at Ladbrokes that has already received this promotion. Therefore you would not be eligible to receive this bonus.
    If we can be of any further assistance, please contact us again and we will be more than happy to help you.
    Kind Regards
    Ben
    Ladbrokes promotion Team"


    some angry mails from me followed by


    "Dear Mr Sucker,

    Thank you for your e-mail.
    We have checked with our promotions team again, and we can confirm that your account is definitely linked to another Ladbrokes account that has already received this promotion. Therefore you would not be eligible for
    this promotion.
    This is stated in the full terms and conditions of this promotion, to view these please follow the link below:
    You must register/login in order to see the link.
    We apologise for any inconvenience this has caused you and we hope that this does clarify matters for you. Should you require any further assistance, please contact us again and we will be more than happy to help you.
    Kind regards,
    Sophie
    Customer Services
    Ladbrokes online Gaming"


    Some mails later I got my bonus, played it and closed the account.
    What makes this somewhat interesting is that I had been a customer for over 2 years with a few hundred deposits (most without playing for a bonus) and a bunch of withdrawals.
    And had played another promo the day after which was credited as normal. Also notice how small the bonus was.

    They never told me how I was linked. Maybe IP address, but that can change a couple of times per week.

    Sorry if its a bit off-topic but a somewhat similar case as the OPs which actually never was resolved.
     
  10. Oct 28, 2009
  11. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom

    This is pretty much ON TOPIC. It demonstrates that casinos can GET IT WRONG sometimes, and will NEVER admit their mistake, nor explain it. This means there is no learning process, and on top of this players feel the reasoning is bogus, and the problems are down to other factors, such as "winning too much". It is dreadful that an EXISTING player of some TWO YEARS just NEVER EARNS THE TRUST from the CASINO, yet CASINOS expect that players will trust THEM at their word, and are offended when some players seem NEVER to trust casinos, no matter how good they are.
    In your case, surely the OTHER account is more likely to be the "bogus" one, that should be ineligible for the promotion. Where casinos detect a link to a more recently created account, it should be THAT account that gets investigated, and blocked from bonuses, NOT the account owned by a loyal player of two years.
    I have personal experience of how Ladbrokes constantly "screw up" with their customer service, and their ATTITUDE that they cannot possibly have made a mistake at THEIR end. I awarded them a 6 month suspension from my PC for their trouble, even though they DID settle in the end, and I got my bonus.
    The OPs case though, is different. He is a new player at the casino, and is supposedly linked to other new players, who are alleged to have used collusion to make the bonus +EV, working as a professional syndicate.
    Your experience shows that casinos can detect "connections" that are nothing more than interpretations of co-incidences, a bit like making forecasts from past patterns in random slots.
    The OP should now realise that making a PAB is well worth it, as Max may well see this as nothing more than a wrong conclusion drawn from a set of unfortunate co-incidences.
    Many fraudulent players though, join here and post a complaint, but never follow through. This leads to the suspicion that the complaint has no merit, and is more an attempt to "blackmail" the casino into paying up for fear of bad publicity, than an attempt to right a wrong. The sheer number of fraudulent players posting as "one hit wonders" in the complaint sections to "blackmail" a casino into paying up is what has lead to the imposition of restrictions on new members, which has barred them from posting in this section.
    It is essential that the OP return and PAB, otherwise he will not only get mistaken by Spin Palace as being a member of this syndicate, but will get mistaken as a fraudulent/blackmailing player here. This in turn will STRENGTHEN the case of Spin Palace that he is a member of some syndicate of "professional players/fraudsters".
     
  12. Oct 28, 2009
  13. chipsalex

    chipsalex Banned User

    Occupation:
    Sales rep
    Location:
    Montreal
    I'm sorry I'm not sitting in front of the computer at all times, I had to step away from my computer for a bit.
    And I'm sorry if I didn't follow your procedures I didn't know what I had to do, I am just too pissed of right now that my money isn't here yet. I already spent money on my credit card for my kid and now they won't pay.

    I'm not really sure why you're so hostile with me, I'm sorry if I didn't understand the casinomeister procedure and i'm sorry if I didn't reply sooner.
    I just want my money.

    And no I don't think I'm above everyone else, i just thought that CASINOMEISTER was someone that would help me get the money that I WON fairly.
     
  14. Oct 28, 2009
  15. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    How can you not follow a procedure that is spelled out in front of you while signing up? Are the instructions that screwed up?

    Instructions on how to post complaints were PMd to you when you opened your account. One of the things you were supposed to do was contact the Casino rep - and the link for the reps was provided. I don't mean to be anal about this, but we have a system here and we expect our members to abide by this. When you don't follow these procedures, the complaint sections turn into chaos and dilutes the quality and impact the complaint may have.

    As far as I know, they have evidence of fraud. I'm also aware that your deposits have been returned (or are in the process of being returned).
     
  16. Oct 28, 2009
  17. chipsalex

    chipsalex Banned User

    Occupation:
    Sales rep
    Location:
    Montreal
    PAB has been submitted.
     
  18. Oct 29, 2009
  19. Tengil

    Tengil Senior Member

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    Finland
    I even tried to have them check my history with them, of course they didnt bother to. Forgot to mention that I never would have known of it if I hadnt asked. I probably could have disputed it and had it resolved trough a third party but I didnt have any trust left in them (and no money in play) and would under no circumstances continued to play there.

    After that I have made some small deposits at other casinos but not a single one for the past two months (also partly because Im "learning" PLO at the moment). If you cant trust Ladbrokes, who can you trust?
    32Red is the only casino I trust anymore, they assured me Im a "genuine" player.
     
  20. Oct 29, 2009
  21. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Well, Ladbrokes are accredited, a PAB could be worth it just to clear your name. They are NOT going to change a flawed system until they can be made to see their mistake, and investigate what went wrong.

    If Ladbrokes made this mistake, it shows their has to be an underlying problem, and it MAY come back to haunt you at another casino in the future. In essence, Ladbrokes believe you have multiple accounts with them. Their attitude is that only one can receive a bonus, but OTHER casinos treat multiple accounts as FRAUD, and a reason to confiscate winnings.
    The explanation may be that somebody else in your household also plays at Ladbrokes, but hasn't admitted it. A visitor could also have registered from your house.
    A mistake could also be made if someone with the SAME NAME has registered, and Ladbrokes have assumed you are the same person, perhaps playing from a "second home", such as a summer retreat - that thought it was necessary to open another account, rather than use the one they already had at the other location.

    MY view is that Ladbrokes are INCOMPETENT when dealing with anything out of the ordinary, rather than exhibiting rogue like behaviour.
     
  22. Oct 29, 2009
  23. Tengil

    Tengil Senior Member

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    Finland
    I maybe could have resolved with their "team". But I tend to have a short fuse at times and you know how their support can be. Also could have taken it up with the affiliate I downloaded from, I know he would have helped. But I dont think its worth the hassle. Same goes with PAB, I think its for more serious issues.

    And Im single and last time I checked I was the only one in Finland with "my name". Probably some IP address stuff as it sometimes changes several times per week, altough not lately. But I dont believe it was because of that either.

    And I think your view is correct, incompetence. And they are so slow to deal with. The bonus I played later that week, which was credited normally, actually was worth more. And they didnt lock me out or anything and in the end credited the bonus, so maybe they werent that sure themself;)
     
  24. Oct 30, 2009
  25. chipsalex

    chipsalex Banned User

    Occupation:
    Sales rep
    Location:
    Montreal
    So the answer from the PAB is "Hello,
    Yes, I understand that is was only the deposits that were returned.
    As it happens the casino has shown us that you were involved in fraudulent activity and we support their decisions against you."

    They gave me no reasons just like the casino and just like ecogra.
    Is this really fair, to gamble at a casino and then be told that I am fraud by everyone without ever having any proof or reason shown to me?
    Do you guys really think I'm going to bring them to court for 900$? Of course not!
    This is so unreal it feels like everyone is against me.
    WHAT DO I DO?:confused::confused::confused:
     
  26. Oct 30, 2009
  27. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    They are not going to disclose how they catch fraudsters. I know how they do it, Max does, and just about every operator out there knows it as well. But as soon as fraudsters figure out how they get caught, they adapt using other means.

    "Deposits are refunded and winnings confiscated and accounts locked. We put the player back into the same positions as he was before he started playing with us...."

    So go find something else with your time; don't waste ours, Douglas or Alessandro or whatever your name is :rolleyes:
     
  28. Oct 30, 2009
  29. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    You have exhausted your options really, other than going to court. It is perfectly normal for the casino to show Max & Bryan their evidence, and this does mean that it has been reviewed TWICE, and by INDEPENDENT sets of people. Max and Bryan have many years of experience in this field, and Tex Rees at eCogra has similar levels of experience in dealing with complaints made by players against casinos.

    Since you have only recently joined this forum, and so far have only made this complaint, you don't have any history here, so we cannot judge whether you are a busted fraudster, or an innocent player let down by the system.
    There are other forums though, and you may have signed up through an affiliate, and this affiliate MAY offer a scheme to assist with this kind of problem.

    You may have UNWITTINGLY breached the rules by not understanding you were disregarding the terms and conditions. SOME websites actually PROMOTE casinos through encouraging various practices that casinos consider fraudulent, this is because although players lose out, the WEBSITE makes money by sending the players to the casino. These sites tend to advertise bonuses as a guaranteed income stream, but the REAL money has already been made, just as with the Ponzi schemes, by those who start it, or in the case of casino welcome bonuses, about 5 - 10 years ago.

    The other thing to remember is that webwallets, such as Moneybookers, WILL assist casinos when fraud is being investigated. They (the casino) have detected a "ring" of players, and can ask these processors if THEIR systems support this link. In the case of an accusation of colluding, this would be passing money via peer to peer transfer to other players implicated in the conspiracy. This sharing of funds breaches the rule that play must be with your OWN money (or money borrowed from YOUR credit card or bank overdraft). This is certainly NOT fraud in the usual legal sense, but IS considered as "fraud" by casinos. In legal terms, it is more "breach of contract", rather than fraud.


    Well! blow me - he got banned whilst I was posting. Can't say he wasn't warned though.
     
    1 person likes this.
  30. Oct 30, 2009
  31. Tengil

    Tengil Senior Member

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    Finland
    Well the OP can always go to LGA Malta You must register/login in order to see the link. and probably have the same answer, altough it will likely take a much longer time.

    And taking them to court (if you would want to) would be next to impossible as they are based in Belize..

    A reason why I only play at PLCs based in Europe. If my case had involved some serious cash I would have contacted IBAS, if no solution then a lawyer and given them hell.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2009
  32. Oct 30, 2009
  33. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    They are deemed to be based in Malta, because this is where they hold their gaming licence. Disputes involving gaming would therefore come under the laws of Malta. Belize seems to house a few companies that casinos use as agents to handle the bulk mailing and emailing of promotions, which is where the Belize address comes from. See, for example, Fortune Lounge emailers.

    Max seems to have found more to this case than meets the eye, because the OP has now been banned on the grounds of "Bogus PAB". This most likely means the OP lied to Max when filling out the form, and the lie was uncovered upon investigation with the casino.

    He will now be another statistic on the Bitchmeister Blog.
     
  34. Oct 30, 2009
  35. Tengil

    Tengil Senior Member

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    Finland
    Still think that the main company is based in Belize, altough Malta is as close to a banana republic you can come in EU. LGA is as everyone knows a big joke and Malta has to big economical interests in it. Same goes for all the other licensing jurisdictions.

    So the OP had his best shot with Maxd and Bryan IMO.
     
  36. Oct 30, 2009
  37. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    If Max had lingering doubts, the OP would have been allowed to stay & argue the case, rather than being banned. Not everybody whose PAB fails gets banned.
     
  38. Oct 31, 2009
  39. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    No, no doubts, there is more than enough reason to be satisfied with our conclusions here. The OP is toast and the PAB is in the dustbin. We've got other things to do.
     

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